Spirits

[iBrian]

I don't normally take much notice of the concept of "spirits". The term and other people's description always sounded like metaphor - of information generally cleansed to be comprehensible to the human mind, and mixing with the emotional state of the person.

About a week ago my family left for short holiday with relative while I got on with work at home - so the house is emptier, and noises are more marked.

However, from the hallway behind me there is a constant sense of "being watched".

It's not malignant - there's little sense of anything though, excepting of...being wathed, and from a specific location, being the hallway to the room where I work (which also happens to be directly behind myself).

On the emotional site I guess I feel a little more exposed and alert - so there is definitely that factor.

However, I'm used to benig empathically aware - of walking down a street and knowing when and from where people are looking at me. When I feel it on the street I look around and usually straight into the eyes of someone, who'll often quickly look away.

But the odd thing is - it feels like the same sense being tripped. It's a total sense of presence, but I can't read the emotions, other than there's nothing threatening...almost curious...as if watching for the sake of watching.

Heh, beginning to sound like late-night paranoia.

It is a fascinating feeling through - and with that, a general invitation on the cnocept of "spirits" - do they exist?

Regardless of what I've written above, I'll still say "no" in terms of the familiar "disembodied spirit" notion.

 

[mandrill]

I don't normally take much notice of the concept of "spirits". The term and other people's description always sounded like metaphor - of information generally cleansed to be comprehensible to the human mind, and mixing with the emotional state of the person.

About a week ago my family left for short holiday with relative while I got on with work at home - so the house is emptier, and noises are more marked.

However, from the hallway behind me there is a constant sense of "being watched".

It's not malignant - there's little sense of anything though, excepting of...being wathed, and from a specific location, being the hallway to the room where I work (which also happens to be directly behind myself).

On the emotional site I guess I feel a little more exposed and alert - so there is definitely that factor.

However, I'm used to benig empathically aware - of walking down a street and knowing when and from where people are looking at me. When I feel it on the street I look around and usually straight into the eyes of someone, who'll often quickly look away.

But the odd thing is - it feels like the same sense being tripped. It's a total sense of presence, but I can't read the emotions, other than there's nothing threatening...almost curious...as if watching for the sake of watching.

Heh, beginning to sound like late-night paranoia.

It is a fascinating feeling through - and with that, a general invitation on the cnocept of "spirits" - do they exist?

Regardless of what I've written above, I'll still say "no" in terms of the familiar "disembodied spirit" notion.

Castaneda's books discuss something referred to as "allies" or "non-organic lifeforms," beings that exist in the world with us but are very unlike us, to the point that most of us do not even notice them or, if we do, interpret them as something else, something we more readily understand, such as another human being. I think this concept has similarities with other stories of other beings, such as fairies or elves or elementals or even angels or demons or aliens perhaps .. basically it could be that something .. or some *things* do exist and that, throughout ages and places people who have direct experience with them interpret them differently, according to their personal beliefs and knowledge base.

When I was a teenager my parents' house had a large finished basement and my stereo was kept down there, probably to shield them from my music. I used to love to go down there and dance .. in fact to this day I love to dance by myself, it has always been a source of much comfort to me .. and, as I got more interested in spiritual matters, dancing became a better way for me, personally, to interact directly with the power that is than sitting in motionless meditation. I didn't understand all these implications of dancing at the time, I just enjoyed it .. it made me feel good and I put my all into it.

Without fail, at a certain point in the evening I would begin to feel that something was watching me, usually located in the doorway between the main large basement room and the smaller room that contained a kitchen and storage area. The presence, whatever it was, terrified me, though it never did anything to harm me. However, I could not abide staying there with it and would always wind up hurriedly turning off the stereo and the lights and then sprinting over to the staircase and racing up the stairs. It always felt like this thing, whatever it was, was right on my heels all the way up the stairs. Once I reached the upper level, where my parents and normality were safely located, I immediately relaxed and the feeling of being watched and followed ceased.

