Something Bad Jesus Did

[radarmark]

Servetus--

The entire "Priory of Zion" of the XXth century was the product of Pierre Plantards mind (IMHO) and would have had himself named "New Messiah". So I do not believe some secret Jerusalem Church, even if it reared it head would be welcome, at least here in the U.S.A.

Any new messiah from a Merovingian bloodline would probably be considered the anti-Christ and his followers vastly out-numbered and out-gunned by the hard right Christians here. In Europe I do not really think there is enough of what I called "emotive truth" to fire-up a movement. Not that I do not share your concerns that there are just too many old oral traditions and gaps not to consider the Bloodline as a possibility.

 

[Servetus]

Hi Radarmark,


I am pleased to at least momentarily entice you from your self-imposed exile. I thought talk of Illuminati might fire you up and get you out of your penitence cloaks and into other threads.

The entire "Priory of Zion" of the XXth century was the product of Pierre Plantards mind (IMHO) and would have had himself named "New Messiah".

It gets dodgy, to be sure, but, as I see it, and quite independently of the political pretenses of Messr. Plantard, there is something downright palpable and substantial to the Carolingian vs. Merovingian dynasties and thus of their "rightful" succession. Generally speaking, this lineage stuff will naturally matter more to Europeans than to us Americans. It seems to me that we, as Americans, are, as was planned, already schooled in the supposed, manifold benefits of ochlocracy and thus, despite some of us continuing to quote the Lord’s Prayer at this late hour, presumably have little need for a Rex Mundi. For us, and at least for now, “Homo Economicus” will do. But still, I don't underestimate the power of hierarchy and even vacuous, drug-addled celebrities are often elevated to demi-god status here in the colonies wherein all things, except the monetary decisions of the Federal Reserve Bank, naturally, are subjected to a plebiscite of the voting masses.

So I do not believe some secret Jerusalem Church, even if it reared it head would be welcome, at least here in the U.S.A.

I understand. However, the Knights Templar, who historically went to Jerusalem and who constitute a group of the power elites, are with us still and they are not only welcomed but are practically domiciled here in the USA.

Any new messiah from a Merovingian bloodline would probably be considered the anti-Christ and his followers vastly out-numbered and out-gunned by the hard right Christians here.

Let’s hope so. But seriously, as I see it, those hard right Christians will be an insignificant though potentially annoying group of outlaws in the overall scheme of things. The New Federalism -or of what might become a sort of Constitutional Monarchy- is upon us. I think the important stage will be Europe, the European Union, and, more accurately, the United Nations of the World. Brussels was the Tabernacle in the Wilderness which, with much pomp, will be moved to Jerusalem which city will then, conceivably, stand in (legal) relation to the UN as the District of Columbia does to the US. The United States of America, in other words, and though it pains me to either acknowledge or accept, was, to the Dionysian artificers who had a strong hand in its design, probably an ultimately expendable rough-draft and model. From their present perspective, sitting upon their supranational perches, America can now be left to choke in its own debt and decadence.

In Europe I do not really think there is enough of what I called "emotive truth" to fire-up a movement. Not that I do not share your concerns that there are just too many old oral traditions and gaps not to consider the Bloodline as a possibility.

Right, then. Yet, this might be a matter of time. There are, too, following WWII, serious curbs upon what we call "free" speech in some parts of Europe, notably Germany. At any rate, Anti-American sentiment seems to be running increasingly deep in Europe, the “IMF/World Bank” paradigm (with which America is identified) is proving problematic, the gold which was called multi-culturalism increasingly, in practice, resembles lead, and Europe, which, unlike America, has a true hard (i.e, identitarian, monarchical) right and hard (Marxist, egalitarian) left, might yet discover that it is going to take a great deal more than an economic model, and a faulty one at that, to unite the lot of them. Enter, then, a Rex Mundi.


Thanks, as always, for playing,


Serv

 

[radarmark]

Serv,

Yep, daat'si to everything. It is possible. Good point on Europe's hard-right. I personally put a little more credence in "bloodline" than I do in the "illuminati" or "freemasonry" threats (but all three up in the 30-50% likelihood).

