Esoteric Christianity revisited

[Thomas]

In other words ...

That's a very exoteric reading.

An esoteric reading would be that the very terms 'esoteric' and 'exoteric' apply to two ways of reading, or two modes of comprehending, the same data.

So you have a triangle, with esoteric and exoteric on its base, and the source data, in this instance Divine Revelation, at its apex.

Now in whatever form this Revelation is disclosed, it must be in such a manner that the soul to whom it is disclosed, and who is not of the same nature as the discloser, can comprehend it. Revelation must contain not only what is revealed, but how what is revealed is to be understood. Without this latter aspect, the revelation could not be meaningfully comprehended as such at all. A revelation by its nature illuminates, it does not obscure.

So the Sacra Doctrina of all the great Traditions contain their core data, and their concordant hermeneutic, which shapes its Scripture and its Tradition, its Rites and its Mysteries. So it is in all the Great Traditions.

Your claim is that they all stand in a subsequent relation to a set of universal esoteric principles, without which, they are in effect incomplete and limited in their possibility.

Yet those very texts refute you. The Mahabharatarefutes you. The Abrahamic Texts refute you ... and yet your argument insists on precisely the opposite of what the texts themselves say.

So while you offer commentaries on the meanings of the Sacra Doctrina of the world, followers of those traditions see nothing more than a litany of misunderstanding, misconceptions and presumptions — and in some telling instances, fictions — invented to bend the meaning of the text to suit your own imposed schemata, that seeks to erect barriers between man and God.

So back to the point.

If the rending of the veil of the temple does not signify the union of exoteric and esoteric ... what does it signify?

... and I dine graciously and gratefully on the former, knowing such nourishment to be the Prisca Sapientia, Prisca Theologica, Perennial Philosophy or Theosophy, aka Ageless Wisdom.

Not really. The Perennial Philosophy regards Theosophy in its current incarnation as a pseudo-religion — check out Guénon's critique "Theosophy — History of a pseudo-Religion"

Many readers of Gunon's later doctrinal works have longed to hear the tale of his earlier entanglement, and disentanglement, from the luxuriant undergrowth of so-called esoteric societies in late nineteenth-century Paris and elsewhere. The present work documents in excoriating detail Gunon's findings on what did, and did not, lie behind the Theosophical Society founded by Madame Blavatsky and Colonel Olcott in 1875. Much further information has of course come to light during the 80 years since this book was written, but it has never been superseded as a fascinating record of the path of a master metaphysician through this maze. A sampling of chapter titles will convey a sense of the depth of this remarkable work: 'Madame Blavatsky's Antecedents', 'The Theosophical Society and Rosicrucianism', 'The Question of the Mahatmas', 'The Society for Psychical Research', 'Esoteric Buddhism', 'Esoteric Christianity', 'The Future Messiah', 'The Trials of Alcyone', 'The Anthroposophy of Rudolf Steiner', 'The Order of the Star of the East', 'Theosophy and Freemasonry', 'The Political Role of the Theosophical Society'. A particularly unusual feature is its extensive treatment of the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor, which has recently attracted the attention of scholars of the occult. The Collected Works of Ren Gunon brings together the writings of one of the greatest prophets of our time, whose voice is even more important today than when he was alive. (Huston Smith, another noted Perennialist)

God bless,

Thomas

 

[taijasi]

"A sensible person accepts correction, but you can't beat sense into a fool." ~Proberbs 17:10
​

Thomas, you will fool no one here who already understands these matters - as Ozzy is pointing out above (in my previous post) - with sophistry, casuistry and a clever straw-man attempt.

The bottom line is, you simply do not speak God's language. For those who do, it is easy to see where the commonalities are between ourselves and the Divine. They transcend this thing you love, which I am not afraid to call MIND.

You need straight knowledge. You need to go STRAIGHT to the SOURCE (sic).

When you have done this - and at once when you have done this - you will see, and understand, the totality of what I have (EVER) said, it will be your personal mind which is (has been, finally) ILLUMINATED ...

... and even though it will be the remainder of this, your present lifetime which is spent seeking "further illumination," the experience will have already changed you - for the better - and NOTHING (nothing under Heaven) and no one will be able to take this away from you.

This is why, no matter what you say, no matter how you try ... you cannot best or trump my own, present Understanding (Intuitive, Illuminated and ETERNAL, or at least conditionally so) ~ for this is precisely what has occurred in my case.

The Divine has communicated a part of its (His, Her, Their) Revelation, and I have met such by being successful in rising above the personal, limited MIND, and I have been able to grasp a measure of the Revelation, meaning that I have brought just so much of that Revelation into my tangible, flesh-and-blood BRAIN, via the concrete, mortal mind.

