None But One Can Serve Two Masters

[Ben Masada]

NONE BUT ONE CAN SERVE TWO MASTERS

Jesus once declared that no man can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and depise the other. (Mat. 6:24) Nonsense! Paul would have objected. I can prove that's possible to serve two masters. I mean, if he had been around to read that quote of Matthew.

Paul, throughout his life, would struggle with a "thorn in his flesh" which was described as a sinful condition that he just could not get rid of; A condition related to his carnal desires, according to Romans 7:14. When he understood how severely sinful his condition was, he revealed that the good in the Law meant death to him, according to Romans 7:13.

Some of us could naturally wonder why he did not repent and obey, according to Isaiah 1:18,19, so that his sins, from scarlet red, could become as white as snow. That's easy to say but quite a different matter for the one with a "thorn in his flesh" to carry out. Paul had lost his will, so to speak, as he would end up by following the whims of the sin that dwelt in him, as we have in Romans 7:17. It means that Paul, whereas against his will, was actually living according to his sinful condition. (Rom. 7:18-23)

"O wretched man that I am," he said; wretched because he had to fight a sinful condition that he just could not get rid of. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Rom. 7:24) That's death for his transgression of the Law, which had become death to him after he had become aware of the condemnation of his behaviour by the Law.

Now, with regards to Romans 7:25, we have the piece to the puzzle why none but one can serve two masters. Paul had found out that the only way to solve his problem was to serve two masters. Never mind what Jesus had said that none could. It was the only way to harmonize the Law with the "thorn in his flesh" which would make him too weak to escape the spider web. He would serve God's Law in his mind and sin in his flesh. He reasoned that if he could not eliminate the Law that condemned his sin, he would accommodate his sin in spite of the Law. And thus, Paul had proved an exception to the rule that none can serve two masters.

Now, what could have been Paul's "thorn in the flesh?" It happens that Paul had been brought up as a Hellenistic Jew. Hellenists had a very loose sense of morality as homosexuality was concerned. To be a homosexual or bysexual in the Greco-Roman world was as normal as the normal relation between men and women. At first, I thought that his "thorn in the flesh" could have been an epileptic condition; but since epilepsy is not a sin but a disease, most definitely, Paul was struggling with repressed homosexual feelings, if we consider his attitude towards women, as he would advice men to observe bachelorhood. "It is good for a man not to touch a woman. I would that all men were as I am. Therefore, to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them to remain as I am." (I Cor. 7:1,7,8)

Ben

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

One might consider an alternate understanding.
To reach outside of your box - here I am.

You mention Paul's environment in a very general way.
On top of that one must consider the method of transfer of Judaic Belief...

One must forget Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and a string of others to view Paul - and his turmoil, in such a simple light.
There was so much to consider with instituting this New Religion - and it was not being dumped on a bunch of morons..... There were entire schools of thought to be assimilated....
Schools of thought which were very well developed.

The defining moments of this transitional period will always be murky and cloudy, because the following centuries would see the Church building up her infallible face. Changing belief to more closely follow the Doctrine which was being created by the institution..

an in depth look into preconceived ideas does indeed give one an idea that Paul would have had a MUCH more COMPLEX belief, in actuality, that the glimpses we are left with...
and the answers must be found laying near the scene of the accident... ( the Catholic Church's history... )
For those who are unaware - Judaism does indeed have a history of esoteric texts...


Paul - IMO - was a true Essene. He was aware of the Truth behind what Jesus had come to deliver. The very truths that the Church was later to hide. The fact that a PERSONAL connection to our Creator exists within each of us.
Our choice is to follow the guidance of the Portion of Our Father which resides within us - or to follow the ego we have created for ourselves during this lifetime.
One cannot follow both - because one is effectively blinded and the other is unlimited.

diametrically opposed states.
One can choose to be of the flesh - dying over and over in a physical body - Dying the Death of the Flesh.
Or one can choose to awaken to their True Self - realize that one is a portion of The Father - and relinquish the reins to that which is infallible.... and never have to feel again, the Death of the Flesh. Mastery over The Flesh - Which is what He came to Prove is possible.
Karma is the Law behind the idea of being born a sinner..... changed to ensure the Church had a place in the process... when in fact no one can pay your jot and tittle....

