"Lost" Scrolls of Scripture

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mojobadshah

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Does anyone have any idea what this guy is talking about or at least which "'lost' scrolls" he's referring to?

"Scholars have puzzled on the fact that they can find no documented sign of Moses in Judaism before the Babylonian Captivity, and that some cynics actually believe that the Jews taken to Babylon were fascinated by and so simply latched onto the Moses Legends there and brought them home to Judah later after their Persian Liberation (it would explain the scriptural references to finding “Lost” scrolls after the return from Babylon… it may have been the first time that these ‘People of David and Solomon’ had ever heard of Moses"
 
mojobadshah said:
Does anyone have any idea what this guy is talking about or at least which "'lost' scrolls" he's referring to?

"Scholars have puzzled on the fact that they can find no documented sign of Moses in Judaism before the Babylonian Captivity, and that some cynics actually believe that the Jews taken to Babylon were fascinated by and so simply latched onto the Moses Legends there and brought them home to Judah later after their Persian Liberation (it would explain the scriptural references to finding “Lost” scrolls after the return from Babylon… it may have been the first time that these ‘People of David and Solomon’ had ever heard of Moses"
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The Samaritans had the books of Moses and were never taken to Babylon.

Samaritan Pentateuch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Yes, SG. However, there is a "fuzziness" in the relation of this Samaritan to Gallilean to Karaite texts also. As the from septuagint (Alexandine), Karaite (probably Saaucean) and masoretic (Rabbinical) texts differ from each other, so does the samaritan and (probably) gallilean (they did not continue on as a separate group most likely). The second temple era (530 BCE-70 CE) and the Pre-Nicean era (70-325 CE) are very confusing and complex.

As a believer in the veracity of oral traditions, I really try to resolve the conflict based upon what I can find are "mythical" notions.
 
I don't think the Samaritan literature is what the above individual is referring to. First off he's saying that David nor Solomon knew of Moses. Is that true? And secondly he mentions "scriptural references" to "'lost' scrolls" which to me sounds like he's saying that there is mention in the Hebrew Bible of scrolls that had something to do with the legend of Moses. Anyone recall mention of "'lost' scrolls" during to post-exilic period of the OT?
 
mojobadshah said:
I don't think the Samaritan literature is what the above individual is referring to. First off he's saying that David nor Solomon knew of Moses. Is that true?
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Not true, as both David and Solomon had the ark of the covenant--several references to that in the books of Samuel and the Books of Kings there, and the Laws of Moses would be necessary in order to follow the rituals regarding the ark.

And secondly he mentions "scriptural references" to "'lost' scrolls" which to me sounds like he's saying that there is mention in the Hebrew Bible of scrolls that had something to do with the legend of Moses. Anyone recall mention of "'lost' scrolls" during to post-exilic period of the OT?
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Nope, the only reference to "lost scrolls" I can think of is when Jeremiah instructed the Jews to put their land purchase agreements into earthenware vessels and bury them "so they would last a long time" just before the Babylonian conquest. (See Jeremiah 32)
 
Servetus said:
My guess is that it is a reference to the "book of the law of Moses" which [Ezra] had brought with him from Babylon," a further description of which can be found here:

EZRA THE SCRIBE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Serv
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That would make sense.

"...he [Ezra] published the "book of the law of Moses" which he had brought with him from Babylon, and made the colony solemnly recognize it as the basis of their religious and civil code." - EZRA THE SCRIBE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Is there any reason to contend that this "book of the law of Moses" wasn't Deuteronomy?

seattlegal said:
Not true, as both David and Solomon had the ark of the covenant--several references to that in the books of Samuel and the Books of Kings there, and the Laws of Moses would be necessary in order to follow the rituals regarding the ark.
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Could you expound here. Were there direct references to "Moses" or the "book of the law of Moses" before the book of Ezra was attested?
 
mojobadshah said:
Could you expound here. Were there direct references to "Moses" or the "book of the law of Moses" before the book of Ezra was attested?
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A simple search for "David, Moses" yields this:

2 Chronicles 23
18 Then Jehoiada put the oversight of the LORD’s temple into the hands of the Levitical priests, whom David had appointed over the LORD’s temple, to offer burnt offerings to the LORD as it is written in the law of Moses, with rejoicing and song ordained by David.​
"Moses" is mentioned several times in the books of Judges, 1 Samuel, and 1 and 2 Kings

BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: Moses

1 Kings 2 is quite telling:

1 As the time approached for David to die, he instructed his son Solomon, 2 “As for me, I am going the way of all of the earth. Be strong and be courageous like a man, 3 and keep your obligation to the LORD your God to walk in His ways and to keep His statutes, commands, ordinances, and decrees. This is written in the law of Moses, so that you will have success in everything you do and wherever you turn, 4 and so that the LORD will carry out His promise that He made to me: ‘If your sons are careful to walk faithfully before Me with their whole mind and heart, you will never fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.’​

So both of them knew about the law of Moses
 
mojobadshah said:
That would make sense.

