Do Jews and Christians worship the same God?

[Amica]

I would like to hear from Christians and Jews only. I know that most of the Christians I know would say that their God is the same God who revealed the Message to Abraham and Moses, but they believe that Jesus is "God's" incarnation. Do Jews view this to be correct? Can one agree on worship the same God, yet have such difference of opinion in regards to Jesus?

Also, Protestant (or rather Western) Christianity tends to promote "God is Love" and 100% Mercy of God. If Christians believe so, how do they go about reading in the Old Testament where God has punished humanity for various reasons, such as through the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. According to the Old Testament, "God" orders killing too at times as cited below. Now, I know that many Christians would say that the commandments from the Old Testament are to be not followed by Christians because Jesus became their law, even though Jesus said that he did not come to change, but confirm the Mosaic Law. How does that whole issue play into worship of the same God?

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

 

[Amica]

And I know, Bananabrain, will criticize me again saying Jews do not do the acts cited above I know, I know... But unfortunately, those verses are in the Old Testament. The Question is then, if Christian God is 100% Love and Mercy, the same God of the Old Testaement, then how come any of those verses could even appear in the previous Revelation of the Bible (the Old Testament)? Why would God change so quickly His Divine Opinions?

 

[wil]

I find it so interesting that we have fundie atheist literalists...

As a Christian I am totally comfortable that the bible is not G!ds word, but man's word about his interpretation of G!d, and a whole lot of blaming G!d for various atrocities and actions.

But beyond that, you've got a great premise for discussion if you didn't continue with all the typical cut and paste clap trap (did you post that on all those dozens of sites or did you cut and paste and not give the folks that actually came up with it credit?)

 

[Joedjr]

Hi, Hmm reminds me of a kinda similar thread started a bit ago. http://www.interfaith.org/forum/do-these-commands-8840.html

 

[Dream]

Hi Amica. Here is a Christian-of-protestant-parentage point of view.

• Deuteronomy 17:12 -- the preceding 2 verses establish that this refers to judgments, when a case had been found to difficult for lower judges and had to be passed up the chain. The priest was the final arbiter, so their decision had to be final. The implication is that a lower judge's decision was not final. Also, just any old priest couldn't have you killed or boss you around.
• Exodus 22:17 -- its debated what a sorceress was, however this law was for the land of Israel only. Jesus ministry has a far wider scope and while it also does not condone sorcery it doesn't condemn sorceresses to death, just her actions. I have never heard of a case where Israelis killed someone over this, but I guess why that might be further down.
• Leviticus 20:13 -- we had a big discussion in another thread where I learned a lot about this topic. Its similar to the previous point, where the law applied in the land of Israel but not elsewhere. Also its debatable whether this is talking about homosexuals or pimps and slavers or priests of male sex shrines. The scholarship is slightly beyond me though I can recognize (using concordances) where the translation problem may be.
• Leviticus 20:13 -- land of Israel. Jews have to figure this one out.
• Leviticus 20:10 -- adultery is a sin in Christianity, too. In Judaism its a sin 'Punishable' by death but the prior commandment to judge fairly is so overriding and the additional requirements of proving guilt are such that they rarely if ever executed anyone for this. (There is ultimately a divine purpose behind that.) If you take the case of Tamar as an example, she was clearly guilty but it was unfair to kill her, so she wasn't killed. Genesis 38:26 While verbally the law accuses the woman for her sin, in practicality it condemns the sin but saves the woman. I mention this at the end but in Christianity Jesus does no sin, yet his body is condemned to die; so the law and Christianity are in sync there through a kind of dual example.
• Exodus 22:19 -- this was about not having sex with animals. Christianity also does not approve of that. I think you were looking for a different scripture verse.
• 2 Chronicles 15:12-13 -- This was not in the book of the Law but in Chronicles, and it was something King Asa decided during his reign. Asa had a competing king, King Asa Baasha. They were like North and South Korea, two kings and two countries that had common history.
• Deuteronomy 13:13-19 -- This is for the land of Israel only, not for Christians to worry about. The requirement was that guilt had to be established before anything could happen, and that town -- the town in question -- had to be in support of the person in their wickedness. We are talking about a town that boldly supported wickedness, opposing the law -- a renegade town. If no one would testify, then they were not to attack the town.
• Isaiah 14:21 -- Here is a prophet in protest against the king of Babylon and talking about iniquity. I think iniquity refers to the kind of problems that get passed on from parents to children. For instance in Uganda there have been some famous cases of child sacrifice. If that practice were to catch on and become a tradition I think it would be called iniquity. Its both a sin and something inherited. The prophecy is not a law.