Both of the latter may as yet prove limiting factors in my case, as in most, yet the experience itself is one which is utterly simple ... and productive of Understanding, which is the same, leading not to simple-mindedness, though in the best of cases, a simplicity of approach - which is not identical to the mistaken and totally unfounded belief that "all things are utterly simple," or that God is a mere simpleton.

Your total miscontrual of Christ's own esotericism (whatever you may wish to call it) is evidence unto itself that you apparently have some totally unfounded ideas regarding the VEIL of which you speak at length ... and your attempts to confuse and wow us with triangles and fifty-cent verbiage only succeeds in muddling your own mind ...

... as I know exactly what it means to say that Christ, the Buddha, Sri Krishna, and all other Great Ones have taught both an esoteric philosophy, and an exoteric doctrine, this latter suitable for the laity, while the former is *ALWAYS* intended only for the Initiated.

You may continue to try and dumb down the Inner, Core Doctrines of the Christ, and even when you mindlessly repeat things along the lines of "Christ taught us all to LOVE one another," I know good and well that you really don't accept this notion AT ALL ... for your Church neither practices this, nor does she even PREACH IT anymore (if ever she did), with her Vicarious Atonement, Sale of Indulgences and endless fabrications of divisive dogmas, each more damning and separative than the last, and each perfectly indicative of the real forces that grip vast numbers of her clergy and laity alike: fear, superstition and vanity.

Meanwhile, those who teach that an Inner Doctrine exists, being God's own Wisdom, also UNIVERSALLY ADVOCATE for a Universal DEITY, ever-present, Immanent as well as Transcendent, Itself the support of the entire manifested Cosmos, as well as its Ultimate Destiny both teleologically and temporally-materially ... whereby ALL SOULS - and not just those whom we arbitrarily choose shall attain to their Liberation.

We provide a MEANING for the apparent madness, a justification for all suffering and APPEARANCE of injustice ... we show the very METHOD whereby the Almighty attains to His High, Holy Purpose, and we demonstrate that EVERY SOUL in manifestation - Human, Angelic, animal, vegetable and mineral (not to mention others of which we know so little at this point) - has its proper place in the scheme of things.

We demonstrate an unending Great Chain of Being, which is one and the same as Jacob's Ladder, we show that entities are constantly ascending and descending this `ladder' during any given phase of Cosmic, Solar, Planetary or lesser manifestation ... and we show you the effects that this has within a given Kingdom of Life, as well as upon all other Kingdoms closely associated.

We define and discuss the various participants within the Mysteries, whether this be within the Human and Angelic Kingdoms, or within those Kingdoms immediately above or below these two. We show you that the fixed rigidity of life is an illusion only, for ALL LIFE EVOLVES, the Spirit using the form, via the Principle which we call SOUL, itself the Consciousness within the form, and also the vehicle for SPIRIT.

We prove that LIFE is the TRANSCENDENT REALITY which Synthesizes the Trinity of Spirit, Soul and body, resolving all apparent dualities and bringing back to the FATHER ALL which Deity has sent forth.

Meanwhile, you burn and punish the greatest portion of beings in an endless series of FALSE HELLS and fabricated purgatories ... because your dogmatism has long ago lost the Key to the Mysteries, and can no longer show that Rebirth is the only Just system whereby the evolving entity within and behind the form is given a set of vehicles to contact the external world, learn from experiences, and increasingly consciously APPLY lessons learned in the Great experiment of SERVICE, Brother unto Brother.

You can quote passage after passage, telling us all about what Guenon or your other pet philosophers taught ... yet you do not even know WHY - even WHY - this latter THEOSOPHIST and Mystic was moved to teach and serve as he did. And it is because you are BLINDED by words, by ideas and apparently quite ignorant of the underlying Realities, the raison d'etre of God's Kingdoms, God's worlds, the BEAUTY which results in God's People(s), and which some of us are committed to helping evoke and reveal within the heart of ALL FORMS.

I am not embarrassed or ashamed to call you `Brother,' yet I am tired of the wasted effort. The quote from Proverbs is quite appropo.

I am done with this wasted breath, wasted time, wasted type and wasted rhyme.

Keep bashing us over the head with your dogmatic assertions. I will stop reading them. I realize I tax others with my own verbosity.

Let us see, if *I* can reel this in, and say more with less, if YOU can learn to be honest, to CONFESS ... what great IGNORANCE actually rules within that brain, that mind of yours, or if - with dying breath - your lower nature will run its course.

TO ARMS!