"...he [Ezra] published the "book of the law of Moses" which he had brought with him from Babylon, and made the colony solemnly recognize it as the basis of their religious and civil code." - EZRA THE SCRIBE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Is there any reason to contend that this "book of the law of Moses" wasn't Deuteronomy?
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I once read Richard Elliott Friedman’s book, “Who Wrote the Bible,” which is a sort of academic field report concerning the “documentary hypothesis.” It is generally assumed, according to that hypothesis (as I only sketchily recall), that Ezra and Nehemiah extensively redacted the Torah and that the Book of Deuteronomy reflects the fact.

I would guess, and only a guess it is, that the author of the brief paragraph you posted holds to the view that Ezra, rather than having a copy of the Law of Moses (including Deuteronomy) in his possession, essentially rewrote (or perhaps somehow recompiled) it and then attributed its authorship to Moses. He would hold, in other words, that the scrolls were "lost" until they were rewritten and hence "found." I think that is a fairly common assumption among "rationalists" so called.
 
The academy is really split on this topic and others concerning the authorship of Torah. For those interested on how deep the controversy is, see Graham, M.P, and McKenzie, Steven L., "The Hebrew Bible today: an introduction to critical issues" (Westminster John Knox Press, 1998).

Bottom line--there are at least three layers of authorship (probably, accoding to "the experts"--read them and you can verify). Deuteronomy is a later addition (same caveat). It is likely Ezra-Nehemiah-Esdras (probably a circle of authors) took the older existing scrolls and rewrote them. First published Deut, followed by "the lost scrolls" which were the first five books. Very conjectural, but likely (IMHO).
 
I just wonder why the Jewish Encyclopedia uses the word "publish" whereas English versions of the Hebrew Bible use the words "bring out."

"but it was only after the arrival of Nehemiah (444 B.C.; comp. Neh. viii. 1 et seq.) that he published the "book of the law of Moses" which he had brought with him from Babylon, and made the colony solemnly recognize it as the basis of their religious and civil code."

"They asked Ezra the scribe to bring out the Book of the Law of Moses, which the LORD had given for Israel to obey." - Nehemiah 8

This is what the Jewish Encyclopedia is referring to right?
 
radarmark said:
The academy is really split on this topic and others concerning the authorship of Torah. For those interested on how deep the controversy is, see Graham, M.P, and McKenzie, Steven L., "The Hebrew Bible today: an introduction to critical issues" (Westminster John Knox Press, 1998).

Bottom line--there are at least three layers of authorship (probably, accoding to "the experts"--read them and you can verify). Deuteronomy is a later addition (same caveat). It is likely Ezra-Nehemiah-Esdras (probably a circle of authors) took the older existing scrolls and rewrote them. First published Deut, followed by "the lost scrolls" which were the first five books. Very conjectural, but likely (IMHO).
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this

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/tilting-at-windmills-a-response-369.html?highlight=redaction

and this

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/documents-hypothesis-redaction-theory-874.html?highlight=redaction

may be worthy of looking at.
 
At one point scholars like Martin Noth contended that Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings were all the work of a single author, but current view is that they were composed by separate authors and editing continued into at the least the Persian period, if not the Hellenistic period. Hence the texts were not fixed in their present form until the Persian or Hellenistic period. Noth contended that the stories in Chronicles which culminate in the Persian period were composed as early as 500 BC and no later than 300 BC. And Ezra-Nehemiah were at one time thought to have been written by the same author. All these texts Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles are the texts that Seatgal cited as having mentioned Moses and the books of Moses. Also there really isn't any archeological evidence to support that the mighty Jewish states like David and Solomon's which the authors of the Hebrew Bible describe ever existed. But what would really tip the balance as to the authenticity of the books of Moses and the antiquity of compositions is what the author's of the compositions themselves say about the compositions. Does anyone speak Hebrew or maybe Greek or Latin? Do these versions interpret to "published" or "bring out" in Nehemiah viii?
 