 

[Ben Masada]

One might consider an alternate understanding.
To reach outside of your box - here I am.

You mention Paul's environment in a very general way.
On top of that one must consider the method of transfer of Judaic Belief...

One must forget Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and a string of others to view Paul - and his turmoil, in such a simple light.
There was so much to consider with instituting this New Religion - and it was not being dumped on a bunch of morons..... There were entire schools of thought to be assimilated....
Schools of thought which were very well developed.

The defining moments of this transitional period will always be murky and cloudy, because the following centuries would see the Church building up her infallible face. Changing belief to more closely follow the Doctrine which was being created by the institution..

an in depth look into preconceived ideas does indeed give one an idea that Paul would have had a MUCH more COMPLEX belief, in actuality, that the glimpses we are left with...
and the answers must be found laying near the scene of the accident... ( the Catholic Church's history... )
For those who are unaware - Judaism does indeed have a history of esoteric texts...


Paul - IMO - was a true Essene. He was aware of the Truth behind what Jesus had come to deliver. The very truths that the Church was later to hide. The fact that a PERSONAL connection to our Creator exists within each of us.
Our choice is to follow the guidance of the Portion of Our Father which resides within us - or to follow the ego we have created for ourselves during this lifetime.
One cannot follow both - because one is effectively blinded and the other is unlimited.

diametrically opposed states.
One can choose to be of the flesh - dying over and over in a physical body - Dying the Death of the Flesh.
Or one can choose to awaken to their True Self - realize that one is a portion of The Father - and relinquish the reins to that which is infallible.... and never have to feel again, the Death of the Flesh. Mastery over The Flesh - Which is what He came to Prove is possible.
Karma is the Law behind the idea of being born a sinner..... changed to ensure the Church had a place in the process... when in fact no one can pay your jot and tittle....

So, in your opinion, Paul was a true Essene. Hypothetically, I hope, due to his being a convicted bachelor; never married and would even promote bachelorhood. Not that bachelorhood was, generally, an Essene trace. According to Josephus, not all Essenes were of the kind to take the vow of chastity. But those who did, the reason was not of the Pauline kind who could not get rid of his thorn in the flesh.

Now, I am sorry but I can't agree with you that Paul's aim was to prove his mastery of the flesh. The opposite is rather true that he could not escape the mastery of the flesh. Hence his accommodation to the exception to the rule that one cannot serve two masters. That's the only way he found to prevent a tragic way out: To serve God's Law in his mind and the law of sin in his flesh.
Ben

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

So, in your opinion, Paul was a true Essene. Hypothetically, I hope, due to his being a convicted bachelor; never married and would even promote bachelorhood. Not that bachelorhood was, generally, an Essene trace. According to Josephus, not all Essenes were of the kind to take the vow of chastity. But those who did, the reason was not of the Pauline kind who could not get rid of his thorn in the flesh.

Now, I am sorry but I can't agree with you that Paul's aim was to prove his mastery of the flesh. The opposite is rather true that he could not escape the mastery of the flesh. Hence his accommodation to the exception to the rule that one cannot serve two masters. That's the only way he found to prevent a tragic way out: To serve God's Law in his mind and the law of sin in his flesh.
Ben

Essene - New Age Practitioner of his time.... would you prefer Gnostic?
The idea is actually very simple. It's Doctrine that makes the concept out to be difficult.
There is no benefit of avoiding all that life brings, when being here to experience it is the POINT.
Being UNDER FIRE, and making all the right choices....
Having the idea of why we are here firmly in mind, and allowing every opportunity be a display of Love and Trust for others who may be watching.

