Put that chicken down!

[Etu Malku]

Kaparot - atonement ritual. On the day before Yom Kippur there is a customary atonement ritual, in which a live chicken is swung in circles above the head of a person, in the belief that the person’s sins will be transferred to the chicken, which is then slaughtered (the ritual is, of course, accompanied by special prayers). The chicken is customarily given to the poor or sold, and the money given to charity.

Does anyone think certain rituals like this should be done away with?

 

[seattlegal]

Leviticus 17 HCSB - Forbidden Sacrifices The LORD spoke to - Bible Gateway

Ok, so chickens are not mentioned there...

 

[bananabrain]

you don't *need* to use a chicken, although there are mystical reasons that some insist. you can perform the same ritual on an amount of money worth a chicken, like i just did (so thanks for reminding me). either way, the chicken or the monetary equivalent thereof is donated to feed the poor. do you still think it should be "done away with"?

How to Practice Kapparot for Yom Kippur | eHow.com

oh, also - "waving" the chicken over your head - you're not swinging it around like a hammer thrower; if you are causing distress to the animal, you are violating a number of other halakhot and possibly rendering it non-kosher to boot.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[radarmark]

Nay, my first reaction was holding by feet and whilring around (like a Hoodoo rite)... which would render the chicken distressed and non-koshar.

 

[Etu Malku]

you don't *need* to use a chicken, although there are mystical reasons that some insist. you can perform the same ritual on an amount of money worth a chicken, like i just did (so thanks for reminding me). either way, the chicken or the monetary equivalent thereof is donated to feed the poor. do you still think it should be "done away with"?

How to Practice Kapparot for Yom Kippur | eHow.com

oh, also - "waving" the chicken over your head - you're not swinging it around like a hammer thrower; if you are causing distress to the animal, you are violating a number of other halakhot and possibly rendering it non-kosher to boot.

b'shalom

bananabrain

. . . the chicken, which is then slaughtered

I have heard that the chicken is also starved before the ritual. Yes, I think any ritual containing the destruction or harm of an animal can be discarded these days. I like the monetary equivalent thing better.

 

[bananabrain]

I have heard that the chicken is also starved before the ritual.

good gracious; do they make it put on tefillin while they're at it? some people really are feckin' feathered eejits.

Yes, I think any ritual containing the destruction or harm of an animal can be discarded these days.

except if you're slaughtering it to eat! of course, when moshiah comes and the Temple is rebuilt (may it be speedily in our time) we're going to have to have to have a debate about whether the scapegoat ritual will be re-instituted directly.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Etu Malku]

I guess in some ways there is little difference if the chicken went to a slaughterhouse (where it would live an awful existence) or if it is used in ritual and then used for food.
Good point!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Kaparot - atonement ritual. On the day before Yom Kippur there is a customary atonement ritual, in which a live chicken is swung in circles above the head of a person, in the belief that the person’s sins will be transferred to the chicken, which is then slaughtered (the ritual is, of course, accompanied by special prayers). The chicken is customarily given to the poor or sold, and the money given to charity.

Does anyone think certain rituals like this should be done away with?

I would be extremely surprised if more than the tiniest fraction of a percent or world Jewry participate in such a ritual. So the obvious question is: Why do you ask? Are you looking for a discussion or simply an opportunity to ridicule? If I were forced to render a guess, it would be that the underlying motivation of kapparot is significantly more ethical than the underlying motivation of this thread.

 

[Etu Malku]

I would be extremely surprised if more than the tiniest fraction of a percent or world Jewry participate in such a ritual. So the obvious question is: Why do you ask? Are you looking for a discussion or simply an opportunity to ridicule? If I were forced to render a guess, it would be that the underlying motivation of kapparot is significantly more ethical than the underlying motivation of this thread.

I could take your curiosity a few ways, but I'll take it as a well meaning inquiry.

If I had wanted to 'ridicule' I suppose I would have added a few paragraphs of ridicule to my simple post, but I didn't.

Personally, I found the ritual to be awful for the chicken, but that was before some people here explained it in a different light for me.

 

[bob x]

Well yes, the initial description did sound a bit like you're supposed to whirl the chicken around and around...
Have a thoughtful Yom Kippur, bananabrain and any other observers of the day!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Personally, I found the ritual to be awful for the chicken, but that was before some people here explained it in a different light for me.

Really? I'd be curious to know those explanations that made kapparot other than awful for the chicken. And I remain curious as to the intent of the OP posted by a person who is computer savvy and could have easily acquired references such as this one but apparently chose not to make the effort.

 

[Etu Malku]

Really?

Yeah really.

I'd be curious to know those explanations that made kapparot other than awful for the chicken.

You can read, go back and read what others said here.

And I remain curious as to the intent of the OP posted by a person who is computer savvy and could have easily acquired references such as this one but apparently chose not to make the effort.

Not quite sure what your problem is here, but rest assured my intentions were not malevolent. It seems to me that you are taking this personal, or at least an attack on Jews?

If I had read the article you provided first I would have posted the same question, so I am not following your logic here, or lack of.

The birds may suffer while they are handled. In some places in Israel and the United States, chickens are sold on street corners for this ceremony, and not every merchant takes proper care of his chickens during this period. The birds are frequently cooped up in baskets, and some merchants neglect to give them sufficient food or water.

 

[bananabrain]

I guess in some ways there is little difference if the chicken went to a slaughterhouse (where it would live an awful existence) or if it is used in ritual and then used for food.

if your concern is with animal rights (a laudable aim) then i suggest you might find more to object to in south-east asian temple ceremonies than in the jewish community; not that we should be exempt from such scrutiny, perish the thought, there have been too many high-profile and embarrassing lapses in the american strictly-orthodox community, but when halakhic procedure is *properly* followed, there should be *no* appreciable distress caused to the animals concerned; that is part of the point of shehita as an ethical procedure.

