The Pauline Paradox

[Ben Masada]

you're begging a question, namely:

"how is it clear that exercising either your intellect or your free will leads one to conclude that homosexual feelings should not be acted upon?"

in other words, there are plenty of very, very rational homosexuals. look at lord browne, for one - used to be the ceo of bp. is elton john irrational? is peter mandelson not exercising his intellect and free will? why, exactly do you assume that one's intellect must always rule one's emotions? if you have kids, are you always intellectual about how you feel about them?

Let us try just one more time by reviewing the atomic structure. If it does not work, I'll be more than glad to quit this subject.

According to the atomic structure, like charges repel one another and unlike charges attract each other. Now, let us assimilate the proton with man and the electron with the woman.

All protons repel all other protons, and the electrons repel other electrons. But protons attract electrons, as these attract those.

The newtron, which is also part of the atomic structure, neither attracts nor repels. This is the facsimile for those whose emotions are not excited by the opposite.They are expected to remain, as the word says, newtral. And this is not going against man's nature because Reason has been provided to humans in order to keep the distortion of one's emotions in check. A thing that is not present in the irrational animal. If this does not make sense to you, as I promised, no more about this disgusting subject. You don't even have to waste your time with further replies. I am out.
Ben

 

[bananabrain]

According to the atomic structure, like charges repel one another and unlike charges attract each other. Now, let us assimilate the proton with man and the electron with the woman.

but this analogy is faulty from the get-go. your argument is a moral one and people are not particles. particles do not have moral sense - in fact, whatever it is that causes homosexuality, it is clear from the presentation in animal species that there is some kind of genetic or evolutionary reason for it; the gay penguins in berlin zoo are not rebelling against the Torah.

The newtron, which is also part of the atomic structure, neither attracts nor repels. This is the facsimile for those whose emotions are not excited by the opposite. They are expected to remain, as the word says, newtral.

yes, but there are also asexual or neuter or androgynous humans, so this is not a suitable analogy.

And this is not going against man's nature

but you have failed to establish what man's nature is in the first place.

because Reason has been provided to humans in order to keep the distortion of one's emotions in check. A thing that is not present in the irrational animal.

but you must also admit that reason alone is not a sufficient basis for human existence; i assume you think that emotion and the need for love, companionship and intimacy, either physical or otherwise, should not always be subject to the dictates of reason.

If this does not make sense to you, as I promised, no more about this disgusting subject.

it doesn't make sense and here, you are leaving the field of rationality with an appeal to emotions - disgust, forsooth. look, i really do suggest that you are not in a position to dictate to people what constitutes fulfilment of their emotional and physical needs, but it can be demonstrated that bottling them up is surely a bad idea, as is asking people whose needs you find distateful to be celibate - you're critical enough of the catholic church in other ways, but this of all things you agree with them on?

You don't even have to waste your time with further replies. I am out.

it would be more intellectually honest of you to admit that you can't really explain this and more rational of you to actually go and talk to someone gay about what makes them tick. the natural argument is not really available, the rational argument is not really available and, in not a few people's view, the religious argument is increasingly unavailable to the non-totalitarian mind. you know, you (and i) are both proud of israel's ability to be different; nobody is asking you to join the tel aviv gay pride parade, but thanks to the zionist dream, you can actually have this conversation in your own country! i don't really understand homosexuality myself, so the logical and rational thing for me to do to understand it was to go and ask someone who did. it didn't "make me gay", but it did help me understand that G!D's Creation is very, very complex - ineffably so, to be frank. in fact, i suggest you watch the film "trembling before G!D", an exploration of how frum people cope with actually being gay.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[iBrian]

What becomes unnatural about human homosexuality is the choice not to use one's intellect and free will to control one's emotions. Then comes the excuse to compare oneself with the irrational animal that practices homosexuality. That's natural of the irrational animal but not of humans. We have the power to control our emontions, which some just choose not to use it.
Ben

You seem to be arguing against a sexuality in general here - because, after all, sex is arguably an emotional experience. And by your argument, should not be practiced in any form because we should trascend emotions.

