Hell? Do you believe it exist?

Amica

Amica

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I have had many people tell me that they do not believe there will be Hell in the afterlife, because they believe God (Allah) SWT to be infinately Merciful and because He is so Merciful, they refuse to believe He can punish.

I thought about that, and then came to personal conclusion that existance of Hell does make sense. I understand that God SWT is Merciful. He showed signs of His forgiveness in the Old Testament. Jesus pbuh spoke of the Mercy as well. The Holy Qur'an tells us that God SWT always forgives, is All Forgiving, that His Mercy is faster than His punishment. But, Hell makes sense.

Imagine a newborn baby who died for some reason. Pure. Innocent. Never uttered an evil word, let alone committed a sin. Obviously, this little being is in Heaven. Now, imagine someone like Hitler standing in Heaven next to that beuatiful little baby?
I would get very angry!! What kind of Divine Justice would that be if God SWT would to forgive completely such an evil person, and put him right next to the little innocent being? For this reason, in my personal opinion, Hell makes sense. Certain people do so much evil (like Hitler), that they have stained their souls so much that they do not deserve nothing else but eternal suffering.

What do you believe?
 
Amica said:
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Imagine a newborn baby who died for some reason. Pure. Innocent. Never uttered an evil word, let alone committed a sin. Obviously, this little being is in Heaven.
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Unless you're of the Catholic tradition, they don't know for sure whether such a baby that hasn't been baptised is in heaven or hell.
 
Makes one think. That used to be my arguement with Campus Crusade (I was attending college near their HQ and they would send "newbies" for me to eat). "Seriously, if it is just a matter of faith and Gahandiji turned down conversion three times, he goes to Hell, right?" (asks radar) "Right" (replies the CCC newbie) "And similarly if G!d can do anything, he could have really slowed down Hitler's suicide so that he had time to think, right?" "Right" "Ole Adolph could have repented, and would go to Heaven, right?" "Right" "Then Ghandiji would be in Hell and Hitler in Heaven, I think I will follow in Ghandiji's footsteps".

Made for some fun times, I can tell you! That is precisely why I am an agnostic panentheist mystic!
 
I'm with you, Radar. One of the biggest weaknesses of Christianity, IMHO, is the ability to go to heaven independent of one's actions; as long as you've been "saved", like your Hitler example of repentence.
 
Hi Amica —
Amica said:
I have had many people tell me that they do not believe there will be Hell in the afterlife, because they believe God (Allah) SWT to be infinitely Merciful and because He is so Merciful, they refuse to believe He can punish.
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As God is infinitely Merciful, He is infinitely Just, so that argument founders.

Amica said:
I thought about that, and then came to personal conclusion that existence of Hell does make sense.
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If man is really free, then Hell is a metaphysical and ontological necessity, not for God's sake, but for ours.

Amica said:
Imagine a newborn baby who died for some reason. Pure. Innocent. Never uttered an evil word, let alone committed a sin. Obviously, this little being is in Heaven.
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I believe so, too.

Not to recite the whole catholic position, but just to say what St Augustine thinks or says does not necessarily determine Catholic doctrine, and we have moved away from this position.

Also to point out that Original Sin refers to nature, not the person per se. So we believe that the newborn is as wounded as we all are, rather than the newborn is guilty of a personal sin. According to Catholic doctrine, 'sin' requires the free and informed consent of the will, and as newborns have neither as a fully-functioning faculty, they cannot be held accountable.

Amica said:
Now, imagine someone like Hitler standing in Heaven next to that beautiful little baby?
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OK.

Amica said:
I would get very angry!!
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So there is a limit to what you can forgive?

Amica said:
What kind of Divine Justice would that be if God SWT would to forgive completely such an evil person, and put him right next to the little innocent being?
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Divine Justice, should he undergo a heartfelt conversion and offer real repentance.

In which case, he would be in heaven, but what order of hell he would put himself through, having realised the truth of his actions, I dread to think.

Amica said:
Certain people do so much evil (like Hitler), that they have stained their souls so much that they do not deserve nothing else but eternal suffering.
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Then I hope and pray God does not judge me by your rule.

Hitler's evil was quantitative ... it's the scale that overwhelms us. Doctors decide on euthanasia, which is a form of 'cleansing', every day. Hitler was driven by a flawed vision of humanity; doctors are driven by flawed vision of economics ... I find Hitler more forgivable than a doctor who kills to preserve the bottom line.

Anyone in hell is there because he or she chooses to refuse God, and put themselves there.

Having said that, I don't believe hell to be a place of suffering, I believe hell to be the process of extinction.

God bless,

Thomas
 
"Imagine a newborn baby who died for some reason. Pure. Innocent. Never uttered an evil word, let alone committed a sin. Obviously, this little being is in Heaven. Now, imagine someone like Hitler standing in Heaven next to that beuatiful little baby?
I would get very angry!!"

--> Christianity teaches us that this is exactly what would have happened if Hitler had asked for forgiveness just before he died. (Does anyone disagree with me on this?) I reject any religion that teaches the forgiveness of sin in this way.

I feel comfortable believing such forgiveness does not exist. If you believe as I do, you will have no need to get angry. I firmly believe that Hitler is not standing next to such babies, although Christianity teaches us this very thing. One of Christianity's core teachings is non-accountability, and I encourage everyone to reject this basic Christian teaching.