{And for the record, "Not really" may be short & sweet, compared with my excess verbiage, but it refutes nothing. It kind of shows that 99% of the Divine Wisdom is lost on you. That, I must admit, does kind of sadden me. Oh well, you're just one more day/to do the things you should've done!}

 

[taijasi]

A good read for anyone checking this thread would be pp.261-265 (up to the 266 tag) of this document.

The focus is on the priesthood, priestcraft, plus the teachings of ancient India & Egypt, as these descend from, relate to and contrast with that of Atlantis ... and that of today in every religion. The reasons for necessity of preserving a *veil* - or distinction between esoteric & exoteric instruction - is explained (as, for example, in Matthew 7:6).

A mind free of prejudices will gain insight and understanding in reading the above selection, and a Heart ready to serve the Christ will be drawn closer thereto, if a genuine approach (in this perusal, as in all else) is made.

Anything less, and I fear - as with Thomas - that the Jesuits may already have won the day, and had their say.

~Namaskar

 

[Thomas]

Thomas, you will fool no one here ...

Nor will you, chum. Stop playing to the gallery ... and answer the question.

Your total miscontrual of Christ's own esotericism ...

OK. Construe it for me, please.

The rest of your post is smoke and bluster, showmanship and no substance. Your usual straw-man jibes at me and my religion (please do as you would be done by, btw), and claims to near divine status, whilst steadfastly failing to even try and understand what I'm saying.

Let us see, if *I* can reel this in, and say more with less...

Yes, do try ... the question is "what is the significance of the rending of the veil of the temple"?

God bless

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

A good read for anyone checking this thread would be pp.261-265 (up to the 266 tag) of this document.

OK. Read it — it says nothing about the rending of the veil, it makes a lot of comparisons, without really ascertaining whether the relation is real or imaginary, and not a few assumptions ... but that's the beside the point.

It's all cosmology. The veil of the temple was decorated with a complete cosmology, we know that from Josephus, and it was torn from the very top to the very bottom ... so what does that say to you about cosmologies?

Have another go ... try and say more, but try and actually address the question, not simply broadcast theosophical tracts at people.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[taijasi]

No, Thomas, you lose. Yours is the effort to befuddle and baffle us with smoke and mirrors, for it is you who veil ... nothing. Proud of touting the tautology that the Truth is hidden in plain sight, you can say nothing further about the matter - either from personal experience, or from direct Intuition. Granted, you have had an insight along the way, but that is where the search has left you.

For many years I have paraphrased, rephrased and often enough offered my OWN interpretations of the Ageless Wisdom. There is little I can say, however, which might express more clearly the point - that there IS a veiled, Divine Wisdom ... both in the custodianship of Adepts, and carefully preserved thereby for Divine Purpose.

Now, what can YOU tell us about either, aside from repeating your proposition that the esoteric and the exoteric are one?

Nothing ... because your premise is unfounded. You do not grasp that there will EVER be both an exoteric and an esoteric, the former the vehicle for the latter. Matter and Spirit are ONE, yet this does not mean that you are Master over either. In denying Masters, you reject the idea, possibility and goal of self-Mastery. In confounding (or improperly unraveling) the Mystery of Identity (which High Mystery cannot fully be grasped until the Ascension Initiation which Christ typified for us), you display all the typical training of a Jesuit .... parry, thrust, block, jab, etc. etc.

Indeed, it is YOU who are all about the form, quite skilled in a certain art ... but utterly without SUBSTANCE.

You tell us that SUBSTANCE is in fact, the SAME AS FORM, but you fail to make the obvious connection with PRACTICALITY ... which even *I* have managed to make, and that is the Wisdom of the East, brought (into the common, modern frame of reference and world) by the Buddha.

The Hem of the Garment is not accessible, or open for approach to Catholics, or Christians alone, and one day you will realize that you are fighting a losing battle, on the losing side, even if there is much that could be said about your admirable effort ... or your choice, often enough, to take the moral highground. I shall make every effort to commend you for THAT, and not to forget it, as I just don't have the heart to keep ... banging my head ~ on this, or others of your threads. It just isn't my cup of meat.

Since you missed the point, and incorrectly reported that my reading suggestion did not address the issue of the VEIL, or else really just prove that you have absolutely NO insight into these matters (and that, as I have long suspected, I have often given you far more credit than you deserve), I will quote from pg. 261 of The Secret Doctrine, Vol. 3, which DOES address the question of Initiation, Mysteries and the VEIL.

Don't expect to be Spoon-fed every single tasty morsel of meat, old chum. That isn't how the Apostle taught his flock, nor how Christ spoke to the Twelve ... but rather, only the ignorant masses.

