Gravity - absolute truth?

[IowaGuy]

Is gravity an absolute truth?

In the book/video "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist", gravity is used as an example to "prove" the existence of abolute truths; which then sets up his "proof" of other concepts.

i.e. whether or not you "believe" in gravity (subjective truth), if you jump from the top of a building you will fall to the ground. This affects all people regardless of their belief/disbelief in gravity.

I'm hoping to get some other people's perspectives on how gravity, a favorite example in the subjective/absolute truth debate, applies to absolute or relative truth.

 

[Divos]

Gravity is the Distortion between Time and Space

Faith is the Distortion between Fact and Fiction

 

[Etu Malku]

Is gravity an absolute truth?

In the book/video "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist", gravity is used as an example to "prove" the existence of abolute truths; which then sets up his "proof" of other concepts.

i.e. whether or not you "believe" in gravity (subjective truth), if you jump from the top of a building you will fall to the ground. This affects all people regardless of their belief/disbelief in gravity.

I'm hoping to get some other people's perspectives on how gravity, a favorite example in the subjective/absolute truth debate, applies to absolute or relative truth.

Absolute truths are what I call Principles of the Universe and are merely mathematical formula that are consistent within our perception (or lack of). Gravity (and I'm sure Radarmark will have an L-Field Day with this) breaks down once a body is removed from another larger body, therefore it is not a constant or a Universal Law.

 

[IowaGuy]

Absolute truths are what I call Principles of the Universe and are merely mathematical formula that are consistent within our perception (or lack of). Gravity (and I'm sure Radarmark will have an L-Field Day with this) breaks down once a body is removed from another larger body, therefore it is not a constant or a Universal Law.

Hi Etu, I had a good discussion last night with a group of conservative Christian friends (I was seriously outnumbered ) about absolute vs relative truth so this is fresh on my mind.

I know you're big on our psyche creating our own reality (subjective truth). How does gravity relate/compare to subjective truth? Is gravity independent of our subjective truth? What else in the universe is independent of our subjective truth?

The argument last night was that if gravity can be shown to affect all earthlings the same, then we can't say that truth is different for different people (one of my favorite concepts - what's true for Etu is different than what's true for IG is different than what's true for a Hindu, etc). If gravity is true for everyone whether or not they believe in it, then the same could be said for God - that there is one abolute true God/creator for the entire universe that applies to all mankind whether we believe in God or not.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

I would say there is no such thing as gravity during the time after which one universe disappears and before its succeeding universe appears, so I am not sure gravity is an 'absolute truth.'

By the way, Christianity and the Bible only deal with the events of this universe -- starting with creating light from darkness -- the first moment of our new universe -- and does not deal with what happens between universes, so I would stay clear of such discussions with fundamentalist Christians!

 

[radarmark]

Indeed, what we think gravity is disappears at the moment of creation or (possibly) destruction of the universe. In either case it has little to do with the basic argument from my point-of-view. G!d is not part of the universe so can never be known. Nor (like "mind" in scientism) can G!d ever influence things in this universe (which is limited to physical things). If one of your discussion group can explain the mental/material or G!d/Universe gap so that mind or G!d can (in a scientifically provable way) influence the physical universe thye deserve a Nobel.

Also, if they are trying to prove G!d within the universe based on the scriptures, point out that the scriptures are mere words subject to interpretation and, oh yeah, undoubtably filled with textual errors.

While one can ignore gravity in the physical universe, one cannot ignore the effects thereof in that universe. One can ignore G!d in the universe without ever facing a similar problem... there are many total atheists who behave well and never (in this universe) suffer any effects of G!d due to their atheism.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

 

[Etu Malku]

I know you're big on our psyche creating our own reality (subjective truth). How does gravity relate/compare to subjective truth? Is gravity independent of our subjective truth? What else in the universe is independent of our subjective truth?

I would tend to think there are certain Universal Laws or Principles that are fixed absolutes, Gravity (or lack of) being one of them. The question then becomes, are we really perceiving the absolute truth about something objective/physical? Do you see the same color I see that we call Red?

The argument last night was that if gravity can be shown to affect all earthlings the same, then we can't say that truth is different for different people (one of my favorite concepts - what's true for Etu is different than what's true for IG is different than what's true for a Hindu, etc). If gravity is true for everyone whether or not they believe in it, then the same could be said for God - that there is one abolute true God/creator for the entire universe that applies to all mankind whether we believe in God or not.

You could say that, of course until we have some type of measurement that the god you described exists, I guess there is no way to know the absolute truth?

 

[seattlegal]

lol, gravity is relativistic

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Etu,

I think it is impossible for us to understand absolute truths while we are still incarnating in these physical bodies. I think that we will need to achieve a much higher level of consciousnes before we begin to realize (or even become capable of realizing) what true reality is.