Years later when I read Castaneda's description of allies, and the feelings they instilled in one dealing with them, I instantly recognized it .. it sounded just like my experience as a teen in my parents' basement. A couple of elements really struck me - how strong emotions, such as terror, would attract them to one, while dispelling this emotion, as I did whenever I reached my parents, would cause the allies to give up their pursuit. Also, allies were said to often be found around bodies of water - my house was located less than a block from a river. They also are said to be attracted to our greater energy, and individuals with greater energy (energy is a more specialized term in these books and has more to do with the proper way of living and being in the world) are more likely to not only attract them but also to perceive them. I imagine my dancing, which has continued to be a source of power for me, my form of "prayer," if you will, drew one in and enabled me to sense its presence. Or perhaps it, or they even, were always lurking about that house, and the dancing merely altered my consciousness and enabled the perception.

So why did I persist in going back into that basement to dance? I guess what I was getting out of this activity outweighed the terror I experienced later.

I can see where, since your house is quieter and free of other distractions, you may now be free to spare your precious attention elsewhere. So enjoy!

 

[sjr]

Ive expirenced a ghost once while tiling a laundry room that used to be a back porch....where the original owner of the 1906 Craftsman home blew his head off with a shot gun.As jobs go it should of taken 4or5 hours...turned into 12.When I set that last piece of tile...it felt like 100lbs jumped off my back..then I realized what time it was and how unfocused I had been.I told the new homeowner something weird happened to me on this job...sorry it took so long ect.She wanted details about my expirence.Shed done alot of investigation at the library...and thru a psychic.Weird things were happening in that house long before the GHOSTBUSTING tileman showed up.

Brians quote
"However, I'm used to benig empathically aware - of walking down a street and knowing when and from where people are looking at me. When I feel it on the street I look around and usually straight into the eyes of someone, who'll often quickly look away."


Thats impressive and powerful.

 

[Erynn]

As an animist, I certainly believe in spirits. I believe that all things and places have spirits. There are many different kinds, and from what you describe, it sounds like some kind of ghost (ancestor spirit or spirit of the dead). Some are more conscious than others.

I mostly work with spirits of animals and plants, and spirits of place like water spirits or tree or stone spirits, or mountain spirits.

I can't say that I can really explain them, but they make themselves known to me. They come to me in dreams, or gather around me and "tell" me things nonverbally, which often give me clues about things happening energetically around me. They help me and work through me when I do healing work. They are agents of change to whom I pray and make offerings. They are the powers within the land who allow me to live here and to prosper when they are happy with me.

They are shapeshifters, taking many forms. Sometimes they are in the shapes of animals, but sometimes they are a blend of human and animal. Other times, they are just a palpable "feeling" around me, or a voice in the back of my head.

If the one around you doesn't feel threatening, then you might want to try talking to it. Maybe leave something out for it as you would for a house spirit -- perhaps it wishes to communicate with you, to help you with something, or to ask something of you.

 

[alexa]

Erynn, did you have the chance to meet a Guardian one ? I mean, one of those spirits who have to protect a holly place ?

When you say you let them something out, you mean food ?

I belive they exist, like mandrill said as allies. They give you some time a scary sensation and other time you have the impression they want to help.

I remember, a while ago I met a huge black dog into a farm. Well, at first it looked like a dog. But when I looked into its eyes, God, I had the impression I had a man looking at me, not a dog. I do not believe in reincarnation, but that moment it crossed my mind I was wrong about it.

Most of the times, when I want to say or do something not quite right, I drop things or mess them, or I can feel something touches my arm. Usually, this make me reconsider what I wanted to say or do. I know somehow, something is not right. Strange, isn't it ?

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

What a really interesting discussion!

Most of the times, when I want to say or do something not quite right, I drop things or mess them, or I can feel something touches my arm. Usually, this make me reconsider what I wanted to say or do. I know somehow, something is not right. Strange, isn't it ?