As long as you know it's play, I am content, Friend.

 

[bananabrain]

God have mercy on us for the millions of Jewish lives we have lost as a result of that "Christian love relationship with God" throughout History.

could you dial down the self-righteousness just a tad, d'ye think?

I am afraid that's pretty much what Jesus allowed himself to reveal about the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles.

that's not really a fair representation of what is actually the case; your language suggests this to be an ongoing situation, whereas this merely represents the sort of language used in the context of a violent pagan society like the roman military governorship or the persian despotism current during the talmudic period.

Jesus himself might have been trying to decide whether to become a Talmudist or a Christian.

*BUZZ* false dichotomy alert! at this point, quite apart from the matter that there isn't such a thing as a christian, there isn't really any such thing as a "talmudist". rabbinic judaism (which is more or less covered by the new testament categories of "pharisees" and "doctors of law", but that's being very simplistic) doesn't come into ascendancy until at least 50 years later, after the destruction of the Temple. and it really doesn't hit its moral stride until the hadrianic persecutions and the bar kokhba revolt. within the "talmudic" strain there are people with more isolationist tendencies as well as those with more universalist tendencies; remember at this point judaism had not started to actively discourage proselytisation and there were still plenty of people coming in and out, plus a myriad of sects, very few of which are really understood by the writers of the NT as i understand it - i mean, it's not that relevant to them except as people who are compared to jesus and found wanting.

the Gentile woman was soon able to win Jesus over and the story ends rather happily, with a healing and, metaphorically speaking, the Gentile pit-bull converted into a loving and harmless poodle.

perhaps jesus went along with it in order to prevent her shopping him to the authorities on some sort of trumped-up charge: "he cursed my child!" - that would come under a number of halakhic rubrics, but particularly kiddush haShem or, if you prefer, a good pr opportunity.

I assumed the campaign, or, depending upon one's point of view, holy war, against the Canaanites was complete and that not only their men but also their women, children, cattle, pit-bulls, poodles and gold fish had been decimated in the process.

the gibeonites are extensively treated in the halakhah; they have a special halakhic status called "nethin". there were still a few around at the time, but not anymore; there were restrictions on intermarrying with them but generally speaking they were treated as something more than resident aliens. on the other hand, the canaanites were very much still around - the phoenicians were a canaanite people, but not of the "seven nations" that we were commanded to get rid of (a command we did not in fact carry out) and the confusion over this sort of thing eventually resulted in the decision that "sennacherib mixed up the nations" and hence it was no longer possible to determine someone's "national status" for purposes of "seven-nations idolatry". none of this, of course, is relevant to the writers of the new testament, but jesus would undoubtedly have been aware of it.

Jesus became one of the first Jews on record to transcend the limitations of his national exclusivism and bias

i don't think i would totally disagree with this; that process was what we had to go through after the "causeless hatred" engendered by this resulted in the destruction of the second Temple and the end of the second jewish commonwealth. it is a shame that the kamtzas and bar kamtzas in the knesset do not consider this more often.

a dangerous new movement -a universal religion

you have correctly identified precisely what judaism at its best solves by its particularism and which supercessionism in christianity and islam builds into intolerance and oppression.

“I am not a Jew,” Trotsky is said to have said (though I quote from memory), “I am an Internationalist.”

non-religious jews are also marked for murder by those who want us dead, so this way of solving the world's problems is also futile - to say nothing of communism's own pretensions to be a universal religion and its consequent totalitarian development.

I think Jesus' movement can be likened to today's Chabad. The attitudes that Jesus and his followers would have had to Gentiles would have been similar to those Lubavitchers have.

oh, the irony! hur hur hur. of course, the lubavitchers would *never* acclaim their rebbe as the "king messiah" and then deify him after his death, sorry "occultation"... oh, wait, hang on a minute....

If Jesus and Schneerson switched places, history probably wouldn't change. They're like identical parts from a factory.

for me, of course, this is more about the "mental software packages" available to both sets of followers; the leader/teacher's behaviour is interpreted in terms of how they understand it.