Why would God change so quickly His Divine Opinions?

I think God doesn't require Christians to kill the sinner even verbally, because the sin is seen as a battle between the flesh and the spirit. This is one of the points made through Jesus death, but its also implicitly implied in the way that the law treats lawbreakers. Verbally the person was condemned to death -- except that they weren't actually killed on the basis of fairness in judgment. You might say there were never enough witnesses to kill anyone. Back to Christianity: in the case of Jesus who never sinned, his flesh is killed on the basis of his witness plus the Father's while his actions are not condemned. You have a two witness system then of Jesus and Moses establishing that there are forces of good and evil at war within the person, so you want to condemn the evil but save the person. Rather than a change of divine opinion it is a two direction approach to the same statement.

 

[Servetus]

I would like to hear from Christians and Jews only. I know that most of the Christians I know would say that their God is the same God who revealed the Message to Abraham and Moses, but they believe that Jesus is "God's" incarnation. Do Jews view this to be correct? Can one agree on worship the same God, yet have such difference of opinion in regards to Jesus?

Do Jews and Christians worship the same God?

I am speaking as a highly independent, that is to say, unorthodox Christian (Protestant background), and would give a qualified "yes" to the question, except to say that we obviously worship the God very differently. “After the way which they [members of the Jewish establishment] call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers,” said St. Paul, when questioned, and that sums it up rather nicely for me, despite his having gone on to say that he believed all things which were written in the law and the prophets and, at this point, I am not quite sure that I do.

Concerning the issue of the apparent discrepancies, or incongruities, between scriptures, or Testaments, I, as what my Muslim friends call a "Person of Book," might be more accurately called a person of the remarkably abbreviated book. I consider much of the Law, Prophets and Writings, that is to say, what Christians call the "Old" Testament, as apocryphal (if not to me irrelevant), though clearly interesting, and, until further investigation, I only accept Micah 6:8 as having been absolutely, unquestionably and undeniably vouchsafed from above.

This reminder from Prophet Micah combined with Jesus' (reported) Sermon on the Mount seem sufficient for my ethical education and, when I am either wanting or needing a side trip into the more recondite, transcendental aspects of the way, I do sometimes try to plow through St. John's gospel. With that said, I do also tend to consider much of the "New" Testament as more or less apocryphal (but still quite often instructive).

My answer, then, is a qualified "yes." I, Servetus, have spoken, though let it be understood that my opinions are fluid and subject to change at any given moment.

 

[Amica]

Thank you for your replies. Interesting points of view regarding the OT.

Dream, thanks for clarification. My question would be: why would God exempt Christians from some of what He may have ordered/told Jews to do? In some of the answers you posted, you would indicate that something was only for the land of Israel? Was not Jesus living in Israel too? I thought Jesus said he was preaching to the lost of Israel?

Wil, I actually have KJ Bible and read it from time to time (English), both OT and NT. The verses I paste copy are from online true, but that is only because it is easier to word/sentence search online. I do the same when I need to reference the Qur'an: I would remember something from the book, but may not remember the exact number of chapter or verse. It's easier to find it online.

Joedjr, my apologies if there was a similiar topic. Did not look closely and there are longer periods of time that I am not on this forum.

Anyway, if Christians believe Jesus to be God, and Jews do not, then would not then mean they do not believe in the same God?

 

[Servetus]

Anyway, if Christians believe Jesus to be God, and Jews do not, then would not then mean they do not believe in the same God?

These are religious matters. Being too logical stymies discussion and spoils all of the fun:

 

[wil]

Wil, I actually have KJ Bible and read it from time to time (English), both OT and NT. The verses I paste copy are from online true, but that is only because it is easier to word/sentence search online. I do the same when I need to reference the Qur'an: I would remember something from the book, but may not remember the exact number of chapter or verse. It's easier to find it online.

Seriously? You know that is funny because it reminds me of my mom telling me that by saying that I am only fooling myself, as G!d sees everything...

Now I don't buy that any more than you do, the G!d sees everything, but you really expect me to believe that you found each one of those statements in your KJV independently and then just happenned to find a half dozen websites with the exact same selection??

Yes and I believe given enough time monkeys will type something legible too.

Sheesh....

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"A man or a woman who is a medium or a wizard shall be put to death; they shall be stoned with stones, their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:27

--> Wow, that's downright scary. I read tarot cards. Now every Christian and Jew thinks they have a right to kill me, huh?