I realize that you often identify with, and advocate for the latter, quite literally and in more ways than one ... yet it is *I* who have often enough suggested to you that the Christ dwells within every human heart, ALREADY, in latent state. If the rending of the veil signifies that Christ Jesus illustrated for us in modern times - this innate LOVE potential (`Love-Wisdom,' in some translations) ... just as the Buddha earlier illustrated what Wisdom/Compassion each man is capable of developing ... then perhaps we are in agreement on this question, after all.

Otherwise, try again to follow the words of one who was Initiated into the Mysteries, and charged (BY the Adepts, Who serve the Christ) with bringing these Ancient, Ageless and Liberating Mysteries again into public reach, before the eyes of the Aspirant, that they might aid him in the Alchemy of his Heart-Work ...

Growth of Popular Beliefs -
​

(Page 261) Selfishness was born out of desires and passions hitherto unknown, and but too often knowledge and power were abused, until finally it became necessary to limit the number of those who knew. Thus arose Initiation.

Every separate nation now arranged for itself a religious system, according to its enlightenment and spiritual wants. Worship of mere form being discarded by the wise men, these confined true knowledge to the very few. The need of veiling truth to protect it from desecration becoming more apparent with every generation, a thin veil was used at first, which had to be gradually thickened according to the spread of personality and selfishness, and this led to the Mysteries. They came to be established in every country and among every people, while to avoid strife and misunderstanding exoteric beliefs were allowed to grow up in the minds of the profane masses. Inoffensive and innocent in their incipient stage—like a historical event arranged in the form of a fairy tale, adapted for and comprehensible to the childs mind—in those distant ages such beliefs could be allowed to grow and make the popular faith without any danger to the more philosophical and abstruse truths taught in the sanctuaries. Logical and scientific observation of the phenomena in Nature, which alone leads man to the knowledge of eternal truths—provided he approaches the threshold of observation unbiassed by preconception and sees with his spiritual eye before he looks at things from their physical aspect—oes not lie within the province of the masses. The marvels of the One Spirit of Truth, the ever-concealed and inaccessible Deity, can be unravelled and assimilated only through Its manifestations by the secondary “Gods,” Its acting powers. While the One and Universal Cause has to remain for ever in abscondito, Its manifold action may be traced through the effects in Nature. The latter alone being comprehensible and manifest to average mankind, the Powers causing those effects were allowed to grow in the imagination of the populace. Ages later in the Fifth, the Aryan, Race some unscrupulous priests began to take advantage of the too easy beliefs of the people in every country, and finally raised those secondary Powers to the rank of God and Gods, thus succeeding in isolating them altogether from the One Universal Cause of all causes. (Page 262) Henceforward the knowledge of the primeval truths remained entirely in the hands of the Initiates.​

Do pay attention, Thomas, to this very last line.

The penultimate line you may vehemently deny, argue or agree with, yet this changes things not one whit. It stands as the summary of the sordid history of modern exoteric religion(s) as succinctly & accurately as I have ever seen it put.


I will leave you with one final fragment of Theosophical Wisdom, for that is precisely what you need (at times). It comes from May 22 of Gifts of the Lotus: A Book of Daily Meditations:

Use your will power, and may the benediction of Truth,

and the Divine Presence of Him the Inscrutable
be upon thee and help thee to open thy intuition.​

Namaskar - Om Tat Sat ​

 

[taijasi]

If you prefer a short & sweet, direct answer to this problem, take this:

Christ cannot rend the veil FOR you; it is YOU, the man, who must approach the Soul, St. Paul's "Christ within" (chrestos, before we become Christos).

The Soul, at times, will meet us halfway, at other times 75%, other times, 99.9% ... as we learn to walk the Way.

_________________________
Extended commentary follows:

Vicarious atonement, if rendered AT-ONE-MENT, has a true meaning.
Else, it is a vicious, pernicious LIE.

Would a man face Truth in this world, that he may better be prepared for the next ... even profitting much IN this world as he makes his way?

Or will he bank his talents on the lip service of hypocrites and the ignorant, idly uttering professions of faith, only to live the rest of life (Monday through Saturday) entirely as they please?

This is entirely relevant to the question of rending the veil, for until we can face ourselves, the world around us, and those of similar spiritual calling vis-a-vis, it shall ever be a game of cloak and dagger, cat and mouse.

Christ must certainly want to be "found" ... yet who (are the ones who) are hiding?

Get it? If we aren't speaking of Nature's own, protective veils ... then let us confront directly the facts, and admit that we need protecting, from ourselves ... as well as from those who would immediately exploit us, were we to realize even a FRACTION of our true potential, or innate, Divine ability (once tapped and directed toward an end).

Be careful not to bite off more than YOU can chew, for it doesn't matter whether you THINK you're currently sopping up the milk of the Heavens, or biding your time as you chew your cud ... there is always a tougher meat, and there are ALWAYS Those who are ready to give you something more challenging to chew on.