I would be extremely surprised if more than the tiniest fraction of a percent or world Jewry participate in such a ritual.

well, unless you are suggesting that ultra-orthodox, strictly orthodox and modern orthodox jews, not to mention sephardis, constitute a "tiny fraction" of world jewry, i think you would be *extremely* surprise. so the obvious question is: why would you be surprised that people who actually observe rituals are *not* a tiny minority?

I'd be curious to know those explanations that made kapparot other than awful for the chicken.

how is holding a chicken by the body and then waving it at a moderate speed in a circle over someone's head "awful"? i mean, most people pick up chickens by the *feet*.

The birds may suffer while they are handled. In some places in Israel and the United States, chickens are sold on street corners for this ceremony, and not every merchant takes proper care of his chickens during this period. The birds are frequently cooped up in baskets, and some merchants neglect to give them sufficient food or water.

this is a violation of the halakhah.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Etu Malku]

if your concern is with animal rights (a laudable aim) then i suggest you might find more to object to in south-east asian temple ceremonies than in the jewish community; not that we should be exempt from such scrutiny, perish the thought, there have been too many high-profile and embarrassing lapses in the american strictly-orthodox community, but when halakhic procedure is *properly* followed, there should be *no* appreciable distress caused to the animals concerned; that is part of the point of shehita as an ethical procedure.

The reason I brought it up when I did was because that was the date which this ritual would be practiced, I didn't just randomly pick a jewish ritual to pick on them.

how is holding a chicken by the body and then waving it at a moderate speed in a circle over someone's head "awful"? i mean, most people pick up chickens by the *feet*.

Any articles I've read included more than just spinning the chicken over head.

The birds may suffer while they are handled. In some places in Israel and the United States, chickens are sold on street corners for this ceremony, and not every merchant takes proper care of his chickens during this period. The birds are frequently cooped up in baskets, and some merchants neglect to give them sufficient food or water.

this is a violation of the halakhah.

Are you saying this isn't done, that people have made this up, or that it's just against halakhah laws?

 

[bananabrain]

The reason I brought it up when I did was because that was the date which this ritual would be practiced, I didn't just randomly pick a jewish ritual to pick on them.

i realise that, even if JS doesn't.

Any articles I've read included more than just spinning the chicken over head.

journalists are always more interested in the squawk factor, if you'll excuse the pun, than the actual purpose of the ritual.

Are you saying this isn't done, that people have made this up, or that it's just against halakhah laws?

no, i'm pretty sure it's done, i'm pretty sure it isn't necessary and i'm dam' sure it's against halakhah. most of the people who are doing it in an unethical fashion are almost certainly the sort of people who aren't concerned with anything but the narrow concerns of their own sort of people; we're talking about the sort of idiots that will stone cars that drive through their neighbourhoods on Shabbat, regardless of the rather more important halakhic principle that danger to life supersedes concern for Shabbat - if you stone a car, you're going to endanger life, you near-sighted beardy little morons. don't even get me started on people that think like this, but there are far too many of them.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Originally posted by bananabrain
most of the people who are doing it in an unethical fashion are almost certainly the sort of people who aren't concerned with anything but the narrow concerns of their own sort of people; we're talking about the sort of idiots that will stone cars that drive through their neighbourhoods on Shabbat, regardless of the rather more important halakhic principle that danger to life supersedes concern for Shabbat - if you stone a car, you're going to endanger life, you near-sighted beardy little morons.

Not to mention that it constitutes work: picking up a rock, then throwing it (then the cleaning up after the accident that said rock-throwing causes.)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[bananabrain]

of course, sometimes it is the chicken that decides who gets inscribed in the Book of Life.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[bob x]

Not to mention that it constitutes work: picking up a rock, then throwing it (then the cleaning up after the accident that said rock-throwing causes.)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

I think the kind of people b-brain is talking about would decide that it starts being "work" and, therefore, the kind of thing they just can't do, when it comes to the "cleaning up afterwards" part

Happy Sukkoth, b-brain (loved the chicken picture!). How do you observe it? A camping trip out to the boonies would be a modernistic take on it, and I may manage to do that this weekend, within the span of Sukkoth though not specifically for that reason.

 

[Etu Malku]

of course, sometimes it is the chicken that decides who gets inscribed in the Book of Life.

b'shalom

bananabrain

LOL!! Excellent . . .
This is by far my favorite forum for discussing religion!!

 

[bananabrain]

I think the kind of people b-brain is talking about would decide that it starts being "work" and, therefore, the kind of thing they just can't do, when it comes to the "cleaning up afterwards" part

Happy Sukkoth, b-brain (loved the chicken picture!). How do you observe it? A camping trip out to the boonies would be a modernistic take on it, and I may manage to do that this weekend, within the span of Sukkoth though not specifically for that reason.

i thought the picture was appropriate!

we observe sukkoth by building a sukkah in our back garden (in this case, out of wooden trellises lashed together with garden wire, with clear plastic sheeting round the walls and a bamboo matting roof, complete with fairy lights, decorations by the mini-bananas and enough room to seat about 16; i'll try and post a picture) plus, of course, there's plenty of going to synagogue and yelling "hosha'ana" whilst waving palm branches and the other three species; sukkoth is actually one of the most kabbalistic festivals, as the arba'a minim (lulab and etrogh) are actually a "spark-catching" array that allows a tiqqun for the sin of adam, where we sweep up the sparks from our astral bodies and return them to the higher worlds.

then, on the next friday night, it's etrogh-up-the-jacksie for the chicken and a bloody good dinner, but other people i think use them to make jam.

b'shalom

bananabrain