 

[Dream]

Dream, thanks for clarification. My question would be: why would God exempt Christians from some of what He may have ordered/told Jews to do? In some of the answers you posted, you would indicate that something was only for the land of Israel? Was not Jesus living in Israel too? I thought Jesus said he was preaching to the lost of Israel?

Keep in mind my method is contemporary. It is certainly missing pieces of information.

Correct he was preaching to Israel. Many of Israel's laws are only for those living in its land, and Jesus is clearly part of Israel. When he preaches he often talks about gentiles to Jewish people. He emphasizes certain lessons and expands upon those. Its fairly cryptic reading, not simple, easy to misunderstand, but interesting.

Amica -- why would God exempt Christians from some of what He may have ordered/told Jews to do?
The main thing is he didn't exempt Jews from doing those things, and to do so would be inconsistent. I see no problem with God giving a superset of laws to a group of people and not to everyone else as long as the principles are consistent for everyone. The principles are the law that matters most, and both religions recognize this (I think). Its like christians have a different hair color, but the blood is the same color. James, the surviving brother of Jesus says the perfect law of liberty is reflected in the written law. This suggests there is a law reflected within the law, and that is the law that christians attempt to follow in common with jews. Christians aren't exempt from those.

 

[Saltmeister]

Now, I know that many Christians would say that the commandments from the Old Testament are to be not followed by Christians because Jesus became their law, even though Jesus said that he did not come to change, but confirm the Mosaic Law. How does that whole issue play into worship of the same God?

We're exempt from many of the commandments listed in the Tanakh/OT even from the perspective of Jewish Law. Paul was just echoing a view that later became accepted by the majority of rabbis. The Apostolic Decree given by the Jerusalem Church is similar to the Seven Noahide Laws (the omitted laws are implied by common sense).

Anyway, if Christians believe Jesus to be God, and Jews do not, then would not then mean they do not believe in the same God?

Judaism is the primary tradition. The God of the Christians is whoever the God of the Jews is: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Christianity inherits from Judaism. It is not independent.

The idea of Jesus being God is heavily influenced by the ideas of Philo Judaeus, a Jewish philosopher. This is where we get the idea of the Logos (a Greek word) in the opening passage of the Gospel of John. Philo Judaeus described how God influenced the world through His words (in the Tanakh and Torah) and through the prophets, rabbis and sages who spoke on His behalf.

Philo Judaeus wasn't the only one who had this idea, but he tends to be famous for it. What Philo Judaeus and like-minded people were trying to depict was that the prophets, rabbis and sages were "emanations of God." What the authors of the Gospels and epistles were talking about when linking Jesus with God was this same idea, not the modern one Christians have of literally equating Jesus with God. The prophets, rabbis and sages, like Jesus were also called "sons of God" or "gods" (see Psalms 82:1-6). What was meant by that passage in Psalms was that the prophets, rabbis and sages had direct authority from God, not that they were really "gods." When they spoke, it was as if God was speaking.

This theology became confused and distorted over the centuries into equating Jesus exactly with God, rather than just being an "emanation." When we examine the history of an idea, we come to a better understanding of what the author really meant.

The link between Jesus and God was never set in stone. It has always been an interpretation. Christians over the centuries have disagreed with the idea -- Servetus being one of them, and I don't mean the one on this forum.

Belief in the same God as the Jews is fundamental to Christianity. The other stuff is commentary and poetry.

 

[Servetus]

Christians over the centuries have disagreed with the idea -- Servetus being one of them, and I don't mean the one on this forum.

Yes but he, the one on this forum, won't mind being included. Good, informative post, by the way. Cheers.

 

[Dream]

Good, informative post, by the way. Cheers.

Yeah. Nice one.

 

[Servetus]

Yeah. Nice one.

While I'm at it, I forgot -though I did intend- to say that I found this insightful too:

James, the surviving brother of Jesus says the perfect law of liberty is reflected in the written law. This suggests there is a law reflected within the law, and that is the law that christians attempt to follow in common with jews. Christians aren't exempt from those.

That is well worth considering. Thank you.

 

[Joedjr]

Judaism is the primary tradition. The God of the Christians is whoever the God of the Jews is: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Christianity inherits from Judaism. It is not independent.