PRIDE - as always - will bar your way, and mine, if we stand, toe to toe, pretenders to the Throne ... yet neither truly humble enough to approach it, even by a long shot.

I assure you, Brother of Mine, Him Who already sits thereon ... He plays for KEEPS (Think INCLUSIVITY) ... and he doesn't ~ oh, you know, screw around.

The Divine Play, nevertheless (LILA) ... brought all this into being ... and in the wink of an eye, it will surely pass out again.

Don't expect me to believe your tall tales about clouds and streets of gold, and sitting there bored to tears at the Old Man's table.

Reject Rebirth as long as you like. I suppose you will long have been an arhat, in that case ... and I will just be the same-old same-old ... for one thing I know for sure ... and that's that I have a Looooooooooooooooong Path ahead, 'for I "become a PILLAR in the TEMPLE, and go out no more."

Again, I Salute the Divinity within THEE!
As ever I shall, for it's the SAME w/in ...

 

[taijasi]

The significance of the rending of the veil of the temple was, and is, Christ's living example .... real-life demonstration .... that the Divine Potential dwells within each of us.

Jesus taught that by following HIS EXAMPLE, we might likewise approach the Lord Our God, the Father, Highest SPIRIT, which Native Americans both knew and Loved ... and with Whom they sought Communion ... long before Joshua was ever incarnated.

These, along with the peoples of every nation, in every time, were the Christians before Christ of St. Augustine ...

... as verily, the windows of the Lighted Way have been flung wide since the Father Himself first set foot upon our Sacred Planet, some 21 million years ago; just as His Undying, Sacrificial LOVE [the Prototype for us ALL] shall guide us until every "last weary pilgrim has found his way home."

The Divine Love-Wisdom does not discriminate; it is open and available to ALL.

NEVER let the enemies of Truth convince you otherwise.

 

[Sam Albion]

andew X says he ignores me, so he will pretend not see this, but I am writing it for the benefit of Thomas, predominately. I'd like to say... thanks, man. I thought I was the only one who could see through it, but obviously, I'm not. Halle-bloody-lujah.

 

[taijasi]

Oh I see you there, Francis, masquerading about.

Let me add the same sentiment that you just did:

Get stuffed!

By the way, you see that Light over there?
Yes, that's it little girl. Come a little closer.
Come right ahead. Step into the Light ...
(muah-ha-ha's excerpted for your benefit)

Tell me now; had any run-in's with the Jesuits lately?

Care to actually join the DISCUSSION regarding the Temple Veil?
Or was it strictly to come & do their bidding that you appeared?

Prove me a fool, sweetie. Siriusly now. SURPRISE US

 

[Sam Albion]

Tajasi/andrew X... whoever you are. I wondered how long it would be since the Leadbetter feud before you revealed your secret self...

Regardless...

...for your information, I've never had any run-ins with Jesuits. I might, in the future, of course, but not yet. I'm sorry if that screws up your onanistic fantasy, but, them's the breaks...

OMG!

Hang on!

I, I... CAN see the light!

The veil to the temple is rent!

And, look, the light, the light....

It shines forth from the hairy ass of the fat hag Blavatsky and her peadophile, Neo-Nazi friends, small, crusty flakes of ordure slowly settling upon my weary shoulders...

Is that what you want to hear, Tajasi?

Shucks, and to think you TS muppets actually call ME a troll!

 

[taijasi]

Oh very good comeback, Francis. Quite clever, quite clever.

 

[Servetus]

OMG!

Hang on!

I, I... CAN see the light!

The veil to the temple is rent!

And, look, the light, the light....

It shines forth from the hairy ass of the fat hag Blavatsky and her peadophile, Neo-Nazi friends, small, crusty flakes of ordure slowly settling upon my weary shoulders...

That, as some of us here in the Colonies say, was a rip (meaning hilarious)! From now on, I want to sit next to Sam Albion at Sunday School.


Serv

 

[taijasi]

Perhaps Joshua said it best:

"God is with us wherever we go."

The true Torch(+bearer) of Christianity.

Love as unselfish affection,
Love as detached concern,
Love as measured, often tangible expression
of Soulful Purpose to friend or foe

~+~
Abstract virtues must be sown and bear fruit
Or the cake remains a lie

now, sometimes when I let one rip out of my hairy ass ...
... or ... what was that, Francis?

Farts are farts, flowers are flowers, don't hand your demons to Powers
... and don't go around calling Saints tarts.

 

[Thomas]

If you prefer a short & sweet, direct answer to this problem, take this:
Christ cannot rend the veil FOR you; it is YOU, the man, who must approach the Soul, St. Paul's "Christ within" (chrestos, before we become Christos).

