Beliefs About Poverty?

P

Persona

Guest
To me, the most spiritual expression is that of compassion for another human being, realizing that as part of the human race, we share in characteristics and potentials.

Never before in history, has there ever been so many suffering from EXTREME poverty. Almost 1,000,000,000 men, women & children are starving - tens of thousands die every day from preventable causes.
2012 World Hunger and Poverty Facts and Statistics by World Hunger Education Service
I'm not referring to basic poverty, but the extreme poverty which too often leads to death from preventable causes, simply because of a lack of resources.

Some throw up their hands & say, "What can we do about corruption... or laziness...?" While I acknowledge corruption, I also acknowledge my role in it, in consuming products exploited from poor countries. I know blame won't solve anything, but it is helpful to understand the cause before any solution can be effectively implemented.
The causes of poverty are varied, but generally, some reasons often are unfair trade agreements, inflated & high interest loans to "developed countries" & corruption, war, natural disasters, AIDs/Malaria & other diseases, & lack of Education.

It is difficult to understand without getting involved. All sources cannot help but be biased, so research & literature alone, are not enough to gain a clear understanding of poverty. Yet, I do think that it is important to examine our beliefs about poverty - causes & potential solutions.

So what do you think are possible causes of & solutions to poverty?
 
Perhaps greed is a cause? Learning to reduce this may then be a solution.
 
We do and it is. So we need to learn to say no.
 
Reducing the extremes of wealth and poverty seems to me to be a worthwhile goal.. A fair kind of graduated income tax that can help and profit sharing where employees can have a larger interest in the companies they work for...

Abdul-Baha delivered an address on the subject in Paris around 1911:

"A financier with colossal wealth should not exist whilst near him is a poor man in dire necessity. When we see poverty allowed to reach a condition of starvation it is a sure sign that somewhere we shall find tyranny. Men must bestir themselves in this matter, and no longer delay in altering conditions which bring the misery of grinding poverty to a very large number of the people. The rich must give of their abundance, they must soften their hearts and cultivate a compassionate intelligence, taking thought for those sad ones who are suffering from lack of the very necessities of life.

"There must be special laws made, dealing with these extremes of riches and of want. The members of the Government should consider the laws of God when they are framing plans for the ruling of the people. The general rights of mankind must be guarded and preserved.


"The government of the countries should conform to the Divine Law which gives equal justice to all. This is the only way in which the deplorable superfluity of great wealth and miserable, demoralizing, degrading poverty can be abolished. Not until this is done will the Law of God be obeyed."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 152
 
Okay, let me open my big progressive an scientist mouth. Yes, many more people starve and die today. Because we have more people. If you look at the average life expectancy of any country (including Southern Sudan and Ethiopea and Somalia) it has been going up. In fact they are higher than Britian's during the life of Hobbes.

So while it is still true that more then ever live in "continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short. " But the percentage is less. Hence, on the whole humanity is progressing (in terms of meeting the essential needs of water, food, shelter and fighting the pale horseman of pestulance and death).
 
noble, it is, to speak of ridding the world of poverty, and want, but, you won't manage it. It'll never happen. The capitalist system needs paupers. Without paupers, the aspiration game doesn't work quite so well.

I look at news footage, on TV, of these poor, starving people.

They wear Adidas, and Nike.

They must be making millions in sponsorship money...

(That was a joke, albeit in bad taste)...

Still, these people are poor. Proper poor. No shoes, and hungry. But, they still want Adidas and Nike. They still sit around the only TV in the villiage, watching rubbish TV. Give them loads of money, and they'll buy more sportswear, and gold chains and teeth, and big watches. Really, these poor people you watch on TV want the benefits of capitalism too. It's just that they haven't got them.

It's not my fault. I didn't make the world. I just came into it. And I don't see why it's up to me to fix it, either. I'd like to, of course, but I can't. I can fool myself and pretend I can fix everything, but I can't.

Nobody should starve. It's terrible. But, nobody should have to live in fear, either. And nobody should be beaten, or tortured, unless they really deserve it, and nobody should go without heat and light and a roof over their heads, and an education, and access to health care. But they do. And it isn't just in deepest darkest Africa amidst the heathens and savages. Human rights look good, on paper. It's only the rich who can afford them.

