Do Jews and Christians worship the same God?

Well, I believe that Muhammed had it right. G!d, and there is only one, is worshipped by Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. In different ways and to different extents, obviously. In addition, I believe that others (Chuangzi, Ghandiji or Black Elk, for example) had a clear idea of the unity which is the spirit which is G!d. So one can come to the house with many doors from all kinds of paths.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
Well, I believe that Muhammed had it right. G!d, and there is only one, is worshipped by Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. In different ways and to different extents, obviously. In addition, I believe that others (Chuangzi, Ghandiji or Black Elk, for example) had a clear idea of the unity which is the spirit which is G!d. So one can come to the house with many doors from all kinds of paths.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!


Does it mean then, from your views above, that the Psalmist was wrong to claim that the Truth was entrusted to Israel only, and to no other people on earth? (Psalm 147:19,20)
Ben
 
"According to the medieval adage, Doctrina Christi revelat quod Moysi velat; Christianity is the revelation of the interior mystery of Judaism. Somehow it is the disclosure, in broad daylight, of the 'esoterism' of the Mosaic religion, of what was 'most secret' in it. It is likewise so in itself: for the six hundred thirty-two prescriptions of the Jewish law, Jesus Christ substitutes the love of God and neighbour. The multitude of extremely complex ritual obligations are replaced by faith in Christ and participation in the sevenfold sacraments. Even the law of the Sabbath can be transgressed, if the good of man requires it. What matters is the 'religion of the heart', the one concerned with a being's interiority, for "the kingdom of God is within you", and it is not an exterior worship, reduced to its own exteriority, which pleases God, but, in the psalmist's words, the "sacrifice of a broken spirit", a sacrifice realized by the death of Christ. Also, it is the pure heart which will see God." Jean Borella, Gnosis and Anti-Christian Gnosis

God bless

Thomas
 
Ben, my friend, 'fraid so, if one is a literalist. If not, "Truth" does not mean "Worship as one of the Chosen People". I believe that is in accord with the Talmudic concept of The Seven Noahide Laws. As long as one who is not of the People does not commit idolatry, murder, theft, blasphemy, eat living creatures, adultery (or other isurey bi'ah), and has courts, they are welcome in redemption.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
God bless


"According to the medieval adage, Doctrina Christi revelat quod Moysi velat; Christianity is the revelation of the interior mystery of Judaism. Somehow it is the disclosure, in broad daylight, of the 'esoterism' of the Mosaic religion, of what was 'most secret' in it. It is likewise so in itself: for the six hundred thirty-two prescriptions of the Jewish law, Jesus Christ substitutes the love of God and neighbour. The multitude of extremely complex ritual obligations are replaced by faith in Christ and participation in the sevenfold sacraments. Even the law of the Sabbath can be transgressed, if the good of man requires it. What matters is the 'religion of the heart', the one concerned with a being's interiority, for "the kingdom of God is within you", and it is not an exterior worship, reduced to its own exteriority, which pleases God, but, in the psalmist's words, the "sacrifice of a broken spirit", a sacrifice realized by the death of Christ. Also, it is the pure heart which will see God." Jean Borella, Gnosis and Anti-Christian Gnosis

Thomas


Christianity is rather the revelation of mysterious Hellenistic theology. Jesus did not come to abolish or change anything of the Mosaic laws, but to confirm everything down to the letter, even down to the dot of the letter. See Mat. 5:17-19.

You must mean the 613 commandments and not 632 prescriptions of Jewish laws. Jesus confirmed them all and even said in a parable, that to escape hell one must listen to Moses. (Luke 16:29-31) This of substituting them for love of God and one's neighbour is a cop out to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

The Sabbath was not a commandment bound upon Gentiles but upon Jews only. And indeed it can be transgressed if to save a life is the option. That's called the concept of "Pichuach nephesh."

And to say that the only thing that matters is religion of the heart, is another strawman strategy to promote the pauline policy to vandalize with Judaism. The only way to show one's religion of the heart is by behaving according to Law.

God is not like a man to be pleased. To feel pleased is an emotion, and God is not activated by emotions. God is Spirit, and the only way to relate to Him is in a spiritual manner. That's why Jesus said that Gentiles know not what they worship, while Jews do. (John 4:22-24)

Jesus did not sacrifice himself for none. He was crucified on political charges for having been proclaimed king of the Jews in a Roman province, which was the Land of Israel during Roman occupation. Hence his verdict engraved on that plaque nailed on the top of his cross.
Ben
 
Ben, my friend, 'fraid so, if one is a literalist. If not, "Truth" does not mean "Worship as one of the Chosen People". I believe that is in accord with the Talmudic concept of The Seven Noahide Laws. As long as one who is not of the People does not commit idolatry, murder, theft, blasphemy, eat living creatures, adultery (or other isurey bi'ah), and has courts, they are welcome in redemption.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!