I have had a number of mild experiences, tough to explain so I usually don't. But the most startling was one time when I was planning some particular naughtiness, and came face to face with a ghost. Needless to say, I was quite startled, and didn't go forward with what I had planned.

So I can quite agree, that when I am up to no good, things happen around me that make me wonder if what I did was really worth it. As a result, I don't look for mischief quite so often anymore.

I am really intrigued by Erynn's reply, I enjoy being alone in nature, just absorbing the atmosphere. While I long thought I was nourishing my spirit, I hadn't thought that may be from another spirit providing that nourishment.

 

[mandrill]

Speaking of 'spirits' influencing one's behavior - twice in my life I have had an actual insistent voice in my head telling me to do, or not to do, something. Both times I ignored the voice and did what I wanted anyway, with completely disasterous results.

The first was when I was ten. A voice started telling me to call the dog in the kitchen, from the hallway where she was laying, in front of my parents' bedroom door. For various reasons I did not want to bother to do this and I mentally argued with the voice for a few moments, before it fell silent. A few moments later my mother got up to go into her room, tripped over the dog and broke her hip.

The second time was years later when I was looking for a house to buy. A voice told me to be careful, that I would love this particular house I was about to look at but that I should not buy it. Well, guess what, I learned nothing from my experience as a ten year old ... ... boy was that house a lemon! Ever see the movie "The Money Pit?"

The next time I hear that voice I swear I'm going to listen!

 

[iBrian]

Listening to the "inner voice" is definitely a plus.

I like your reference to calling the dog esepcially - if you had called the dog, and the dog had come to you, the entire series of actions would have seemed meaningless and completely irrelevant. It's worth noting that anything we do has consequences beyond ourselves, even when the action may seem meaningless and irrelevant.

 

[mandrill]

Listening to the "inner voice" is definitely a plus.

I like your reference to calling the dog esepcially - if you had called the dog, and the dog had come to you, the entire series of actions would have seemed meaningless and completely irrelevant. It's worth noting that anything we do has consequences beyond ourselves, even when the action may seem meaningless and irrelevant.

Yes but, hmm .. the ironic thing about stuff like this is, if I *had* listened, as you say, I never would have gotten the significance. Instead I was able to learn, firsthand and at an early age, that the world was not quite like everyone was telling me, that there were things out there .. mysteries .. that could not be easily explained .. important opportunity for me, to be sure, so perhaps it was good that I did not follow the voice. However, on the other hand, my mother suffered quite a bit and I did feel badly ... would have preferred a less stressful lesson .. but then, when do we ever get those?

 

[iBrian]

Lol! Too right!!

 

[Erynn]

Erynn, did you have the chance to meet a Guardian one ? I mean, one of those spirits who have to protect a holly place ?

I've met a lot of different spirits, some of which I suppose would qualify as Guardians of some sort, either of a place or of a type of knowledge. They can be very challenging, but that's their nature and their function. I think that each spirit would probably come across differently to any person who encountered it, based on that person's attitude and their perceptive talents.

When you say you let them something out, you mean food ?

Yes, usually, or something to drink. That really depends on the type of spirit as to what they would seem to like. With some, I leave tobacco or corn meal, for others I burn some smudge of one sort or another (not just sage, but cedar or juniper or other plants depending on what seems to be called for).

I belive they exist, like mandrill said as allies. They give you some time a scary sensation and other time you have the impression they want to help.

I don't think all of them exist as allies. Spirits aren't human, and I've run across those who seem to be malevolent toward humans, or at least I was unable to understand their motivations well enough to figure out why they were acting/felt the way they did. From what I can figure out, their wants, desires, and motivations are not always anything like those of humans, and their purposes may cross ours so that we find ourselves at odds. These would not in any way be "allies" in the sense of having any desire to help humans.

Most of the times, when I want to say or do something not quite right, I drop things or mess them, or I can feel something touches my arm. Usually, this make me reconsider what I wanted to say or do. I know somehow, something is not right. Strange, isn't it ?

Sounds like maybe there are strong helping presences around you.