50% of European 16-24 year olds have no job, and by extention, no money either. If they're lucky, and let's face it, they are, they will get some form of state sponsored assistance. In a European context, these young people are ridiculously poor, and yet, they have been brought up to have such high expectations, and in real terms, they have nothing. We don't care about them. We sneer at them, and tell them to "get a job". They have nothing because they're workshy, and good-for-nothings.

Will they starve? No, because the other 50% pay taxes, which pays welfare, which means these unemployed people get food. But they won't have a house they own, or a car, or a small plot of land to raise chickens and potatoes. They'll eat cheap food, and wear cheap clothes, and they'll spawn children who'll receive a substandard education due to their parents lack of finances, and on it will go.

Being someone who works for a living, I give my money to the DEC when they tell me people are starving and dying and I must help. So, I do. It's small pennies, but it's what I can comfortably afford to give.

But sometimes I think -- why should I give money to India, when yes, there's a big disaster and people are suffering, but they put rockets into space, at a cost of billions... Why should I give money to feed a load of people who have been disposessed by warfare, when that nation can afford bullets? Why should I give money to provide an education to children who live in a tin shack in a country that mines diamonds..?

I see plenty of young single Mums in the UK who are underweight because they live on sandwiches because that enables them to spend money on their children. I can't invite them all 'round for dinner. I see little old ladies on the bus who've dyed their own shoes because they can't afford to buy new ones. If I could take them shopping, I would.

How poor is poor? All things are relative. Do you expect a man, with... arthritis, who cannot work, who receives £65 a week state sickness benefit, to give regular monthly donations to Oxfam, and WaterAid, and sporadic donations to DEC..?

Yes, this man could do this, but this man would have to choose between doing good and turning on his heating, because he couldn't do both...

And that man lives here, in England. In a land of plenty. Supposedly.

What is the answer?
 
Some kind of world sharing of natural resources, perhaps. One's birth shouldn't be the sentencing of whether you live in wealth or poverty or somewhere in between. A birth gift of sorts to get started properly.
Maybe some kind of reseting back to 0 at the end of each generation, with any extra going into a pool for the next generation born. This would include no permanent ownership of any natural resources, so it would be an open opportunity for each next generation. I'm thinking this should be done on a world wide basis.
 
It takes a village to raise a child ---but it isn't of primary concern.
The primary concern paying for commodities of "inflated" pricing.


The basis for a utopia ---vs a credo of 'survival-of-the-fittest' --the basis starts with child welfare.
But children are trained to "work the force".

The cost of foods increases inversly to the rise in techno-aided farming techniques ---ever the more, more ironic too, to think of the GMO "snake-oil as the status quo".

Only after the offence of selling a generation on a product ---does it become recognised as anti-progress.

Kudos to Germany for closing down the nuclear Plants in a yeras time. As I heard a Regular german say, "The goverment knows that can control the forces of Nuclear accidents"

I borrowed joedjr's statement:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/international-baby-party-12769.html#post266973
 
Snoopy said:
Perhaps greed is a cause? Learning to reduce this may then be a solution.
Click to expand...
I agree.
And I'm partly guilty here... but I'm trying to cut back on things, especially use of oil/gas/power.
 
arthra said:
Reducing the extremes of wealth and poverty seems to me to be a worthwhile goal.. A fair kind of graduated income tax that can help and profit sharing where employees can have a larger interest in the companies they work for...

Abdul-Baha delivered an address on the subject in Paris around 1911:

"A financier with colossal wealth should not exist whilst near him is a poor man in dire necessity. When we see poverty allowed to reach a condition of starvation it is a sure sign that somewhere we shall find tyranny. Men must bestir themselves in this matter, and no longer delay in altering conditions which bring the misery of grinding poverty to a very large number of the people. The rich must give of their abundance, they must soften their hearts and cultivate a compassionate intelligence, taking thought for those sad ones who are suffering from lack of the very necessities of life.

"There must be special laws made, dealing with these extremes of riches and of want. The members of the Government should consider the laws of God when they are framing plans for the ruling of the people. The general rights of mankind must be guarded and preserved.