Ben Masada, as a Jew you have to decide whether to follow Orthodox or Reform Judaism. Until Jews can come to a consensus on whether Orthodox or Reform Judaism is the right path, I cannot be sure whether or not Paul was right in saying that the old requirements are no longer valid. This is one of those instances where adherents of one religion influence those of another.

i think you'll find it's a lot more complicated than "pick a team".

to be perfectly blunt, I think Hitler may have been karma for the returning to the holy place.

well, to be perfectly blunt, feck you if you don't like it, you smug, self-righteous dismisser of genocide.

the current jewish occupation of palestine

i'm not sure i care for your tone here. long may it remain "current". for us, it is (hopefully) the long-awaited and prophesied return to our homeland that we have awaited and prayed for for nearly 2,000 years - against all odds.

brutal oppression of the Palestinian people

you probably know my thoughts on this. oppression of the palestinians is something for which we are paying a heavy price in blood and morality. it will need to be sorted out, but for this to happen the *ENTIRE* problem will need to be fixed. people will need to stop thinking that the jewish presence is "current" or temporary. people will need to stop thinking we will quietly accept annihilation. we will not. but, similarly, arrogance, hubris and causeless hatred will need to cease among EVERYONE concerned.

Check History, there was never a country called Palestine.

but there are now, very definitely, a people called palestinians and they want self-determination. this cannot be denied them. of course, it would be best if their self-determination were exercised in a sensible, peaceable way, without the imposition of selfish outsiders (in which i include the likes of the iranians, the saudis and the hard left).

Israel is basically a fascist aparteid state, where the ruling race the jews brutally opress the native people the palestinians, just look at the facts and see who's dieing.

what a simplistic, one-sided leftie-media-driven nonsense view. so what about the israeli arabs who are in government, run hospitals, vote? what about the palestinians that brutally murder jews for being jews? what about the fact that your so-called "native people" can be demonstrably shown to share not only their linguistic roots, but a lot of their DNA with the "colonisers"? what about the half of israel's population that came from arab states and the way they were treated there? as veterans of the anti-apartheid struggle are now starting to stand up and say, people who consider israel to be "apartheid" simply don't understand what apartheid was and that cheapens and degrades the struggle that south africa went through. try reading something other than the guardian once in a while.

The world will never be able to solve the problem that is Israel.

not without the israelis and palestinians, the jews and the arabs and the muslims all wanting to solve the problem equitably. i actually highlighted one of the more sensible peace plans not so long ago; search for "ray hanania" on this site.

The Zionists, Illuminatis, fundamentalist terrorists and others who believe in violence

oh, for feck's sake. i'm a zionist. i don't believe in violence except in self-defence. i've never heard of illuminati outside dan brown and conspiracy websites. don't be so silly.

John Hagee is safely restricted to the precincts of the Court of the Gentiles, he functions as a shameless temple prostitute for Israel.

and we all know what judaism thinks of that sort of person. so-called "christian zionists" are no friends of us; they have an entirely different agenda and the more fool those right-wing idiots that think they can use these maniacs to further their own agenda.

Hating Palestinians is, in other words, the only permissible form of antisemitism.

don't fall for that old chestnut. there is no such group as "semites". "semitic" is a term from sociolinguistics, not ethnology. jew-hatred is jew-hatred, arab-hatred is arab-hatred and bigotry, in the final analysis, is bigotry.

Tell them that, when you speak to them. But, if you do, be forewarned: your building fund might dry up.

and good thing too. it is tainted money.

There were approximately 1,400 casualties in Gaza, one- or two-thirds of which (depending on whom you ask) were civilians, women, and children.

it is a shame that those maniacs in hamas decided that there was propaganda value in placing their rocket batteries in civilian areas and making weapons dumps in schools. it is a shame that they decided to kidnap gilad shalit in the first place. it is a shame that they view their own dead as a *positive* outcome. you should read the [british] colonel richard kemp on the tactics used in gaza. then you might try comparing it with the tactics that the assad clan are using to hang on to power against their own people, not even an aggressive nation-state bordering on their own. more than 5,000 people they've killed. where are the protests? where are the bleeding-heart liberals demanding action? where are the marches, the campaigns, the boycott, divestment and sanctions crew? i don't see george galloway or the IHH organising flotillas to syria. what hypocrites people are.