mojobadshah said:
At one point scholars like Martin Noth contended that Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings were all the work of a single author, but current view is that they were composed by separate authors and editing continued into at the least the Persian period, if not the Hellenistic period. Hence the texts were not fixed in their present form until the Persian or Hellenistic period. Noth contended that the stories in Chronicles which culminate in the Persian period were composed as early as 500 BC and no later than 300 BC. And Ezra-Nehemiah were at one time thought to have been written by the same author. All these texts Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles are the texts that Seatgal cited as having mentioned Moses and the books of Moses. Also there really isn't any archeological evidence to support that the mighty Jewish states like David and Solomon's which the authors of the Hebrew Bible describe ever existed. But what would really tip the balance as to the authenticity of the books of Moses and the antiquity of compositions is what the author's of the compositions themselves say about the compositions. Does anyone speak Hebrew or maybe Greek or Latin? Do these versions interpret to "published" or "bring out" in Nehemiah viii?
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Dictionary.com

pub·lish


verb (used with object) 1. to issue (printed or otherwise reproduced textual or graphic material, computer software, etc.) for sale or distribution to the public.

2. to issue publicly the work of: Random House publishes Faulkner.

3. to announce formally or officially; proclaim; promulgate.

4. to make publicly or generally known.

5. Law . to communicate (a defamatory statement) to some person or persons other than the person defamed.


​

Nehemiah 8:1-3
1And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel. 2And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
3And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.
​

Lexicon: Strong's Hebrew #935

בּוֹא
bow'

1) to go in, enter, come, go, come in
a) (Qal)
1) to enter, come in
2) to come
a) to come with
b) to come upon, fall or light upon, attack (enemy)
c) to come to pass
3) to attain to
4) to be enumerated
5) to go
b) (Hiphil)
1) to lead in
2) to carry in
3) to bring in, cause to come in, gather, cause to come, bring near, bring against, bring upon
4) to bring to pass
c) (Hophal)
1) to be brought, brought in
2) to be introduced, be put
​

To bring out and make public is the basic meaning of "publish."
 
seattlegal said:
Dictionary.com

pub·lish


verb (used with object) 1. to issue (printed or otherwise reproduced textual or graphic material, computer software, etc.) for sale or distribution to the public.

2. to issue publicly the work of: Random House publishes Faulkner.

3. to announce formally or officially; proclaim; promulgate.

4. to make publicly or generally known.

5. Law . to communicate (a defamatory statement) to some person or persons other than the person defamed.


​
Nehemiah 8:1-3
1And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel. 2And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
3And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.
​
Lexicon: Strong's Hebrew #935
בּוֹא
bow'

1) to go in, enter, come, go, come in
a) (Qal)
1) to enter, come in
2) to come
a) to come with
b) to come upon, fall or light upon, attack (enemy)
c) to come to pass
3) to attain to
4) to be enumerated
5) to go
b) (Hiphil)
1) to lead in
2) to carry in
3) to bring in, cause to come in, gather, cause to come, bring near, bring against, bring upon
4) to bring to pass
c) (Hophal)
1) to be brought, brought in
2) to be introduced, be put
​
To bring out and make public is the basic meaning of "publish."
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Sounds about right.

In the beginning of Nehemiah viii, however, it sounds like Ezra's audience is familiar with "the books of the laws of Moses" because they urge him to bring "the books of the laws of Moses" out, but later it looks as if this audience is ignorant of the books being "made to understand" them and this is the kicker: there are rituals that they are just then made aware of.

"And they found written in the law which the LORD had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month: 15. And that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying, Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and pine branches, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as it is written. 16. So the people went forth, and brought them, and made themselves booths, every one upon the roof of his house, and in their courts, and in the courts of the house of God, and in the street of the water gate, and in the street of the gate of Ephraim." - Nehemiah viii

Who is this audience?
 
Hi mojobadshah,

Who is this audience?
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It has been a long time since I sat for religious studies, but I think it is those children of Israel who had returned from Babylonian captivity (at the time of Cyrus the Great).

Serv
 
wil -- thanks for the links. Think my position is somewhere between the two. How can this be, you ask? In fact Torah needed no revamping, either in written or oral form, rather it was we (the 600,000) that needed the explanation.

the divinely inspired point-of-view and the textual analysis point-of-view must, in the final analysis be true in some manner.
 
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