What Could Be More Forgiving?

M

mojobadshah

Guest
Nanowati: obligation to allow even one's worst enemy into their homes, provide them with safe haven, and bread (nan) is one of the principles of the Pashtun (Aryan) unwritten constitution Pashtunwala. The concept forgiveness is oftentimes confounded with Christianity so much so that one would think "forgiveness" is the main message in Christianity. Whereas the Pashtun is obliged to provide nanowati to his worst enemy, Jesus drove his enemies, tax collectors out of his "father's house." But the main question here is what could be more forgiving than offering safe haven to your worst enemy?
 
does a broken record stuck in a loop make a sound in a room with no one in it ?
 
I would say that considering no man your enemy at all would be more forgiving. What you describe is basically a holier-than-thou approach, you are just rubbing it in that you are a better person "look, I hate you and still I give what I have to you", it is a show of superiority and nothing else.

Forgiveness means dropping the past, how can this person be a friend or an enemy if the past is truly dropped? They are simply your companion in this moment, nothing more can be said.
 
Lunitik said:
I would say that considering no man your enemy at all would be more forgiving. What you describe is basically a holier-than-thou approach, you are just rubbing it in that you are a better person "look, I hate you and still I give what I have to you", it is a show of superiority and nothing else.

Forgiveness means dropping the past, how can this person be a friend or an enemy if the past is truly dropped? They are simply your companion in this moment, nothing more can be said.
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Forgiveness is a very special thing opening the soul and mind up to the emotions of god and is the way he thinks.
 
Forgiveness was actually a term used for forgiving sin when referred to by the prophets and the Lord of hosts.

2 Chronicles 2:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray , and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
 
Lunitik said:
I would say that considering no man your enemy at all would be more forgiving. What you describe is basically a holier-than-thou approach, you are just rubbing it in that you are a better person "look, I hate you and still I give what I have to you", it is a show of superiority and nothing else.
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I am not that good of a person. I try to be a good host, but even in America I am very reserved about letting just anyone into my home. These are ideals we're talking about. I just find it interesting that the Pashtuns have this "love your enemy" principle which is so much a part of their culture that it is part of their unwritten constitution Pashtunwala. It's very Christian wouldn't you agree? I'm just curious as to what came first Pashtunwala which I assume is as old as the history of the Pashtun or Jesus and whether maybe one had an influence on the other. Can anyone think other cultures that propitate this ideal so overtly?
 
mojobadshah said:
I am not that good of a person. I try to be a good host, but even in America I am very reserved about letting just anyone into my home. These are ideals we're talking about. I just find it interesting that the Pashtuns have this "love your enemy" principle which is so much a part of their culture that it is part of their unwritten constitution Pashtunwala. It's very Christian wouldn't you agree? I'm just curious as to what came first Pashtunwala which I assume is as old as the history of the Pashtun or Jesus and whether maybe one had an influence on the other. Can anyone think other cultures that propitate this ideal so overtly?
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It's like where Carly Simon said to James Taylor,
... You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you. Don't you? Don't you?

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A 'Pashtun-wala' . . . Hmmm(?).

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The ethics of chivalry as practiced by the martial class of civic man is long embellished upon in the MahaBharata.

The Martial etiquette is the stop at night fall; and re-start at dawn. Also, to fight only equal ranks ---famously, hand-to-hand in front of all the ranks. Since then, ignoble traits dominate.

There's also a secular injuction in the vedas saying, that all visitors calling at your door must be at minimum be offered water to drink.
 
mojobadshah said:
Very interesting. Could you site this?
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In the commentarty by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami of the “Bhagavata Purana” Canto 11 Chap 22 verse 10:

In India the custom is that even an ordinary person is offered a glass of water if he suddenly visits and one cannot offer him foodstuff. If there is no water, then one can offer a sitting place, even if it is on straw mats. And if one has no straw mat, he can immediately cleanse the ground and ask the guest to sit there. Supposing that a householder cannot even do that, then with folded hands he can simply receive the guest, saying, “Welcome.” And if he cannot do that, then he should feel very sorry for his poor condition and shed tears and simply offer obeisances with his whole family, wife and children. In this way he can satisfy any guest, even if the guest is a saintly person or a king.