 

[Erynn]

I am really intrigued by Erynn's reply, I enjoy being alone in nature, just absorbing the atmosphere. While I long thought I was nourishing my spirit, I hadn't thought that may be from another spirit providing that nourishment.

I found a book a while ago that I'm slowly reading through, that you might find interesting if you're wanting to explore these concepts more. It comes from a more psychological perspective than I usually do, but is very good nonetheless.

The book is called Soulcraft: Crossing into the Mysteries of Nature and Psyche by Bill Plotkin. It seems a very gentle introduction to nature spirituality, the idea of spiritual quest/journey as a life process, and presents some nice techniques for getting in touch with nature and spirit in different ways.

 

[iBrian]

I've been studying how I react and when it feels strongest, and the feeling seems to come on whenever there's a small noise in the hallway behind me - shrinking boards, etc.

So it seems that I focus awareness behind myself to see if anyone's there, and that creates a sense of tension and exposure - back to an open door leading into a hallway - especially as the sounds could also be made by someone creeping around.

Is there "something" there behind me? I could easily claim there is on the fact that I do feel uncomfortable - almost watched - but I think my personal emotional state is a key in this instance that I'm taking most note of.

To make a discussion point from all that - how much do people believe that perception of spirits is highly related to emotional state?

 

[alexa]

To make a discussion point from all that - how much do people believe that perception of spirits is highly related to emotional state?

I do not believe spirits are responsable for an emotional state. Instead they may be attracted by one.

The way you present the facts, Brian, I think you need to take a break and rest a little.

I read a lot about paranormal activities and last year I actually saw one I fear most. I was in my office at work. In front of me I had one of my collegue and the secretary's supervisor. They were talking about a new classeur (engl ?). My collegue was in a very bad mood, as she found out the post she applied on was given to another one who didn't know anything about that job. As they were talking, one of my files ranged on the right shelve was like pulled out and dropped into a box I was working with on the floor. It was like in a movie where things fly all by themselves. That was all. I didn't say anything to my collegue, but I suspected her emotional state was responsble for that moving file.

 

[Zazen]

interesting topic..

although, i dont think its fair to call other forms of life, or rather other forms of intelligence "spirits" simply because they exist outside of our realm of understanding

for instance, air is intangible and invisible, which is the obvious character traits of 'spirits'

but we dont breathe in and breathe out spirits on regular, we breathe in air

therefore, maybe other beings who live outside our realm of comprehension(mentally/physically) arent "spirits" in the sense of the word

i guess we could call them that, just like, we call a tiger a tiger, that of course isnt what it is, its just what we call it..

maybe its simpler that way? i dunno, i think sometimes our minds and how we are conditioned to our surroundings etc makes things more complicated then they really are, maybe thats why some people are more 'open' to these matters then others, or maybe some have really big imaginations..i dunno

personally, i think offering a "spirit" water or food is a bit of a stretch, i dont understand the significance of this practice if the being in question is not of this reality or this plane of existence

this also alludes to another aspect of this discussion, which is if beings of another form of existence do live amongst us, are they as aware of us as we are of them or are they completely aware of us. for most, ghosts and the like take on some kind of omnipotent characteristics, because they can watch us without us knowing, or they can know what we know, or what your neighbor knows, but yet we know nothing of their motives or methods

maybe we should list the things that are commonly known about ghosts and spirits, for short

they are intangible-yet they are known to move or effect tangible objects
they are invisible to the naked eye, yet they seem to be able to appear/disappear at will
in the case of one of these members, they have the ability to read our minds and send messages via telepathy of some sort?
they are capable of making noise, or threats or seemingly mindless statements, but they seem to be incapable or unwilling to discussion
they know the future(this is a big one) and usually either give advice which best compliments the person or which best suits the spirit

ok, so from what ive listed above spirits are capable of a helluvalot, much more then most humans can or would normally claim..

so what entitles them to so much power? what entitles us to so little?