To believe in the IDF is to believe in survival. Were not for the IDF we would be all drawn in the Mediterranean Sea today.

that's just as simplistic. we need more than the IDF to build a sustainable culture. i am not saying that the ability to defend ourselves isn't important, of course, it's critical. it's just not enough to base an entire civilisation on. for that we also need, as the sages said, Torah, righteousness and compassion. this also, incidentally, means that yeshivas are not the answer to everything either, nor are hi-tech start-ups, nor are settlements, nor are universities, nor are forests, nor are human rights groups or anything else. read rav kook. it's all about *everything*. geulah (redemption) cannot come from the blood of innocents - ours or theirs.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Lunitik]

well, to be perfectly blunt, feck you if you don't like it, you smug, self-righteous dismisser of genocide.

I dismiss nothing, I simply am not biased.

The Jews killed thousands, perhaps millions to take over the land of Israel - it is all there, recorded in your very Holy texts, and it merely set the stage for what was to come.

No group has experienced the type of violence against it that has befallen the Jew, and yet no group has inflicted or been the cause of as much throughout history either! Let us not forget that the Christians and Muslims remain merely the fighting sons of Abraham, there has never been peace for the Jew, yet Jerusalem means 'place of peace' - I find this ironic, personally.

This says nothing of the poverty which the Jews are inflicted with in places like Eastern Europe, yet these are God's chosen people? I do not understand, but that is just me.

For me, something has clearly gone awry.

 

[Lunitik]

This does not even mention that Hitler was a Jew, neither does it raise the point that Einstein too was a Jew and was responsible for the atomic bomb.

I only wish the son's could come back together, that the father can somehow reunite them that they might live in peace finally. All are too stubborn though, the father is dying and the boys remain fighting over him - one wishes to pull the plug, the other to prolong his life a little more - this is all over the news today. I say he is dying because there are less than ten million Jews left in the world, not for any other reason, it is simply fading away and the Rabbi's are aware of it.

The entire fight between the sons is over which Abraham has loved more, Ishmael or Isaac. Jesus comes from the line of Isaac, Muhammad from the line of Ishmael. Can it be that this is what the story of Cain and Abel depict? Is it destined that one brother kill the other?

Will this planet survive their squabble? This is what I am concerned about...

I blame the anger in the Torah for this, yet it is irrelevant if they can come back together under a new banner, a new Jerusalem.

The best opportunity I know is there in Akka as the Torah says will be the new home, who knows what I mean?

The fractions in the House of Abraham must be mended.

Most intuit this cause, who can figure out how to heal it? There must be a way to find common ground, some arrangement that both brothers can agree upon - such an offer has already been presented, how many are even aware of this?

 

[radarmark]

Okay, calm down, you all. Always seems to happen when the Jewish Question comes up. They (we, my blessed Mother was a Jewess) are our older siblings. Everyone in the Western Tradition from Moses to Bab are not just religiously related, but actually Seeds of Abraham.

A few points. Lunitik, you are on rteally thin ice here. You can spout off what you want about your religious beliefs, but there is just no definative proof that (1) Jews killed millions (even if you think the ancient Israelis were Jews), (2) that Einstein was "responsible for the bomb" (not even Leo Slizard, the man who really was and who got Einstein involved would accept that), or (3) Hitler was Jewish. Your I'm right and you are wrong, over the top attitude may influence us about religion, but this is history and you cannot re-write it from on high.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I dismiss nothing, I simply am not biased.

The Jews killed thousands, perhaps millions to take over the land of Israel - it is all there, recorded in your very Holy texts, and it merely set the stage for what was to come.

No group has experienced the type of violence against it that has befallen the Jew, and yet no group has inflicted or been the cause of as much throughout history either! Let us not forget that the Christians and Muslims remain merely the fighting sons of Abraham, there has never been peace for the Jew, yet Jerusalem means 'place of peace' - I find this ironic, personally.