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This is the verse you prompted me to remember.

In this excerpt we find Sukadeva speaking to Maharaja Pariksit ---in the Twenty-sixth Chapter of Bhagavata-purana, where Sukadeva describes how a sinful man goes to different hells, where he is punished in various ways by the assistants of Yamaräja. [as translated by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami]:

SB 5.26.35

A householder who receives guests or visitors with cruel glances, as if to burn them to ashes, is put into the hell called Paryavartana, where he is gazed at by hard-eyed vultures, herons, crows and similar birds, which suddenly swoop down and pluck out his eyes with great force.”

PURPORT by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami:
According to the Vedic etiquette, even an enemy who comes to a householder’s home should be received in such a gentle way that he forgets that he has come to the home of an enemy. A guest who comes to one’s home should be received very politely. If he is unwanted, the householder should not stare at him with blinking eyes, for one who does so will be put into the hell known as Paryavartana after death, and there many ferocious birds like vultures, crows, and coknis will suddenly come upon him and pluck out his eyes.

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Apparently there is more to this topic than I have cited here. I presume there is more in the Mahabharata. Probably, one of the instructive speeches by Grandfather Bhishma . . . tbd
 
mojobadshah said:
The concept forgiveness is oftentimes confounded with Christianity so much so that one would think "forgiveness" is the main message in Christianity.
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One might, but that would be a shame. Love is the main message ... and forgiveness flows from that.

mojobadshah said:
Whereas the Pashtun is obliged to provide nanowati to his worst enemy, Jesus drove his enemies, tax collectors out of his "father's house."
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Ah ... as ever, context is all important.

Jesus endorses the message of forgiveness 'seventy times seven times' (Matthew 18:22), but He does not endorse hypocrisy ... and the cleansing of the Temple signifies that.

(Whilst on the subject, they were not tax collectors driven from the Temple, and Matthew was a tax collector, and Zachareus was a taz collector, and Jesus was often accused of being the friend of tax collectors, and drunks, and harlots ...)

Tell me, why is forgiveness so important in the Pashtunwala?

God bless,

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
Tell me, why is forgiveness so important in the Pashtunwala?
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The emphasis is on hospitality. But forgiveness is in the context. Nanowati or hospitality extends to even one's worst enemies. This to me sounds like the epitomy of forgiveness. "Love thy enemy." One explanation I came across for why the Pashtun's emphasize hospitality is because guests are considered a part of God.
 
mojobadshah said:
Nanowati: obligation to allow even one's worst enemy into their homes, provide them with safe haven, and bread (nan) is one of the principles of the Pashtun (Aryan) unwritten constitution Pashtunwala. The concept forgiveness is oftentimes confounded with Christianity so much so that one would think "forgiveness" is the main message in Christianity. Whereas the Pashtun is obliged to provide nanowati to his worst enemy, Jesus drove his enemies, tax collectors out of his "father's house." But the main question here is what could be more forgiving than offering safe haven to your worst enemy?
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Thus, perhaps, the interest in some quarters to determine if the Pashtuns are among the "lost tribes" of Israel.

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Serv
 
Servetus said:
Thus, perhaps, the interest in some quarters to determine if the Pashtuns are among the "lost tribes" of Israel.

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Serv
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If anything, it's the other way around. The lost tribes take their names from the Aryans e.g. Aspazai > Joseph. The Pashtuns are Aryans. Pashto is a living descendent of the language of Zarathushtra.
 
We have been over this more than once Yosef, Yosep, and Yusuf are Semetic names, with Semetic meanings. Nor iranian (or aryan, whatever that is).
 
mojobadshah said:
The emphasis is on hospitality ... One explanation I came across for why the Pashtun's emphasize hospitality is because guests are considered a part of God.
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"Love thy neighbour, because there is thy God" Apocryphal saying of the Fathers.

God bless,

Thomas
 
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