Very good, Radarmark, and I do agree with you, albeit not that the Psalmist was wrong in Psalm 147:19,20. But you have not answered my question about atonement of what, and by what or who. Can I still expect
that you will?
Ben
 
I did, I thought (but now both your post asking and my reply ate missing from this thread). I did not use the term. At-one-ment is part and parcel of livning the good and faithful life.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
Dream,
Not much of a system really. I would study to memorize it like I would any other text. Read a verse a couple of times, then try to mentally repeat it. Move on to the next one: read couple of times then repeat mentally from the beginning. Until I memorize the whole thing. And once I am able to mentally recite it without paper assistance, then I am good to go. Surahs I learned as child I have never forgotten. In Arab countries there are children who memorize all of the Qur'an. Trully amazing. I have tried memorizing poems and other stuff. It may stay in my memory a while, but I lose it say after several months. Qur'an... The Book is a different story.
 
Christianity is rather the revelation of mysterious Hellenistic theology...
A common but erroneous assumption. It's easily demonstrable that the content of the Revelation in Christ was utterly contrary to contemporary Hellenist belief, which follows a dualism, rather than an Hebraic holism. Origen'd dispute with Celsus evidences this, as does the Church's rejection of Marcion and Montanus, for example.

Justin Martyr believed that if what Christ said was true, then the doctrine must be accessible to reason — that it can be argued philosophically.

As Christianity spread beyond Jewish borders, the mythopoeic methodology of the Jews would not suffice to adequately express its metaphysical content — it was too isolationist.

Jesus did not come to abolish or change anything of the Mosaic laws, but to confirm everything down to the letter, even down to the dot of the letter. See Mat. 5:17-19.
Rather He revealed the spirit that transcends the letter.

Jesus confirmed them all and even said in a parable, that to escape hell one must listen to Moses. (Luke 16:29-31)
He also said "before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58) and "I am the way the truth and the life" (John 14:6). He said listen to me.

This of substituting them for love of God and one's neighbour is a cop out to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.
Rubbish ... see below.

And to say that the only thing that matters is religion of the heart, is another strawman strategy ...
So the Shema Israel is a strawman strategy?

God is not like a man to be pleased. To feel pleased is an emotion, and God is not activated by emotions.
So the word of the Lord in Osee 11:1-4, for example, is nonsense?
"... Because Israel was a child, and I loved him: and I called my son out of Egypt ... And I was like a foster father to Ephraim, I carried them in my arms: and they knew not that I healed them. I will draw them with the cords of Adam, with the bands of love... "

God is Spirit, and the only way to relate to Him is in a spiritual manner.
In spirit and in truth — that is with the whole body, the whole person.

That's why Jesus said that Gentiles know not what they worship, while Jews do. (John 4:22-24)
But not very well, or rather, they were badly led.

God bless,

Thomas
 
A common but erroneous assumption. It's easily demonstrable that the content of the Revelation in Christ was utterly contrary to contemporary Hellenist belief, which follows a dualism, rather than an Hebraic holism. Origen'd dispute with Celsus evidences this, as does the Church's rejection of Marcion and Montanus, for example.

To pick up a Jewish man and to make of him a demigod had always been a Hellenistic theology. Jesus was a Jewish man, whose Faith was Judaism in which there is no such a thing as the Hellenistic mythology of a demigod or man god.
Justin Martyr believed that if what Christ said was true, then the doctrine must be accessible to reason — that it can be argued philosophically.[/quote]

Jesus did say the truth because he spoke according to the Law and the Testimony, which is the test in Isaiah 8:20 for those who claim Divine inspiration. But 80 percent of what is claimed about Jesus, was not said by him.

As Christianity spread beyond Jewish borders, the mythopoeic methodology of the Jews would not suffice to adequately express its metaphysical content — it was too isolationist.

Christianity did not at all spread from within the Jewish borders, but from the borders of the Greek city of Antioch, where Christians were for the first time called Christinas. (Acts 11:26) And the reason was because Paul spent there a whole year teaching that Jesus was Christ.