I have recently become totally disgusted with the Catholic church's constant using of forgiveness to justify decades of child abuse and sexual deviancy among Catholic priest-perverts. Catholic priest-perverts KNOW they will not suffer any punishment (at least that's what they think, but I'm afraid they will suffer punishment when they are negatively judged after they die, just like Revelations says), they just ask for forgiveness of their sins and that's the end of it. (According to my belief system, that is NOT the end ot it, and they are living in an illusion by thinking it is over.) The fact that the Catholic church relies on the idea of the forgiveness of sins, and that the Catholic church has now lost its credibility is a not-so-shining example of how the forgiveness of sins does not work and does not happen.

Amica, you have nothing to worry about.
 
Good post, Nick!

Let me add that there are "outs" for non-Protestant Chrisitanity. "By Faith Alone" is not dogma for pre-Hussite Christians (or at least pre-Luther). Thomas, is this at least defensible?
 
i dont believe in hell as such neither do i believe in some sort of vengeful monster God who will punish sinners for eternity.

most of these stories issue from individuals looking to gain power and control over others through fear and intimidation
 
Hell = the distant position we find our present birth or present circumstance as "extremely Un-desirable".

God's face-time interpersonal reciprocal exchanges are heaven [or any desirable proxy of such]

versus

The funky Karma of taking (one and or countless) repeated births in temporal circumstances that make us out to be foolish doofus chewing the cud of seeking mundane second-rate subsitance.
 
Concerning forgiveness, in a Christian sense isn't it outside our human scope to understand who should be judged? I don't understand how just saying the words would change anything, but if a person fully regret their actions they have changed and are not the same person who committed those acts. Theoretically, if Hitler repented, he saw the error of his ways, I would gladly put him in a heavenly afterlife.
I personally don't understand punishment for punishments sake.
(I really don't want to offend people by saying that I gladly wish Hitler to go to heaven, but it's a matter of principle for me, it should encompass all people, even the worst of us)
 
wil said:
ya think? then why isn't it more popular amongst us?
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For example, why have a death penalty for those who have repented?

If a murderer has repented (and is therefore worthy of heaven) why shouldn't we let him/her back into society? Wouldn't this be their heaven on earth?

I would guess there are many Christians out there that are pro-death penalty (a majority are, per polling), yet believe that the murderer, if he repented and were "saved", would go to heaven.

So, let's kill him off in this existence, but give him access to heaven. :confused:

Unfortunately, human nature is very vengeful, that is why forgiveness isn't more popular among us.
 
Hi--

Thomas said: "So there is a limit to what you can forgive?" in reference to my statement about Hitler being forgiven and seen in Heaven next to a baby who was not like him.

I can forgive without limits, but I still feel a person deserves to serve their time for what they have done. If it is a petty thing, no problem. But an evil act on such a large scale as murder of a person or people, then I think the person should serve in addition to their repenting.

We humans do it all the time. How many times has someone committed evil act and they publically repent in the courtroom as they are listening to their sentencing. Yet, we still make them serve time as appointed by the jury. So, why would not God SWT do the same?

I like the emphasis of religions on forgiveness, and there is no way of knowing what God SWT will forgive and what He will not forgive, but I think sometimes people want to strip God SWT of His power to punish too.
 
IowaGuy said:
For example, why have a death penalty for those who have repented?

If a murderer has repented (and is therefore worthy of heaven) why shouldn't we let him/her back into society? Wouldn't this be their heaven on earth?

I would guess there are many Christians out there that are pro-death penalty (a majority are, per polling), yet believe that the murderer, if he repented and were "saved", would go to heaven.

So, let's kill him off in this existence, but give him access to heaven. :confused:

Unfortunately, human nature is very vengeful, that is why forgiveness isn't more popular among us.
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not all countries are as barbaric as the USA the UK for example does not have the death penalty.

also Gods mercy and forgiveness is infinite but mine certainly is not
 
Hi NiceCupofTea--

Capital punishment might be another topic of its own, but I would not call the U.S. "barbaric." What I call barbaric is when a rapist gets three months of jail time, or a war criminal gets only 8 years for murdering hundreds of people--and even saying he wishes he killed more right in the court room. Now that is barbaric--"made in the Balkans!"

A strong country needs strong laws. One may say that despite harsh sentences for murders or rapes in the U.S., we still have the crimes happening. True. But, it does not mean the laws of the U.S. are barbaric.
 
Take for instance most recent Norway terror attack. The guy killed young people and gets about 20 something years of jail time. Not enough, as he will walk free if he gets to live longer than those jail years and might repeat the same terrorism.

On the other note, he declares himself a Christian and believes in Christianity's supremacy. Since he accepts Jesus as his savior, I wonder what that would mean for his potential afterlife abode.

I think there is no scriptural proof to say that the Divine Mercy is infinite, it's rather man's hope for it. The Bible is clear on the Divine Punishment as in the Apocalypse of John, for example,.
 
Amica said:
I can forgive without limits, but I still feel a person deserves to serve their time for what they have done.
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So, you're personal philosophy is more of an "eye for an eye" rather than "turn the other cheek"?

Since this is in the Abrahamic forum, WWJD? Do you think Jesus would put a murderer to death? Or make them "serve their time"? Or would he simly forgive "seventy times seven times" and not even worry about them serving their time?
 
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