Following the Way shown by our Big Brother, Jesus

Paul would never have advised wallowing in one's ignorance - I see your interpretation as dangerous at best, and obfuscating in it's intention.

Do you have any idea what the prevailing beliefs of the times were on the Nature of the Soul? You completely ignored the reference to my friend Plato.....

Christianity was an ill conceived series of errors in the mind of the Philosophers of the times - Men who would have been familiar to Paul....

I appreciate conversation - however, depending on what i am hearing - i value it accordingly....

Let me fill in some empty spots for ya.
The Apostle Paul 5AD - 67AD

Julius Caesar is deified by the senate - 42BC

Son of the Deified One - Octavian, who was to take the name Augustus - and took absolute power for himself, marking the beginning of the Imperial age of Rome 27BC

Then comes Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, doing their best to remake Rome in an Imperial Image, and avoiding going back to the republic. And two of them are as crazy as a cat on acid.....

Augustus died when Paul was but a young man - 14CE
Then comes the craziness.....

until the time of Paul's death - he will witness the most horrible treatment of Christians - culminating with Nero near the time of Paul's death...

and He will witness the lead up to the The First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), sometimes called The Great Revolt... and the Jews BEAT Rome in several battles, enough to thoroughly embarrass them...

Now - here is where I will leave the tale - because there is gold here for you...
Why on Earth would Paul have had to use the words he did, and shared the concepts that he shared?
Paul knew that he was walking a tightrope that could have Him AND the rest of the Jews and Christians all strung up and executed.... and there is only one way of dealing with such a threat - very, very carefully....

How did Rome ( as an imperial State ) gain control of Religion in the Empire?

They simply took it, because it was a thorn in their side for too long... and after you have murdered 1,100,000 folks at the Jewish fortress of Masada, and burnt Christians as torches in Nero's Colosseum he was building, there's VERY few folks who are going to ANYTHING but BE QUIET.....

While a NEW, useful Religion is created from that old pesky one, using a new offshoot which has become troublesome as well....

History makes sense of things.... there's a much larger picture to hold in ones mind if they really want to understand Truth - because the written word can be changed - but the Truth it represents,is eternal...

I stand by my interpretation... though I think yours is an interesting read....

( as an aside - where are the essenes now? )

 

[showme]

Essene - New Age Practitioner of his time.... would you prefer Gnostic?
The idea is actually very simple. It's Doctrine that makes the concept out to be difficult.
There is no benefit of avoiding all that life brings, when being here to experience it is the POINT.
Being UNDER FIRE, and making all the right choices....
Having the idea of why we are here firmly in mind, and allowing every opportunity be a display of Love and Trust for others who may be watching.

Following the Way shown by our Big Brother, Jesus

Paul would never have advised wallowing in one's ignorance - I see your interpretation as dangerous at best, and obfuscating in it's intention.

Do you have any idea what the prevailing beliefs of the times were on the Nature of the Soul? You completely ignored the reference to my friend Plato.....

Christianity was an ill conceived series of errors in the mind of the Philosophers of the times - Men who would have been familiar to Paul....

I appreciate conversation - however, depending on what i am hearing - i value it accordingly....

Let me fill in some empty spots for ya.
The Apostle Paul 5AD - 67AD

Julius Caesar is deified by the senate - 42BC

Son of the Deified One - Octavian, who was to take the name Augustus - and took absolute power for himself, marking the beginning of the Imperial age of Rome 27BC

Then comes Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, doing their best to remake Rome in an Imperial Image, and avoiding going back to the republic. And two of them are as crazy as a cat on acid.....

Augustus died when Paul was but a young man - 14CE
Then comes the craziness.....

until the time of Paul's death - he will witness the most horrible treatment of Christians - culminating with Nero near the time of Paul's death...

and He will witness the lead up to the The First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), sometimes called The Great Revolt... and the Jews BEAT Rome in several battles, enough to thoroughly embarrass them...