just questions.. i just think its odd that with every experience with other beings, there are always more questions then answers, even though, these beings seem to be very influential in many different aspects of our reality, which, i think is odd, infact, this is the sole reason why the vast majority completely disregards such matters, because in the end, there is no stone cold proof of anything of this nature existing

amitabha

 

[mandrill]

I think a bit of clarification is needed for the term "ally" as it is used in the Castaneda books. Sorcerors called the entities this, because they sought to control them and use them for their own purposes. However, the books later stress that these beings are simply non-organic lifeforms, just another form of life in the world, and not particularly concerned with humans one way or the other usually, except in ways we might be concerned with them .. i.e., curious at first, capable of other emotions towards us once contact has been established. Whether these beings really have more power than we have is doubtful, in fact, they are attracted to us precisely because we possess the greater energy. Sorcerors, it is said, found them mainly useful to frighten other people or as companions in their journeys to alternate worlds, which are the true home worlds of the various "allies."

They do tend to be attracted to strong human emotions, like love or fear, as I mentioned, I think, in my last post. It might be simply that such emotions give out more energy than a base state.

Having said all of the above, which I've merely recounted from the books I've read, I have to add that there is no way I can assert that any of this is true. All I know for sure is that the descriptions of the "allies" agree very well with experiences I've had in my own life, particularly as a teenager, though those feelings have returned to me at various other times as well. It never felt to me that the entities (and these are definitely different than the 'inner voice' I experienced twice) had any particular design on me or interest in doing anything either good or malevolent .. rather I sensed a fascination with me I guess .. to what ends I had no clue.

 

[Quahom1]

Energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can be converted into energy and vice versa... nothing is lost.

Try it. Take electricity and apply it to a welding rod fusing a steel joint together. The electricity creates heat, which melts the rod and partially melts the two plates forming the joint, fusion between the metals occurs and now you have no more rod, no more electricity, but one solid yet hot piece of steel (where there was once two seperate peices). As the hot plate of steel cools, the air around it heats up and rises and expands, whichs warms the welder who opens his shirt and lets the 'air' in, which wisks away the heat that rises into the sky, which helps cause the air to condense water....rain, which falls to the earth...

When death occurs, the body usually can not sustain the life energy within, so it leaves. Other options are the life energy deliberately wrenching itself away from the body housing it... rare but posible - Or the body's instant inability to sustain the life energy, leaving the life force in shock (dead before you know it).

Then there is the 'unfinished business' that so many of us have before death. Maybe, some of us have "will" strong enough to linger behind to finish that business. Maybe, the 'spirits' we sense are the residual energy we had in life left behind, as a sort of echo, or pebble in the pond effect.

My point is that nothing is wasted, not matter, not energy. All eventually dissapates, but not at the same time. And dissapates, does not mean dissappear, but merely absorbed, introduced and/or incorporated into other sources of matter or energy.

Brian's 'ghost' could be a restless 'spirit', residual energy from a life long ago lived that lingers near a particular spot, or an area devoid of energy (cold spots). He said there was no malevolent feeling to it, therefore lack of emotion tends to rule out 'spirits'.

Then again, we have the concept of angels and demons (watchers).

Finally it could be of all things, a video camera, and Brian senses the electromagnetic aura that surrounds the thing (in a place where he does not expect such a thing to be).

People are sensitive to electromagnetic stimuli. Some are sensitive to concentrated ultraviolet radiation, and some to deep infrared frequencies.

I don't doubt that there might be "Duendes" among us, but I don't think every incedent is a "Duende meadow" ready for harvest.

v/r

Q

 

[alexa]

Ten years ago, I did a course in radiesthesia. I have to add that I stopped at level 3 as I couldn't bear the effects on me. And I also add, not every person can follow this course. A selection is done by a senior and every person who thinks this can give a opportunity to enrich one day is automatically rejected. You need also to have a certain degree of goodness inside of you (more than 80 %).