"The government of the countries should conform to the Divine Law which gives equal justice to all. This is the only way in which the deplorable superfluity of great wealth and miserable, demoralizing, degrading poverty can be abolished. Not until this is done will the Law of God be obeyed."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 152
Click to expand...
A bit idealistic, but even more ideal is people caring not out of legal force but out of awareness that we are interdependent & spiritually, when we contribute to others' suffering, we suffer or will suffer.

Poverty has many & varied causes, but often it is because of foreign bullying... foreign debt (inflated/corrupt) & foreign governments/companies helping themeselves to poor country resources...

John Perkins in, "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" explains how he was hired to take advantage of poor countries, but finally, his conscience required him to stop and to expose it for what it is...
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man - YouTube
 
Radarmark,
True that generally we've advanced so that we "can" live longer.
The tragedy is that many are denied the blessings of these advances.

Sam,
We MUST believe and work toward solutions - not throw up our hands & say "it's impossible."
It IS possible - but things need to change.
We need to stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves.
Some of us can give some, some can't afford much - we just do what we can & what & how we feel inspired to, after studying it out. It's important to research the problems, to understand the "unique diagnosis" & "treatment" to a particular area's poverty.

I have started giving my "tithing" to those in need & stopped giving it to my LDS church, who hides finances & robs from the poor.
Deut 14:28-29 (which many religious supposedly include as doctrine) states that 1/3 of tithes are to be given to those in need. My religious leaders openly stated it's not their responsibility to care for those in need, but members should pay extra beyond the 10% of their "gross income." This is wrong & I'm trying to let other Mormons understand this, to hopefully direct their tithes (at least 1/3) to those in need, instead of corrupt business men, disguised as prophets. This is what I've felt inspired to do to help, since I can only give so much in money, time etc. In caring for the many in need, "many hands make light work" - & isn't that what religion (legion=many) is supposed to be about?
 
Joedjr said:
Some kind of world sharing of natural resources, perhaps. One's birth shouldn't be the sentencing of whether you live in wealth or poverty or somewhere in between. A birth gift of sorts to get started properly.
Maybe some kind of reseting back to 0 at the end of each generation, with any extra going into a pool for the next generation born. This would include no permanent ownership of any natural resources, so it would be an open opportunity for each next generation. I'm thinking this should be done on a world wide basis.
Click to expand...

Foreign debt cancellation has helped & is obviously so needed, but often met with opposition.
 
bhaktajan said:
It takes a village to raise a child ---but it isn't of primary concern.
The primary concern paying for commodities of "inflated" pricing.


The basis for a utopia ---vs a credo of 'survival-of-the-fittest' --the basis starts with child welfare.
But children are trained to "work the force".

The cost of foods increases inversly to the rise in techno-aided farming techniques ---ever the more, more ironic too, to think of the GMO "snake-oil as the status quo".

Only after the offence of selling a generation on a product ---does it become recognised as anti-progress.

Kudos to Germany for closing down the nuclear Plants in a yeras time. As I heard a Regular german say, "The goverment knows that can control the forces of Nuclear accidents"

I borrowed joedjr's statement:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/international-baby-party-12769.html#post266973
Click to expand...

What do you mean about nuclear plants?
Would you expand on this?

It seems that inflated prices (which tend to be set by developed nations) significantly affect poverty.
Corruption also - either locally or foreign, among other...

Causes of World Poverty:
1. Natural Disasters - wipe out crops, businesses, etc.
2. Debt - most LEDC's- "Lease Economically Developed Country" - have to borrow $ from & pay interest to banks of developed countries to begin their own development.
3. War - also wipes out crops, businesses etc.
4. Unfair trade - which is dominated by rich countries
5. HIV/AIDS
6. Lack of Education
The Causes of World Poverty - YouTube
 
Persona said:
To me, the most spiritual expression is that of compassion for another human being, realizing that as part of the human race, we share in characteristics and potentials.

Never before in history, has there ever been so many suffering from EXTREME poverty. Almost 1,000,000,000 men, women & children are starving - tens of thousands die every day from preventable causes.
2012 World Hunger and Poverty Facts and Statistics by World Hunger Education Service
I'm not referring to basic poverty, but the extreme poverty which too often leads to death from preventable causes, simply because of a lack of resources.