No, you're jumping the gun, and confusing your terms. Theosophy is confused about Christos and chrestos, making an unfounded and erroneous assumption, but Paul was under no such illusion.

You have to establish what the veil means in principle before you can discuss its operation in practice.

For Divine Union to be possible at all, the Principle of Union must exist within the Divine first, and must have existed in the Divine before the creation of the world, and then the question is how does one resolve the apparent dichotomy of the principle of Unity existing within the Deity who is One and Undifferentiated?

Answer: The Doctrine of the Trinity (the explanation of which is another 'Christian esoterism' which I will save for another day ... one step at a time. The Greeks had the concept in principle with the idea of henad and monad, by the way.)

This unity (but not union, and important distinction) existed in the Paradisical and Primordial state, but man fell.

In the Fall, the principle was shattered — not only unity with God, but unity between ourselves (Adam and Eve looked on each other and were ashamed), unity with nature, unity with everything ... the whole peinciple was compromised. (There is another esoterism that says that what we're discussing here is pre-embodied man ... but that's yet another esoterism we could discuss ...)

Vicarious atonement, if rendered AT-ONE-MENT, has a true meaning.

No, this kind of etymology has been demonstrated to be clearly false. That a term came into usage that, one day, centuries later, would take on a true meaning in what just so happens to be your native language ... give us a break! You're saying that in latin or Greek, French or Spanish, you'd never get the point? Nah ... think about it.

Would a man face Truth in this world...

You're playing to the gallery again. Cut the soap-box sophistry and get to the point.

Christ must certainly want to be "found" ... yet who (are the ones who) are hiding?

You do see that the only way you will recognise Christ is if He comes to you in the guise of an Adept, a Master, a whatever ... as you expect and insist? He would have to be a High Initiate of this, that or the other for you to even spare Him a second glance.

But if you met Him, and He was tired, hungry, poor, thirsty, sick ... you wouldn't give Him a second glance.

A salutary warning, old chum, and one upon reflection I take to heart, even if you won't.

+++

I most heartily affirm that Christ wants to be found — as the Moslems say, 'God is closer to you than your jugular vein', and the Sufis have God say, "I was a secret treasure, and I wanted to be found", and all those who have found God always say He was there, waiting, beckoning ... so a bit less of the 'bleedin obvious', and a bit more concentration on what the bleedin obvious is telling you.

Christ hides in plain sight ... so does the esoteric ... He's there, in your neighbour, He's there, in the Book of Nature, He's there, in the Book of Scripture.

Get it?

You still don't ... Christ is the veil!
"A new and living way which he hath dedicated for us through the veil, that is to say, his flesh" Hebrews 10:20.
"For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:4)

The rending of the veil signifies Christ re-establishing that original primoridlal unity in Himself

The atonement theory of 'recapitulation' originated with Irenaeus (125-202 AD) working from St Paul, who saw Christ as the new Adam (Romans, Corinthians), who systematically undoes what Adam did. Irenaeus is the first to draw comparisons between Eve and Mary, contrasting the faithlessness of the former with the faithfulness of the latter. In addition to reversing the wrongs done by Adam, Irenaeus thinks of Christ as "recapitulating" or "summing up" human life.

Recapitulation is from recapitulans, the Latin translation of anakephalaiosis, which means final repetition, summing up, drawing to conclusion. As a term in rhetoric, it refers to the end of a speech, when the speaker drives home the point with a summary of the strongest arguments."

In applying this notion to the life of Jesus, Irenaeus (who was not a philosopher, by the way) is not merely saying that Jesus "repeats" the history of man, but that He sums up the complete history in Himself (which is why the Fathers see it as 'the end times'). As the Logos of God, it is 'in Him, with Him, by Him' (the Liturgy of the Eucharist) that the whole divine economy is conceived and implemented.

If we aren't speaking of Nature's own, protective veils then let us confront directly the facts, and admit that we need protecting, from ourselves ... as well as from those who would immediately exploit us, were we to realize even a FRACTION of our true potential, or innate, Divine ability (once tapped and directed toward an end).

Sentimentality.

Andrew ... listen ... a hard truth is coming: Ye are not God. Deity is not inherently a part of created nature.

You are not the Absolute, you are not Infinite, not Perfect, not Omniscient, not Omnipotent.

But whenever God grants you a taste of the Divine Life, you say "Look at me!" and you lose it, in that instant that you try to possess it as your own, as something yours by right.

It's Adam's sin, all over again.

PRIDE - as always - will bar your way, and mine, if we stand, toe to toe, pretenders to the Throne

I suffer no such pretence, old chum, that's entirely your pretension, not mine.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

The significance of the rending of the veil of the temple was, and is, Christ's living example .... real-life demonstration .... that the Divine Potential dwells within each of us.