Rather He revealed the spirit that transcends the letter.

The spirit that transcends the letter is revealed in Psalm 119. The whole chapter. Read it. Jesus rather warned us all to observe the Law according to the letter. Read Mat. 5:17-19.

He also said "before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58) and "I am the way the truth and the life" (John 14:6). He said listen to me.

That was never said by Jesus because he was a Jewish man and not a Greek demigod. Besides, the proof that the whole chapter 8 of John was a forgery by the Church is in the contradiction that in verse 31, Jesus was speaking to the Jews that had believed in him, and in verse 44, he called those Jews children of the devil. Any one can see the antisemitic hand of the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the book of John. Besides, Luke reports about John as having been an unlearned and ignorant man. As far as I am concerned, illiterate men do not write books. That's just another evidence that Hellenists, former disciples of Paul wrote the gospels.

So the Shema Israel is a strawman strategy?

I meant to say that "religion of the heart" is a cop out because there is no religion which is not of the heart. Therefore, the expression is a stupid redoundance with the intent to promote Replacement Theology, which is translated as vandalism of Judaism by Christianity.

So the word of the Lord in Osee 11:1-4, for example, is nonsense?
"... Because Israel was a child, and I loved him: and I called my son out of Egypt ... And I was like a foster father to Ephraim, I carried them in my arms: and they knew not that I healed them. I will draw them with the cords of Adam, with the bands of love... "

No, there is no nonsense. Nonsense is found in the lack of understanding of metaphorical language by some people. The child and son are Israel as a People who indeed were in Egypt at the beginning before they became an organized nation, and not as one individual among the people. "Foster father, arms, hands of love," all to be interpreted metaphoricall. Jesus was never in Egypt, unless you wanna dig another contradiction between Matthew and Luke.

In spirit and in truth — that is with the whole body, the whole person.

What is the truth, do you know what is the truth? Jesus said that it is the Word of God. (John 17:17) Now, do you know whom was the Word of God given to? Read Psalm 147:19,20. To Israel only and to no other people on earth.

But not very well, or rather, they were badly led.

In that case, Jesus either lied or did not know what he was talking about. Because that's what you seem to imply.

Ben
 
Justin Martyr believed that if what Christ said was true, then the doctrine must be accessible to reason — that it can be argued philosophically. FROM THOMAS

Jesus did say the truth because he spoke according to the Law and the Testimony, which is the test in Isaiah 8:20 for those who claim Divine inspiration. But 80 percent of what is claimed about Jesus, was not said by him.

This may be true, but that, IMHO, is not what Thomas was getting at. Christianity (if one takes the long view that includes tradition, as Thomas and I do) is quite contrary to the Neo-platonic and Gnostic trends of Greek thought in Christianity's first centuries. It is not an expression of a "mysterious Hellenistic theology" from that perspective.

Christianity did not at all spread from within the Jewish borders, but from the borders of the Greek city of Antioch, where Christians were for the first time called Christinas. (Acts 11:26) And the reason was because Paul spent there a whole year teaching that Jesus was Christ.

It is important to remember that the Pauline thread is part of a larger tapestry. The cities of Antioch, Alexandria, and Rome had (certainly after the Fall of the Second Temple) more Jews and, likely, more Jewish sympathizers to Jesus than your remarks take into consideration. Paul certainly did not mean to, nor IMHO re-invent a Hellenistic theology. But even if he was going that way (debatable) the Pure Paulist doctrine of Marcion lost out very quickly, did it not?

The spirit that transcends the letter is revealed in Psalm 119. The whole chapter. Read it. Jesus rather warned us all to observe the Law according to the letter. Read Mat. 5:17-19.

Again, not really relevant. The references would have kept Jesus quite sectarian. The Noahide laws and the greater "spirit" of Mark 7 or Matthew 15 is what Thomas is getting at, I think.

That was never said by Jesus because he was a Jewish man and not a Greek demigod. Besides, the proof that the whole chapter 8 of John was a forgery by the Church is in the contradiction that in verse 31, Jesus was speaking to the Jews that had believed in him, and in verse 44, he called those Jews children of the devil. Any one can see the antisemitic hand of the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the book of John. Besides, Luke reports about John as having been an unlearned and ignorant man. As far as I am concerned, illiterate men do not write books. That's just another evidence that Hellenists, former disciples of Paul wrote the gospels.