 

[Ben Masada]

but this analogy is faulty from the get-go. your argument is a moral one and people are not particles. particles do not have moral sense - in fact, whatever it is that causes homosexuality, it is clear from the presentation in animal species that there is some kind of genetic or evolutionary reason for it; the gay penguins in berlin zoo are not rebelling against the Torah.

yes, but there are also asexual or neuter or androgynous humans, so this is not a suitable analogy.

but you have failed to establish what man's nature is in the first place.

but you must also admit that reason alone is not a sufficient basis for human existence; i assume you think that emotion and the need for love, companionship and intimacy, either physical or otherwise, should not always be subject to the dictates of reason.

it doesn't make sense and here, you are leaving the field of rationality with an appeal to emotions - disgust, forsooth. look, i really do suggest that you are not in a position to dictate to people what constitutes fulfilment of their emotional and physical needs, but it can be demonstrated that bottling them up is surely a bad idea, as is asking people whose needs you find distateful to be celibate - you're critical enough of the catholic church in other ways, but this of all things you agree with them on?

it would be more intellectually honest of you to admit that you can't really explain this and more rational of you to actually go and talk to someone gay about what makes them tick. the natural argument is not really available, the rational argument is not really available and, in not a few people's view, the religious argument is increasingly unavailable to the non-totalitarian mind. you know, you (and i) are both proud of israel's ability to be different; nobody is asking you to join the tel aviv gay pride parade, but thanks to the zionist dream, you can actually have this conversation in your own country! i don't really understand homosexuality myself, so the logical and rational thing for me to do to understand it was to go and ask someone who did. it didn't "make me gay", but it did help me understand that G!D's Creation is very, very complex - ineffably so, to be frank. in fact, i suggest you watch the film "trembling before G!D", an exploration of how frum people cope with actually being gay.

b'shalom

bananabrain

I leave you with Ecclesiastes 7:29.

 

[Ben Masada]

You seem to be arguing against a sexuality in general here - because, after all, sex is arguably an emotional experience. And by your argument, should not be practiced in any form because we should trascend emotions.

I can't believe you have put this into writing! "Sex is arguably an emotional experience." There is no stronger emotion than sex. Only Intellect can be stronger in the case of humans, if they are free to will it into sublimations.
Ben

 

[radarmark]

Sex is not an emotion. Lust may be, love may be, affection may be... sex is an act. Enjoyable and pleasure-filled, but nonetheless not an emotion.

 

[Ben Masada]

Sex is not an emotion. Lust may be, love may be, affection may be... sex is an act. Enjoyable and pleasure-filled, but nonetheless not an emotion.

Well, every one has all the right in the world to his own opinion. As far as I am concerned, sex is the climax of an eruption of emotions.
Ben

 

[Servetus]

... If this does not make sense to you, as I promised, no more about this disgusting subject. You don't even have to waste your time with further replies. I am out.

[tongue-in-cheek mode on]

Not so fast there, Ben. Your first sentence has registered an 8.5 on the homophobia meter. The subject is not disgusting. As any happy multi-culturalist (and Woody Trotsky) will tell you, homophobia, like anti-Semitism, is a big No No! If you want to overcome it, homophobia, that is, I suggest a three-week therapy session, consisting of one week of forcing yourself to watch the film, prepared by Dutch immigration officials for unacculturated Muslims, of two men kissing; another week of Brokeback Mountain on continuous loop; followed by a final week of non-stop listening to every RuPaul tune ever recorded.

That ought to do it.

[tongue-in-cheek mode off]

Serv

 

[Ben Masada]

[tongue-in-cheek mode on]

Not so fast there, Ben. Your first sentence has registered an 8.5 on the homophobia meter. The subject is not disgusting. As any happy multi-culturalist (and Woody Trotsky) will tell you, homophobia, like anti-Semitism, is a big No No! If you want to overcome it, homophobia, that is, I suggest a three-week therapy session, consisting of one week of forcing yourself to watch the film, prepared by Dutch immigration officials for unacculturated Muslims, of two men kissing; another week of Brokeback Mountain on continuous loop; followed by a final week of non-stop listening to every RuPaul tune ever recorded.