Some throw up their hands & say, "What can we do about corruption... or laziness...?" While I acknowledge corruption, I also acknowledge my role in it, in consuming products exploited from poor countries. I know blame won't solve anything, but it is helpful to understand the cause before any solution can be effectively implemented.
The causes of poverty are varied, but generally, some reasons often are unfair trade agreements, inflated & high interest loans to "developed countries" & corruption, war, natural disasters, AIDs/Malaria & other diseases, & lack of Education.

It is difficult to understand without getting involved. All sources cannot help but be biased, so research & literature alone, are not enough to gain a clear understanding of poverty. Yet, I do think that it is important to examine our beliefs about poverty - causes & potential solutions.

So what do you think are possible causes of & solutions to poverty?
Click to expand...

Earth is a School of Ascension -
it will ALWAYS be a place where our uncontrolled desires return to bite us on the butt.....
It will ALWAYS be a place where souls come to learn to manage energy in a subtle way...
It will ALWAYS be a place where souls incarnate to understand that we are CREATORS - and Creating must be done FULLY AWARE or unforeseen consequences will be the result...

apple is an apple - and a pear is a pear

This is a School of Ascension - where we are preparing for Greater Responsibility by acquiring EXPERIENCE.

difficulty is our catalyst...
 
If I can only afford to have one child I do not spit out 7-8 . . . a little forethought and intelligence goes a long way.
 
BrotherMichaelSky said:
Earth is a School of Ascension -
it will ALWAYS be a place where our uncontrolled desires return to bite us on the butt.....
It will ALWAYS be a place where souls come to learn to manage energy in a subtle way...
It will ALWAYS be a place where souls incarnate to understand that we are CREATORS - and Creating must be done FULLY AWARE or unforeseen consequences will be the result...

apple is an apple - and a pear is a pear

This is a School of Ascension - where we are preparing for Greater Responsibility by acquiring EXPERIENCE.

difficulty is our catalyst...
Click to expand...

I like how you put this, Brother Michael.
When we're children (& teens), we often act without considering consequences of our actions. But as adults, we need to "put of childishness" & consider that for everything we do or don't do, there are consequences.

I guess Karma (or the Christian idea that "he who lives by the sword will die by the sword)... can be a tough but effective teacher!
 
Etu Malku said:
If I can only afford to have one child I do not spit out 7-8 . . . a little forethought and intelligence goes a long way.
Click to expand...
I agree EtuMalku.
And "afford" doesn't just mean one's financial wealth, but also one's emotional, physical & intellectual wealth also.

I don't believe in abortion (except in rare health dangers), but I do believe in responsible birth control methods & educating people about sexual responsibility. I also believe it's important to help people realize the enormous responsibility involved in raising a child.
 
Persona said:
I like how you put this, Brother Michael.
When we're children (& teens), we often act without considering consequences of our actions. But as adults, we need to "put of childishness" & consider that for everything we do or don't do, there are consequences.

I guess Karma (or the Christian idea that "he who lives by the sword will die by the sword)... can be a tough but effective teacher!
Click to expand...

LOL - appointed by the only one who we can trust to get it right....
Thank you - i generally feel very clumsy in my attempts...
 
BrotherMichaelSky said:
LOL - appointed by the only one who we can trust to get it right....
Thank you - i generally feel very clumsy in my attempts...
Click to expand...

I don't think you were clumsy at all.
You reminded me that there is peace to be found & I appreciate it.
Lately, I've been so upset about poverty & even more so about the aparent apathy expressed by most I've discussed this with. I guess I'm even upset with my own apathy. I imagine the pain & suffering & haven't been able to feel peace... it's like I feel their pain & need to do something about it, so I can feel better. I think this is compassionate, but taken to the extreme, it's counterproductive. I've lost sleep & have been extra stressed & not at peace, so thereby I've made myself less helpful.

It's a balance in caring for ourselves as others.
And you remind me that we are in stages of learning... & truth is what it is. I can't change the past that has led up to culminate in the present. I have to learn to have the "serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can & wisdom to know the difference."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top