Here you have the definition of radiesthesia as given in wikipedia :

Radiesthesia

is a phenomenon similar to dowsing that is used for medical diagnosis. It uses a pendulum suspended above a patient. The nature of the swinging, and direction of rotation, would indicate the person's ailment.

In reality there more instruments used such as : rods (ex. from nut tree for those who search water) and antenna, metal wands in a V or L form, Turenne's ruler, protracteur and electronic devices.

Why do I speak about radiesthesia when the thread is about spirits ? The reason is we have learned about them and I would like to share with you this information.

After death of a vegetal, animal or human system we speak about entities. A very simple classification separate them in good and evil entities. Another one, more complex, separate the entities in funtion of their ancient structure and their intelligent level. Here you have how the entities appear in the second classification :

1. spirits of the nature (elf, goblin) are entities in development in a primary stade, not very clever and their origin is in vegetal and animal systems;
2. spirits of places (mountain, lac, forest, cave, etc);
3. guardian entities (ex. for a holy place or a treasure);
4. guardian angels (it is said each of us has one);
5. fallen entities (ghosts).

In radiesthesia you need a high sensibility to feel bio-energetic fields and this couse teach how to sense and work with them. We all have 7 energetic fields and 7 centers, knew as chakras. A radiesthesist has to balance all his fields in order to help another person.

As you can see, you need to be sensitive to feel the presence of the entities around you.

But, don't worry. You can live happily even if you are not able to feel them. They are in another dimension of existance, that's all.

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Energy to effect change the change of energy...

Energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can be converted into energy and vice versa... nothing is lost.

Often I am hesitant to go into a subject because I don't know practically nothing about the subject that I am sure about, insofar as my personal knowledge is concerned, from experience or from my own examination of the subject, and my conclusions which I am myself satisfied with.

Energy and matter is one such topic that I have to confess I know practically nothing about. And what I learned in college I must admit here is not very enlightening either.

So, my stock knowledge just the same about energy and matter is also tantamount to the three statements Quahom1 puts forward in his post earlier.

If Quahom1 is around, perhaps this is my chance to get a more tight knowledge about energy and matter, from him, outside of the mantra:

Energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can be converted into energy and vice versa... nothing is lost.

Can you tell me, Quahom1, is energy needed to change energy to matter and to change matter to energy?

And if energy is needed to change energy to matter and matter to energy, will there be more and more energy or more and more matter until only one or the other remains, and then what...? No more changes?

Please explain to me in man in the street words, but I do possess a working intelligence as I have known of myself from all the IQ tests I have had to go through in life so far.

It is possible however that the subject is simply beyond my mental grasp.

Just the same, try explaining to me, as to a child whose knowledge about things and subjects is bound up with concrete and tangible everyday articles of life at home and in the neighborhood.

Pachomius2000

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

People closest to spirits

Tell me, what people are closest to spirits, aside from us who do live among people who have the interest to talk about spirits.

The way I see it, it is people like you and me but who don't talk about spirits, and yet they are as I see it and you can tell me if you agree or not and why, namely, it is people who work on dead people or human cadavers.

Who are these people? I can think of two: pathologists and embalmers, the one are into medicine and the other are into technology and art (seems like Greek and Latin for the same thing...).

Do we have any kind of medical professional here who is doing the examination of a cadaver for the purpose of autopsy, and also any embalmer?

Please give us your experiences or even just views about spirits, or any kind of encouters whatsoever with spirits.

Once I looked for people in a very big forum who are doing autopsy or embalming work, and one such person responded to me, he told me he is an embalmer.

I asked him about spirits, first whether he had any kind of experience which might for him count as any kind of encounter with spirits, or more broadly does he reflect on life and death and things of the beyond if any such realm of existence there be for him.

You know what? he never answered back; and that thread I started stopped there, for no one ever replied aside from that one.

Maybe in that very big forum there were no members engaged in autopsy or embalming works; or if any members be, they never chanced into my thread, or they simply had no interest in my curiosity.

What do you guys say?

Pachomius2000