 

[Etu Malku]

Etu,

I think it is impossible for us to understand absolute truths while we are still incarnating in these physical bodies. I think that we will need to achieve a much higher level of consciousnes before we begin to realize (or even become capable of realizing) what true reality is.

Agreed . . . heck I don't even understand half the books I read!

 

[seattlegal]

I would tend to think there are certain Universal Laws or Principles that are fixed absolutes, Gravity (or lack of) being one of them. The question then becomes, are we really perceiving the absolute truth about something objective/physical? Do you see the same color I see that we call Red?

You could say that, of course until we have some type of measurement that the god you described exists, I guess there is no way to know the absolute truth?

Measurement is a relativistic concept. "Absolute" is a judgment call.

{Why does everyone get this mixed up?}

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Hi Etu, I had a good discussion last night with a group of conservative Christian friends (I was seriously outnumbered ) about absolute vs relative truth so this is fresh on my mind.

you want to be careful they are likely all praying for that you that you will share their delusions and prayer can be a powerful force.

 

[wil]

i.e. whether or not you "believe" in gravity (subjective truth), if you jump from the top of a building you will fall to the ground. This affects all people regardless of their belief/disbelief in gravity.

I suppose we'll need more than the word gravity....can a word be an absolute truth. What is the definition of gravity we are using as an absolute truth?

As our above is easily fallable... I may fall toward the ground, but I won't always fall to the ground. if I jump onto a helicopter... or a swing... or the floor below... or with a bungee cord... or into a stunt bag .... or....

then of course we have quantum locking whereby instead of a magnet repelling or attracting it does both equally and holds metal frozen with liquid nitrogen in space in the same relation as the magnet despite gravitational pull.... take that into account when as we work toward our absolute truth.

Quantum Locking Metal - YouTube


maybe: Absolute truth - If an object within the gravitional pull of one object and not significantly held by or stopped by other forces from other objects it will generally move in the direction of the center of that gravitational pull until and unless otherwise affected by another force or solid object. (in this universe, at this time, as we perceive it)

 

[radarmark]

Okay, let me fry some minds. Not only is gravity relativistic, there is no gravitational pull. Gravity is a result of the warping of spacetime by mass. Furthermore, this warping can occur (or rather most relativity physicists believe it can occur) without the presence of mass via "gravitons" or packets of gravity that warp the spacetime metric.

If we are seeking absolutes: the only things absolutely provable are (1) the deductive logic and (2) arithmetic.

I can imagine and posulate a universe without gravity. Some very bizarre churchmen thought this up during the Galileo episode--the plants (and solar systems, and galaxies... you get the idea) are held in place by invisible angels or spirits. Likewise, invisible little angels pull on our feet (and everywhere else) to emulate what we call gravity.

Non Absolute "absolute truth" - In this universe, at this time, as we perceive it if a material object is within a spacetime curvature metric, unless constrained by an opposing force (otherwise affected by nuclear or electromagnetic force or another material object) the object will follow its metric world-line and respond as if accelerated in accordance with that metric.

Good job you all, real, real close!

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Gravity is a result of the warping of spacetime by mass = An Absolute.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A theoretical question:

I] A volume "Void",
ie: of a cup full's worth of "Void"
is isolated and examined closely
and compared with a
sampling of "void"
taken from a far-off distant location . . .

Will it be observed that the (2) Sampling places and (2) Cup's worth samples of "Void" are exactly the same and identical.

So it can be said that the Void is Omnipresent & omniscient?
Can be said that (2) samples of void can occupy the same place at the same time with out any diminution?

II] The "Metrics of Everything" other than the "metric of Zero" can be measured [or has been sought to be measured] ---As every seasoned time traveler knows to first ask, "I am from Outer Space, can you take me to your Metrics?"

"How can you have your pudding when you haven't eatened your Metrics?"



PS: Is that how you write "eat" in the past tense? ---'eatened'---???

 

[seattlegal]

Gravity is a result of the warping of spacetime by mass = An Absolute.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A theoretical question:

I] A volume "Void",
ie: of a cup full's worth of "Void"
is isolated and examined closely
and compared with a
sampling of "void"
taken from a far-off distant location . . .

Will it be observed that the (2) Sampling places and (2) Cup's worth samples of "Void" are exactly the same and identical.

Is there anything in "void" that can be picked out to be measured? Wouldn't you have neti-neti? Therefore, the analysis of "void" would only be identical if you neti-neti the same things for the same samples. If two different people analyze the samples, the two analysis would prolly be different.

So it can be said that the Void is Omnipresent & omniscient?
Can be said that (2) samples of void can occupy the same place at the same time with out any diminution?