This says nothing of the poverty which the Jews are inflicted with in places like Eastern Europe, yet these are God's chosen people? I do not understand, but that is just me.

For me, something has clearly gone awry.

Lunitik, I don't find this acceptable. I don't think you and I agree on anything, but I respect you as an individual. I'm losing that respect for you when you write things like this. I would prefer that you would understand why you are incorrect but I would be satisfied with your silence on the topic.

 

[Lunitik]

Okay, calm down, you all. Always seems to happen when the Jewish Question comes up. They (we, my blessed Mother was a Jewess) are our older siblings. Everyone in the Western Tradition from Moses to Bab are not just religiously related, but actually Seeds of Abraham.

A few points. Lunitik, you are on rteally thin ice here. You can spout off what you want about your religious beliefs, but there is just no definative proof that (1) Jews killed millions (even if you think the ancient Israelis were Jews), (2) that Einstein was "responsible for the bomb" (not even Leo Slizard, the man who really was and who got Einstein involved would accept that), or (3) Hitler was Jewish. Your I'm right and you are wrong, over the top attitude may influence us about religion, but this is history and you cannot re-write it from on high.

Sorry, but DNA disagrees on Hitler and Einstein was certainly involved in the research relating to the creation of the atomic bomb.

Debating the number of people who have died during the many wars noted in the Bible, and the many more since is useless. If we want to count the entire Abrahamic line it undoubtedly goes into billions. That even one has died to fulfill prophecy, for me, is disgusting.

Your own views on the matter are irrelevant, I have spoken the truth.

I find the reactions interesting, however.

 

[Lunitik]

That is just it though, for me the entire Abrahamic tree has birthed nothing but poison. This will offend many, and I still love the mystic traditions which have stemmed from them, that have taken Eastern thought and molded it into their scriptures, but simply look around at the world today - see that all the bad you see stems from this line. Right now, the US is trying to negotiate peace between Iran and Israel for the same fight which has been ongoing for centuries. Why do people still adhere to this nonsense? It is disgusting, but it is because it was forced on each of our ancestors by Rome - in part - and we have simply inherited it, continued the traditions of hate.

You have brought in Bab, do you know he has tried to wage war also against the Muslims? Then there is his successor, Baha'u'llah, I suggest you read into his concept of "Entry by Troops", for they plan a violent takeover in the future, and while many try to avoid the topic, still it is something commonly understood if you go into their inner circles - this is the principle reason I am not a Baha'i today, that and I do not believe Manifestation is unique to only a few beings, for if it is so I am a Manifestation 830+ years early.

At least the Baha'i Faith attempts to bring the brothers together again though, this is a start. It also creates an environment which is more open, this will also help. Now people can find a way towards the good fruit. I do not see it happening though, truthfully, I am certain that this planet will not last 200 more years, this is my sadness, and it is only this branch which is doing it.

I pray I am wrong.

 

[Lunitik]

Not that I am saying the other branches are any better, each have their flaws, but none have created the violence and destruction of the Abrahamic line. Buddhism represses too much and is basically escapist, Hinduism has made its people lethargic and pacifist. Sikhism and the Baha'i Faith both continue repression, it is because these are all basically founded in the old ways. This is where the old ways have brought us - the brink of destruction.

Something new needs to come in, and it is, slowly but surely.

I am not sure it will be enough, though.

 

[Lunitik]

I hope all see this is the inevitable course which arises from trying to improve the perfect.

Iran has nuclear weapons, it is only a matter of who fires first.

Iran's leaders are convinced their Mehdi is in the world, this is their propaganda to convince their people it is time for war.

It will be the Muslim Ummah vs Christendom - but it will not be only the Abrahamic line which suffers.

This is why so many enlightened ones have been arising.

It is plain for us all.

 

[radarmark]

Sorry, but DNA disagrees on Hitler and Einstein was certainly involved in the research relating to the creation of the atomic bomb.