But that divine potential is Him, not you.

It's called Grace. Indwelling. Shekinah ...

The Divine Love-Wisdom does not discriminate; it is open and available to ALL.

NEVER let the enemies of Truth convince you otherwise.

So you can take your Secret Doctrines, your anonymous Adepts, your Absentee Masters, and your Initiations, and whatever other impediments you would place between man and God to keep man ignorant of the Love of He Who Is, and stuff it in your pipe, and smoke it!

You said it, now listen to what you said!



God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

This was a reply I should have posted before the others ...

... proud of touting the tautology that the Truth is hidden in plain sight...

Yes, absolutely, it's fundamental to understanding Christianity ...

Now, what can YOU tell us about either, aside from repeating your proposition that the esoteric and the exoteric are one?

OK, to tackle the root of your two points:

You see the esoteric and the exoteric from a fundamentally dualist perspective — the esoteric is Divine Wisdom, and the exoteric is not. More than this, the esoteric is a Divine Wisdom in the possession of an elite, and the exoteric is thereby reduced to the order of ethical humanism, to keep the proles occupied.

There is this, and there is that. They are quite separate and distinct, and ne'er the twain shall meet. That much is apparent from the texts you cite in support of this dualist position.

My understanding is founded on a non-dualist ontology.

I see the esoteric and the exoteric as deriving from the same ontological source — the Divine. So where you see duality, I see Trinity — the Divine at the apex, the esoteric being the Transcendent formless, and the exoteric being the Immanent formal. This is implicitly affirmed — again in plain sight — in Scripture and in Tradition:
"For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity:" Romans 1:20

And St Augustine: "Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession confessio. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One who is not subject to change?" (Sermon 241)

"The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material", can have its origin only in God." CCC 33

And our poets have expressed it so often, as in Blake's "Auguries of Innocence":
To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

For me the relationship between esoteric and exoteric is akin to the relationship between soul and body, spirit and flesh, soma and sarx, letter and spirit, essence and substance ... purusha and prakriti ...

So I see the exoteric as the form and formal embodiment and expression of the supraformal. I do not see the exoteric as pointing to a not-esoteric end, rather I see each expressing the one ontology, one origin, one source, and one end, each in its own way. Each can, and has, proiduced saints and sages down through the ages.

What I absolutely reject is the pseudo-intellectual esoteric elitism, and would draw their attention to the words of Christ:
"And said: Amen I say to you,
unless you be converted, and become as little children,
you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child,
he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven.
And he that shall receive one such little child in my name,
receiveth me."
Matthew 18:3-5

"Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples,
"These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."
They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?"
Jesus said to them,
"When you make the two into one,
and when you make the inner (esoteric) like the outer (exoteric)
and the outer (exoteric) like the inner (esoteric)
and the upper like the lower,
and when you make male and female into a single one,
so that the male will not be male nor the female be female ..."
Gospel of Thomas, Logion 22

On the second point, re Adeps ... then every tradition has its saints and sages, but they are not 'controllers' of our fate as yours seem to be for you. And again, ours are in plain sight, yours seem to find it necessary to hide ...

You do not grasp that there will EVER be both an exoteric and an esoteric...

Yes I do ... you do not grasp the two are one.

Matter and Spirit are ONE

But that is precisely what your doctrine denies.

yet this does not mean that you are Master over either.

My Master is Christ ... there is no other.

In denying Masters, you reject the idea, possibility and goal of self-Mastery.

It's just your masters I deny.

I will quote from pg. 261 of The Secret Doctrine, Vol. 3, which DOES address the question of Initiation, Mysteries and the VEIL.

OK. I must say one has to make huge allowances for the explicit and rather offensive elitism of the author, by the way. The condescending attitude is quite shocking, and the imperialist attitude to humanity and history is telling in itself ... but that's by-the-by.

Selfishness was born out of desires and passions hitherto unknown...

That's a bad start, unknown to whom? It's been known to the Abrahamic Tradition since time immemorial. It's there in Genesis if you know how to read it.

... and but too often knowledge and power were abused, until finally it became necessary to limit the number of those who knew. Thus arose Initiation.

Ah, always the excuse of those who seek power over others. Thus control of knowledge becomes the ultimate power, the ultimate form of social manipulation. This is just a mandate for the elite. They dangle the carrot that, one day, perhaps you, too, will be 'let into the secret' ... can't you see how corrosive and corruptive this is?

(You really should read Guénon ... he charts how HPB was drawn under the spell of a counter-initiatic brotherhood by just this process.)

... The need of veiling truth ... led to the Mysteries.