That ought to do it.

[tongue-in-cheek mode off]

Serv

Interesting that, by coincidence, I just watched a TV program about a former homosexual man being interviewed and saying that he was a born-again Christian who after his conversion got married to a former lesbian and had become both a father and mother to their children. The most important thing he said is that no one is born homosexual but becomes one mainly because of emotional insecurities and loose sense of morality. As he said that, Ecclesiastes 7:29 popped up in my mind: "Behold, only this have I found out: That God made Mankind straight, but men have had recourse to many calculations."

Ben

 

[Thomas]

The most important thing he said is that no one is born homosexual but becomes one mainly because of emotional insecurities and loose sense of morality.

Bollocks.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[wil]

Yes Ben, this is yet another 'Christian'' embarrassment, this whole 'curing' of queers. And then when it backfires and they can't take the lie they are living....'the devil got them again'.

Remember as a child when you were first attracted to women? The gays I know, and I ask...most were never attracted to women...and were first attracted to men...and have always been
attracted to men.

We've used the bible to keep slavery alive....to call interracial marriage a sin... and now we are using it to demean and ostracise homosexuals... it is an embarrassment not only to thinking people, and spiritual people...but to us Christians as well.

I know, I know, we done dint listen to you before....and now we got one of them uppity half breeds in the whitehouse...golly you were right all along Ben...and the drought, tsunami, earthquakes, men laying with men...its the signs...its the signs....

 

[Ben Masada]

Bollocks.

God bless,

Thomas

Why bollocks? Does it mean you don't agree with the testimony of this former homosexual man? Why would he demoralize the whole gay community by speaking thus in public? They said that the interview has been recorded in CD, and that we could find it in any public library.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

Yes Ben, this is yet another 'Christian'' embarrassment, this whole 'curing' of queers. And then when it backfires and they can't take the lie they are living....'the devil got them again'.

Remember as a child when you were first attracted to women? The gays I know, and I ask...most were never attracted to women...and were first attracted to men...and have always been
attracted to men.

We've used the bible to keep slavery alive....to call interracial marriage a sin... and now we are using it to demean and ostracise homosexuals... it is an embarrassment not only to thinking people, and spiritual people...but to us Christians as well.

I know, I know, we done dint listen to you before....and now we got one of them uppity half breeds in the whitehouse...golly you were right all along Ben...and the drought, tsunami, earthquakes, men laying with men...its the signs...its the signs....

Hey Will, all I did was to share with the posters here the testimony of a former homosexual man, who had been all his life attracted to those of his kind. Why, instead of criticizing me, you don't tell me what triggered his hormones to, all of a sudden, be now attracted to women, so much so as to marry one and raise a family of his own? If his testimony is so negative to gay people, take up on him and not on me.

Ben

 

[radarmark]

Well, my question is "what triggered yours"? I belive you are quoting scripture the way that Rand and Swift (big Cristian Identity Preachers) or Whitefield (big Evangelical Preacher whose semons justified slavery). The problem here is the emotional reaction to (take your choice) freeing slaves, blacks being equal l or homosexuals being equal.

There is really no commandment as such in the OT or NT about this. G!D does not care if we are gay or not. What makes you the final arbitrator?

It is merely an emotional reaction. As my first wife said to my brother-in-law "do you just want sesx with another man that badly?"

 

[wil]

Hey Will, all I did was to share with the posters here the testimony of a former homosexual man, who had been all his life attracted to those of his kind. Why, instead of criticizing me, you don't tell me what triggered his hormones to, all of a sudden, be now attracted to women, so much so as to marry one and raise a family of his own? If his testimony is so negative to gay people, take up on him and not on me.