Your first site says "may" "based on tests of surviving relatives". Look into it farther, the odds are several hundered tousand to one (not "truth"). Quoting frm the second one "the atomic bomb would have been invented without Einstein's letters" and "Einstein's advice on a theoretical problem involved in separating fissionable material by gaseous diffusion". The first point says (per your source) his contributions did not matter. The second is a probablem in power production as well (which is what it was ultimately used for). So both of your claims are FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

Debating the number of people who have died during the many wars noted in the Bible, and the many more since is useless. If we want to count the entire Abrahamic line it undoubtedly goes into billions. That even one has died to fulfill prophecy, for me, is disgusting.

No mathematician in his right mind would support such a ill-founded theis. Just proof how fimsy your arguments are.

Your own views on the matter are irrelevant, I have spoken the truth.

I find the reactions interesting, however.

Nope, let me repeat, you made a mistake, you are factually incorrect, you are wrong, what you are stating in not turth but either mistakes (you did not take time to read) or falsehoods.

I find your mindleassertion of truth quite revealing about your character.

 

[Lunitik]

I find your inability to spell in this post revealing of your reaction.

Just to clear it up though: I have no character, character is formed through ego, it is founded in past experience not the present moment.

As I have said before, it is only the lie which caters to the opinions and feelings of the other, truth does not care whether you accept or reject, it is simply the case. Blunting truth creates of it a lie, for it has become false. Anything which is not absolute truth must be taken as such, for it is no longer honest.

 

[Lunitik]

That seems like a character statement, perhaps, or some moral you have heard. Yet in hearing it, you can easily justify 'little white lies', all go on doing this.

Honesty is intrinsic in love, the moral or ethical statement arises out of it.

You have not looked at all at my other statements, you have not even considered where this world is going with increasingly powerful weapons and increasingly insistent extremists. Jews are the same way towards Christians as Muslims are, and of course we all know the rest of the history here...

Look at this video and tell me whether you will respect such people:

Typical israeli jew abuse against Christians We killed Jesus & We're Proud of it etc - YouTube

There are many examples of this, it is not at all a rarity in Israel.

 

[Lunitik]

No hatred is right, all that I say is with love.

Sometimes it is necessary to shock, for you will have to look closer at why you react to it... I am not here to make anyone feel good, I am here to destroy all because I know only your destruction will allow truth to arise.

None of the Abrahamic lines are innocent though, Christians have their KKK and Nazi groups across the world and they are all REQUIRED to be usually protestant but more recently any branch of Christian. There are videos of their camps all over YouTube as well, just as there is similar for Muslims. Israels very military is a religious entity, it cannot be otherwise.

You have not even attempted to see my words with an open mind, you have seen them as hate, but it is because I love this planet, I do not want to see it destroyed by mans foolishness.

Attachment and identification with anything is exactly that, including God.

Even God is merely a concept you have accepted.

 

[Lunitik]

You can say 'not all are like this', but that is irrelevant, for it shows the possibility is there - that is enough. It shows that raising your offspring in this environment, these things can be a possible result. Maybe not that generation or the one after it, but there remains a chance.

Jesus himself says a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, I must conclude that they are each bad trees, I must conclude that truth must be somewhere else.

 

[radarmark]

You are not only wrong, but admit it, you are lying. Period.

 

[Lunitik]

You are not only wrong, but admit it, you are lying. Period.

What am I wrong about?

I do not wish to debate what you have addressed for it is irrelevant, it was for shock value to make you look more closely - it has worked at least in part. Yet it is not a lie, it is at least supportable truth.

Now I am asking you to see what else I have said, yet you are stuck in your stupidity, you cannot move on from your identifications, you need to defend your beliefs because they are part of your ego identification. Being Christian, you have to accept the gross content of the OT, you do not like that this is being called into question.

Please look at this.

 

[radarmark]

In your post your claims of Jewishness of Hitler, Einstein responsible for atomic bomb, and Jews have killed millions (using your references) were shown false. That is, how most use the work: it does not correspond to any actual events that happened and are of very, very low probability (merely possible, not true).