Here, you are very much on point. It is not that I am criticizing you or Thomas just to criticize... Both John's Hellenistic bent and his anti-Semitism are probably later additions. Hard to tell, though because the crucifixion account is probably more accurate... hmmmm, may e-mail someone on this.

There is a strong pre-Quakerly mystical tradition that links most of what you are both saying as "something beyond". Rather than being Jesus' words, these are indications that the Chr!st is with us as the source of the light within, that indeed he is that of G!d within each of us (Separate discussion, though).

I meant to say that "religion of the heart" is a cop out because there is no religion which is not of the heart. Therefore, the expression is a stupid redoundance with the intent to promote Replacement Theology, which is translated as vandalism of Judaism by Christianity.

False flag here... I see no reference from Thomas except to the point you accepted as mis-stated.

No, there is no nonsense. Nonsense is found in the lack of understanding of metaphorical language by some people. The child and son are Israel as a People who indeed were in Egypt at the beginning before they became an organized nation, and not as one individual among the people. "Foster father, arms, hands of love," all to be interpreted metaphoricall. Jesus was never in Egypt, unless you wanna dig another contradiction between Matthew and Luke.

Again, you two are talking past each other. Ben is reading with his wired-in interpretation (metaphor = how Judaism reads the text) and Thomas with his (words can mean what they say).

What is the truth, do you know what is the truth? Jesus said that it is the Word of God. (John 17:17) Now, do you know whom was the Word of God given to? Read Psalm 147:19,20. To Israel only and to no other people on earth.

Here we really get off-track; you are using a text you do not think is truth to prove the truth of your assertion. Somehow that seems contradictory. And again, the literal versus allegorical dimensions should be addressed. "Word" to me does not mean text (unless you are arguing that there is a single inerrant text, pretty much a discarded approach). And as for the Psalmist, you are free to interpret this literally but that does lead to charges of Judaic exclusivity. One needs to make the Psalm agree with Noahide laws (and other blessing to the nations entries) threads. As you state it David trumps Moses....BEEP. Does not work.

In that case, Jesus either lied or did not know what he was talking about. Because that's what you seem to imply.

Again, using the eye of a needle instead of a sieve. Come now, using a book you do not think is literal (and probably neither does Thomas) to come up with, IMHO, purposefully explosive metaphors does not become you (or Thomas). Instead try "If John 24 is true and if Jesus actually said this and he meant it literally, then it follows that........"

Pax et amore omnia vincunt.
 
This may be true, but that, IMHO, is not what Thomas was getting at. Christianity (if one takes the long view that includes tradition, as Thomas and I do) is quite contrary to the Neo-platonic and Gnostic trends of Greek thought in Christianity's first centuries. It is not an expression of a "mysterious Hellenistic theology" from that perspective.



It is important to remember that the Pauline thread is part of a larger tapestry. The cities of Antioch, Alexandria, and Rome had (certainly after the Fall of the Second Temple) more Jews and, likely, more Jewish sympathizers to Jesus than your remarks take into consideration. Paul certainly did not mean to, nor IMHO re-invent a Hellenistic theology. But even if he was going that way (debatable) the Pure Paulist doctrine of Marcion lost out very quickly, did it not?



Again, not really relevant. The references would have kept Jesus quite sectarian. The Noahide laws and the greater "spirit" of Mark 7 or Matthew 15 is what Thomas is getting at, I think.



Here, you are very much on point. It is not that I am criticizing you or Thomas just to criticize... Both John's Hellenistic bent and his anti-Semitism are probably later additions. Hard to tell, though because the crucifixion account is probably more accurate... hmmmm, may e-mail someone on this.

There is a strong pre-Quakerly mystical tradition that links most of what you are both saying as "something beyond". Rather than being Jesus' words, these are indications that the Chr!st is with us as the source of the light within, that indeed he is that of G!d within each of us (Separate discussion, though).



False flag here... I see no reference from Thomas except to the point you accepted as mis-stated.



Again, you two are talking past each other. Ben is reading with his wired-in interpretation (metaphor = how Judaism reads the text) and Thomas with his (words can mean what they say).



Here we really get off-track; you are using a text you do not think is truth to prove the truth of your assertion. Somehow that seems contradictory. And again, the literal versus allegorical dimensions should be addressed. "Word" to me does not mean text (unless you are arguing that there is a single inerrant text, pretty much a discarded approach). And as for the Psalmist, you are free to interpret this literally but that does lead to charges of Judaic exclusivity. One needs to make the Psalm agree with Noahide laws (and other blessing to the nations entries) threads. As you state it David trumps Moses....BEEP. Does not work.