The idea of Jesus being God is heavily influenced by the ideas of Philo Judaeus, a Jewish philosopher. This is where we get the idea of the Logos (a Greek word) in the opening passage of the Gospel of John. Philo Judaeus described how God influenced the world through His words (in the Tanakh and Torah) and through the prophets, rabbis and sages who spoke on His behalf.

Philo Judaeus wasn't the only one who had this idea, but he tends to be famous for it. What Philo Judaeus and like-minded people were trying to depict was that the prophets, rabbis and sages were "emanations of God." What the authors of the Gospels and epistles were talking about when linking Jesus with God was this same idea, not the modern one Christians have of literally equating Jesus with God. The prophets, rabbis and sages, like Jesus were also called "sons of God" or "gods" (see Psalms 82:1-6). What was meant by that passage in Psalms was that the prophets, rabbis and sages had direct authority from God, not that they were really "gods." When they spoke, it was as if God was speaking.

This theology became confused and distorted over the centuries into equating Jesus exactly with God, rather than just being an "emanation." When we examine the history of an idea, we come to a better understanding of what the author really meant.

Keep in mind my method is contemporary. It is certainly missing pieces of information.

I'm thinking that this history lesson from the Salt is possibly some of the information that the Dream has been missing.
I wonder what the Thomasonian take is on this?

 

[Amica]

Thank you all for replies. I have a bit more understanding of the matter, although I have a desire to learn more. Perhaps a visit to a church or a synagogue might help for educational purposes.

Wil, you said: "Now I don't buy that any more than you do, the G!d sees everything, but you really expect me to believe that you found each one of those statements in your KJV independently and then just happenned to find a half dozen websites with the exact same selection??"

Like I said, I read the Bible from time to time. I remember stuff. I cannot say that I 100% remember all the quotes, but I may remember words and issues that strike me as interesting. When doing search, I may type in something like " old testament heifer verses" and may get quotes I need to reference what I remember reading from my Bible. I may quote exactly as I read if I have the Bible opened right away.
Regarding the Qur'an, it is easier to remember. Sometimes I am able to remember a whole sentence or most of the sentence I am trying to locate but I do not remember the chapter I originally read it from. Or I would do the same I do when I try to online search the Bible. I may type in something like: "quran adultery verse" and get some references.
Try it sometime

 

[Amica]

By the way, memorizing whole of the Qur'an chapters is not uncommon. The longest one I memorize as a whole is about 19 verses. Understanding general meaning of the interpretation helps me quick search it should I need to quote a particular chapter. The amazing thing is, once you learn a chapter/surah from the Noble Qur'an in Arabic language, you cannot forget it. I struggle with translations (to memorize them as well). With the Holy Bible, memorizing is difficult no matter the language (English, Bosnian whichever I try). That is why regarding the Holy Bible I memorize words, topics or themes. It helps me later to locate what I read.

 

[Dream]

Certain parts are easier to memorize than others. I don't know if that is significant. Interesting about the memorization. Is there a system you use to memorize?

 

[Ben Masada]

I would like to hear from Christians and Jews only. I know that most of the Christians I know would say that their God is the same God who revealed the Message to Abraham and Moses, but they believe that Jesus is "God's" incarnation. Do Jews view this to be correct? Can one agree on worship the same God, yet have such difference of opinion in regards to Jesus?

No, Jews and Christians do not worship the same God. Gentiles know not what they worship as their idea of God is in terms of Hellenistic plurality. Jews worship God in spirit, the absolutely Unity of God Who is Spirit. (John 4:22-24)

The Parable About the Dialogue Between Two Peoples

The most common method used by Jesus to teach was by means of parables. And here is one about a dialogue between two peoples: The Jewish People and the Gentiles at the well of Jacob between Jesus and the Samaritan woman. While Jesus would represent his People, the Jewish People, the Samaritan woman would represent the Gentiles. It is found in John 4:22-24.

Then, Jesus would bring up the subject of worshiping the Father. That Gentiles knew not what they worship, while the Jews worship what they know. And that's why salvation comes from the Jews. Notice that he did not say, from one among the Jews, but from the Jews, period.

Then he proceeded by saying that we, the Jews, worship the Father in spirit and in truth, and, for that reason the Father seeks such to worship Him. Why? Because God is a Spirit; and those who worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

Now, if you read Isaiah 8:20, you will see that Jesus was in tune with how we ought to worship the Lord. "To the Law and the Testimony; if we don't speak (or worship) according to this method, it's because there is no light (or truth) in us." To the Law and the Testimony means to the letter and the Spirit. To what it is written and to what it means.

Ben