If you squish the two differently analyzed samples together, would they be added to due to the increased amount of neti-neti from the two samples?

II] The "Metrics of Everything" other than the "metric of Zero" can be measured [or has been sought to be measured] ---As every seasoned time traveler knows to first ask, "I am from Outer Space, can you take me to your Metrics?"

Isn't neti-neti the measurement of zero?

"How can you have your pudding when you haven't eatened your Metrics?"



PS: Is that how you write "eat" in the past tense? ---'eatened'---???

lol, eat, ate, has eaten. **burp**

 

[IowaGuy]

If we are seeking absolutes: the only things absolutely provable are (1) the deductive logic and (2) arithmetic.

Is death not provable? Is human death not an absolute truth?

 

[radarmark]

IG, I am pretty sure all humans die. But since I have not known all humans, I cannot be 100% absolutely sure. Yes, I know this is extreme and limits "absolute truth" to tautologies and obstensive definitions. Yes, I realize that to define truth this way means adding a bunch of caveats ("this book that I am holding is 3 pounds plus or minus about 4 ounces). What happens if those cryogenically saved are able to be revived and cloned (and recloned...) are these clones, each with a memory of times before cloning (say a psychic transfer) all separate human beings because they are clones or is it one living being?

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Originally Posted by bhaktajan
The "Metrics of Everything" other than the "metric of Zero" can be measured

Isn't neti-neti the measurement of zero?

Is the term "neti-neti" the measurement of zero?

No. Wrong understanding of the term.
It's like saying " "One plus Two equals Four" . . . so please except that statement as payment . . . in lieu of Cash".

Neti-neti is the intellectual exercise of seeking out Godhead and/or Enlightenment ---and thus Doing a "Check-off List Proceedure" of encounters along the spiritual path:

• Neti-neti ---No Not This Thing.
• Neti-neti ---No Not This Thing either.
• Neti-neti ---No Not This Thing either . . . ad-infinitum

Repeat this process until there is nothing else here in the material world to check-off the list of encountered circumstances and/or lifetime experieneces as "Neti-Neti" . . . and then . . . one arrives at "Brahman".

Brahman is the underlying omnipresent Space inwhich the three-Gunas throw the Material Elements into flux and thus We individual spirit-souls [jiv-atmas] have a place to surjourn birth after birth while tied to the re-actions of one's past actions (Fruits-of-one's-actions-preformed-in-the-past; aka, "karma-phalam").

After rising through all the stratums of Spercies of Life from ameobas to vertibrates to bi-peds to humans to celestial denisens . . . and back down and sideways and up and down all over the karmic spectrum of "Acts" ---one finally, after sincere reasoning is developed to do so, One begins the Neti-Neti intellectual exercise to seek out that which is absolute.

The Absolute Truth of the Mystery of Life is the Personage of Godhead and His own name, fame, form, personality, paraphenalia, entourage and pastimes ---all of which transpire in a Non-Material, Transcendent to time mode, aka, Spirit-Energy (daivyam-prakriti) ---all of which is neti-neti this nor neti-netu that.

Brahman realisation comes before Param-atma (God as plenary expansions localised in the heart and situated along-side each living creature Individual Soul) ---this two realisations comes before the Final Realisation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Such revelations cannot be accepted from any source other than the direct disciplic succession of the Absolute Supreme Truth that is Godheads Personage Himself, and none other source can be relied upon to reveal such an Absolute Truth of Personhood of God other than God Himself.

Furthermore, such an absolute constitution of Godhead being His own specific person [while our predicament here in the transcient material world has us all changing bodies and ego-constructs birth after birth in search of positioning ourself as Lord-or-all-we-survey] points out that an absolute Truth is Absolute and not replacable by Neti-Neti alternatives no matter how long one searches for alternates to God being Hisown Absolute personage without being "affected" by the coming and goings of Material Affairs where Time exists and transpires and bringing everything in the world of Duality [ala, 'ying & yang'] to a contimuous cycle of "creation, maintenance & desolution".

seeking to become reborn anymore and to become unborne once again as I was before I left God's audience and starting taking birth-after-birth since time-immemorial (aka, samsara).

Hare Krishna,
Bhaktajan

 

[Bhaktajan II]

IG, I am pretty sure all humans die. But since I have not known all humans, I cannot be 100% absolutely sure. Yes, I know this is extreme and limits "absolute truth" to tautologies and obstensive definitions. Yes, I realize that to define truth this way means adding a bunch of caveats ("this book that I am holding is 3 pounds plus or minus about 4 ounces). What happens if those cryogenically saved are able to be revived and cloned (and recloned...) are these clones, each with a memory of times before cloning (say a psychic transfer) all separate human beings because they are clones or is it one living being?

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

This is not a bunch of caveats.

It just old fashion "Mental Speculation"