Ben

It is the testimony of one man.... third party at that...so far it has the validity of the national enquirer...an expert says....an inside source reveals...

there are hundreds of thousands of homosexuals against this one testimony...and yes for some it is choice, they are free spirits on sexual adventures, or for some they were abused as a child and this became the norm....

For some that change it is the societal peer pressure, especially amongst born agains... and they may lie to keep up the ruse just as they lied to stay in the closet....

anecdotal evidence of anything is anecdotal.... I met a gay healing preacher, he was a friend of a friend...they went to the same church, I heard his sanctimonious bullcrap on infinitum am I making rash generalizations....Yes. But I know this fellows book deal went south when the publisher wanted corroborating evidence and a number of his success stories had since ....turned back....despite the ostracising and threat of hell and damnation....oh how fun you folks are.

 

[iBrian]

Interesting that, by coincidence, I just watched a TV program about a former homosexual man being interviewed and saying that he was a born-again Christian who after his conversion got married to a former lesbian and had become both a father and mother to their children. The most important thing he said is that no one is born homosexual but becomes one mainly because of emotional insecurities and loose sense of morality. As he said that, Ecclesiastes 7:29 popped up in my mind: "Behold, only this have I found out: That God made Mankind straight, but men have had recourse to many calculations."

This is exactly what you'd expect when someone has been brain-washed by a religious group to deny his sexuality - as is obviously the case in being paired up with a lesbian to raise children. It's a propaganda piece, and hardly deserves any kind of credit on the subject.

 

[Thomas]

Why bollocks?

Because the evidence points overwhelmingly to that not being the case.

Other evidence also points to people who attached themselves to an identifiable group and who then assume the group character to better fit in, even when it conflicts with their own natural inclinations.

It's called group psychology, or something ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Servetus]

... he was a born-again Christian who after his conversion got married to a former lesbian and had become both a father and mother to their children.

He probably makes an excellent father and mother. But seriously, I don't doubt that: sexuality is fluid and Jesus even said that there would be eunuchs for the Kingdom. Although Woody Trotsky is not yet among them (and, for that matter, he is not a Christian), I have known some guys who were promiscuous but who, after consideration, became celibate. It happens.

Serv

 

[Ben Masada]

Well, my question is "what triggered yours"? I belive you are quoting scripture the way that Rand and Swift (big Cristian Identity Preachers) or Whitefield (big Evangelical Preacher whose semons justified slavery). The problem here is the emotional reaction to (take your choice) freeing slaves, blacks being equal l or homosexuals being equal.

There is really no commandment as such in the OT or NT about this. G!D does not care if we are gay or not. What makes you the final arbitrator?

It is merely an emotional reaction. As my first wife said to my brother-in-law "do you just want sesx with another man that badly?"

Hey Radarmark, you didn't have to get God into this. He has nothing to do with whatever we choose to do, as long as we are aware of the law of cause and effect. He granted us the attribute of free will. So, whatever we do with it, that's up to us. If there is any commandment pro or against whatever we do, it is still up to us to obey it or not.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

It is the testimony of one man.... third party at that...so far it has the validity of the national enquirer...an expert says....an inside source reveals...

there are hundreds of thousands of homosexuals against this one testimony...and yes for some it is choice, they are free spirits on sexual adventures, or for some they were abused as a child and this became the norm....

For some that change it is the societal peer pressure, especially amongst born agains... and they may lie to keep up the ruse just as they lied to stay in the closet....

anecdotal evidence of anything is anecdotal.... I met a gay healing preacher, he was a friend of a friend...they went to the same church, I heard his sanctimonious bullcrap on infinitum am I making rash generalizations....Yes. But I know this fellows book deal went south when the publisher wanted corroborating evidence and a number of his success stories had since ....turned back....despite the ostracising and threat of hell and damnation....oh how fun you folks are.

You didn't answer my question. Many homosexuals justify their choice by saying that they were born so. A former long lived homosexual man declares that none is born a homosexual, but becomes one as a result of psychologial insecurities or just for being morally too loose. What is what if the regenerated one is lying?

Ben