Again, using the eye of a needle instead of a sieve. Come now, using a book you do not think is literal (and probably neither does Thomas) to come up with, IMHO, purposefully explosive metaphors does not become you (or Thomas). Instead try "If John 24 is true and if Jesus actually said this and he meant it literally, then it follows that........"

Pax et amore omnia vincunt.

I have sent ye saviours. There have been many sent over time but JESUS really is MICHAEL.
 
HELL NO! The Jewish god is nothing like the Christian God. The Jewish god was as good as the devil, directly responsible for all the good as well as evil in the world and injustices that the Jews themselves underwent. When you think about it the Jewish god was a lot like the other gods that the Jews were worshipping before they became strictly monotheists in Deutero-Isaiah when the came into contact with THE PERSIAN ZOROASTRIANS who like the latter Christians worshipped an ALL GOOD ALL MIGHTY GOD.

I have sent ye saviours. There have been many sent over time but JESUS really is MICHAEL.

I think that Michael fr. Heb. Mikha-el who is often associated with Mithras the Roman war deity derived from the Zoroastrian Mithra prob. akin to Mathra cf. Mashyo "man" and described as Mazda's body, Mazda therein being the Zoroastrian all good all mighty God. Michael also came into the fold when the Jews came into contact with the Zoroastrians in Persia.
 
HELL NO! The Jewish god is nothing like the Christian God. The Jewish god was as good as the devil, directly responsible for all the good as well as evil in the world and injustices that the Jews themselves underwent. When you think about it the Jewish god was a lot like the other gods that the Jews were worshipping before they became strictly monotheists in Deutero-Isaiah when the came into contact with THE PERSIAN ZOROASTRIANS who like the latter Christians worshipped an ALL GOOD ALL MIGHTY GOD.



I think that Michael fr. Heb. Mikha-el who is often associated with Mithras the Roman war deity derived from the Zoroastrian Mithra prob. akin to Mathra cf. Mashyo "man" and described as Mazda's body, Mazda therein being the Zoroastrian all good all mighty God. Michael also came into the fold when the Jews came into contact with the Zoroastrians in Persia.

The heavenly kingdom exists and as I have said heavenly beings have wings. Firstborn are in the exact image and likeness of the say as a son the father. MICAHEL is first in the heavenly kingdon ADAM the earthly. ADAM doesnt have wings. Human is not as big as heavenly beings . Heavenly beings consist of much more light tightly packed but have wings because the light is spread out because of size ect. So as you can see ADAM is considered associated with Michael who is like god but two different beings.
 
HELL NO! The Jewish god is nothing like the Christian God. The Jewish god was as good as the devil, directly responsible for all the good as well as evil in the world and injustices that the Jews themselves underwent. When you think about it the Jewish god was a lot like the other gods that the Jews were worshipping before they became strictly monotheists in Deutero-Isaiah when the came into contact with THE PERSIAN ZOROASTRIANS who like the latter Christians worshipped an ALL GOOD ALL MIGHTY GOD.



I think that Michael fr. Heb. Mikha-el who is often associated with Mithras the Roman war deity derived from the Zoroastrian Mithra prob. akin to Mathra cf. Mashyo "man" and described as Mazda's body, Mazda therein being the Zoroastrian all good all mighty God. Michael also came into the fold when the Jews came into contact with the Zoroastrians in Persia.

So as you can see there are two aspects : Human immortals then literal heavenly beings Like GOD literally.
 
HELL NO! The Jewish god is nothing like the Christian God. The Jewish god was as good as the devil, directly responsible for all the good as well as evil in the world and injustices that the Jews themselves underwent. When you think about it the Jewish god was a lot like the other gods that the Jews were worshipping before they became strictly monotheists in Deutero-Isaiah when the came into contact with THE PERSIAN ZOROASTRIANS who like the latter Christians worshipped an ALL GOOD ALL MIGHTY GOD.
I quite agree. Violent and jealous was that god! Much like the deities that came before, containing both good & evil aspects.
 
I quite agree. Violent and jealous was that god! Much like the deities that came before, containing both good & evil aspects.

Ummm gods actions are miracles say for example the light of the holy spirit is like lightening ect. Its a divine jeliously. please do not compare god to peoples concept of the devil. As above so below , no matter where god is hes all good.
 
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