OK ... can agree with that ... so far as a general history of the development of traditions within cultural contexts. The veil appears in Exodus, after all.

... Inoffensive and ... like a historical event arranged in the form of a fairy tale ... adapted for and comprehensible to the childs mind ... such beliefs could be allowed to grow and make the popular faith without any danger to the more philosophical and abstruse truths taught in the sanctuaries.

This is so ignorant and offensive, it reeks of of the elitism of its era.

Logical and scientific observation of the phenomena in Nature, which alone leads man to the knowledge of eternal truths

If that alone leads to knowledge, then there's no need of 'initiation', is there?

— provided

Ah, knew there had to be a catch.

... he approaches the threshold of observation unbiassed by preconception and sees with his spiritual eye before he looks at things from their physical aspect —

That's rich. How does one know one has an 'unbiased eye'? When one agrees with the author, I presume, whose bias is the benchmark by which all others are judged?

does not lie within the province of the masses.

Elitism again. And bollocks, frankly.

I could list members of those 'masses' whose insights into the Nature of God are luminous, but then you will say, 'ah, but they are initiates', won't you?

The marvels of the One Spirit of Truth, the ever-concealed and inaccessible Deity, can be unravelled and assimilated only through Its manifestations by the secondary “Gods,” Its acting powers.

Here is evidence of a failure to comprehend the Absolute nature of the Immanent ... and it contradicts the above statement about the study of nature, cos now this is saying God is absent from nature ... so the text is confused and inconsistent in its argument.

That God is beyond all forms is a given ... That's why there is an apophatic and a cataphatic stream in theology, but to assume, as your author does, that the one is infinitely superior to the other, is an error.

While the One and Universal Cause has to remain for ever in abscondito,

Not in the case of Christianity — "he that seeth me seeth the Father also" John 14:9

Do pay attention, Thomas, to this very last line.

Henceforward the knowledge of the primeval truths remained entirely in the hands of the Initiates.

Until, some 2,000 years ago, on a hill outside Jerusalem (Golgotha, meaning the place of the skull, by the way) the Lamb of God was crucified, and died ...

Matthew 27:51
And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom

Mark 15:38
And the veil of the temple was rent in two, from the top to the bottom.

Luke 23:45
And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Note that Luke, addressing a largely Gentile audience, does not make as much of the event as Matthew and Mark, who were talking to Jews, who could not fail to miss the significance of the event. (Neither Paul nor the author of Hebrews missed it, either.)

And a Christian is an initiate, silly! That's what baptism is! How can you be so obtuse?

Christ, being the Logos of God, the Word made Flesh, is the principle and the archetype of Initiation!

Grief ... how many times do you need it spelt out to you?

As much as you affirm the veil, and I affirm it without hesitation (it is, after all, the archetype of the Symbol), you can only add weight to what Scripture says, that in Christ it has been torn assunder, from the very top to the very bottom.

Don't expect to be Spoon-fed every single tasty morsel of meat, old chum.

That's rich ...

... you do realise that your dogma of initiation is the common one, the 'milk' version, the version you'll find in every esoteric primer on every bookshelf in every New Age Bookshop, don't you? You do realise that initiation, as understood in Christian esoterism, is the meat of the matter, don't you?

That isn't how the Apostle taught his flock, nor how Christ spoke to the Twelve ... but rather, only the ignorant masses.

Hey, don't peddle that elitist 'ignorant masses' pseudo-spiritual fascist arse gravy to me, old chum, you might swallow it, I won't let it near my lips.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

... but I am writing it for the benefit of Thomas, predominately. I'd like to say... thanks, man.

Hi SA/FK — no, seriously, thank you.

Sometimes I sit here and think, is this going to change anything? Why am I wasting my bloody time?

Two reasons, I think. One is a certain pugilist tendency which I put down to my Gaelic heritage, but the other is that something I write might actually be of benefit to someone else ... I think I can say my whole return to Catholicism was triggered (it was always there, even though I had walked away) by one sentence written by a Tibetan Buddhist ... interestingly, in an essay on Christian esoterism, and specifically about the rending of the veil of the temple!

“Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.…And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.…” (Matt. 27:50, 61). This occurrence, which is attested by the three Synoptic Gospels, marks the end of Christ’s human ministry, in the ordinary sense of the word, since all that follows, from the Resurrection till his final Ascension, is of a miraculous order. Like all sacred events, the portent at the moment of Christ’s death on the cross can be regarded from both a historical and a symbolical angle, since the two views do not exclude one another; in the present case it is the symbolism of the occurrence that will chiefly be considered. (Marco Pallis — The Veil of the Temple: A Study of Christian Initiation)

God bless,

Thomas