Now - here is where I will leave the tale - because there is gold here for you...
Why on Earth would Paul have had to use the words he did, and shared the concepts that he shared?
Paul knew that he was walking a tightrope that could have Him AND the rest of the Jews and Christians all strung up and executed.... and there is only one way of dealing with such a threat - very, very carefully....

How did Rome ( as an imperial State ) gain control of Religion in the Empire?

They simply took it, because it was a thorn in their side for too long... and after you have murdered 1,100,000 folks at the Jewish fortress of Masada, and burnt Christians as torches in Nero's Colosseum he was building, there's VERY few folks who are going to ANYTHING but BE QUIET.....

While a NEW, useful Religion is created from that old pesky one, using a new offshoot which has become troublesome as well....

History makes sense of things.... there's a much larger picture to hold in ones mind if they really want to understand Truth - because the written word can be changed - but the Truth it represents,is eternal...

I stand by my interpretation... though I think yours is an interesting read....

( as an aside - where are the essenes now? )

Your position falls flat on the claim that Paul was afraid of the Romans, for while in Jerusalem, he claimed his Roman citizenship, and called on 2 cohorts of Roman soldiers to get him away from most likely the Essenes, who had determined to but him to death.

It was the Roman church, built on the pillar of Paul, which had books burned, heretics tortured and burned alived, and it was instituted by the emperor Constantine, whose power came from the dragon (Rev 13:11), the same dragon that was the power behind Julius Caesar, the beast who had the fatal wound and was healed (Rev 13:3) and whose authority came from the dragon (Rev 13:2). The Roman emperors were all called Augustus Caesar, as in consecrated sons of god, as Julius Caesar was related to Apollo in the myth of his heritage. Apollo, being the sun god, the dragon, and Constantine was visited by Apollo at the Grotto of Apollo in Gaul, and was told to conquer the world in the sign of the gross, which was the image that Constantine had of Apollo.

Paul is simply described by Yeshua in Mt 7:15, as a false prophet, dressed in sheep's clothing, but who was a "ravenous wolf". For Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, and Benjamin's blessing from his father in Genesis 49:27, was that Benjamin would be as a "ravenous wolf". Paul's real name was Saul, but was changed to Paul, which means "least", because Yeshua stated that those who do not teach all of the Law will be called "least". Yeshua also said to those that "Practice Lawlessness", he will say, "I never knew you".

 

[Ben Masada]

While a NEW, useful Religion is created from that old pesky one, using a new offshoot which has become troublesome as well....

History makes sense of things.... there's a much larger picture to hold in ones mind if they really want to understand Truth - because the written word can be changed - but the Truth it represents,is eternal...

I stand by my interpretation... though I think yours is an interesting read....

( as an aside - where are the essenes now? )

Where are the Pharisees too, the Sadducees, the Zealots, and the Nazarenes? Time changes and so does History with it. What is the Truth? Jesus once said that the Truth is the Word of God. (John 17:17) That's the Word of God that the Psalmist said was entrusted to Israel only and to no other people on earth. (Psalm 147:19,20) Is it to wonder why Jeremiah said that Israel is to remain as a People before the Lord forever? (Jer. 31:35-37)
Ben

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

Your position falls flat on the claim that Paul was afraid of the Romans, for while in Jerusalem, he claimed his Roman citizenship, and called on 2 cohorts of Roman soldiers to get him away from most likely the Essenes, who had determined to but him to death.

It was the Roman church, built on the pillar of Paul, which had books burned, heretics tortured and burned alived, and it was instituted by the emperor Constantine, whose power came from the dragon (Rev 13:11), the same dragon that was the power behind Julius Caesar, the beast who had the fatal wound and was healed (Rev 13:3) and whose authority came from the dragon (Rev 13:2). The Roman emperors were all called Augustus Caesar, as in consecrated sons of god, as Julius Caesar was related to Apollo in the myth of his heritage. Apollo, being the sun god, the dragon, and Constantine was visited by Apollo at the Grotto of Apollo in Gaul, and was told to conquer the world in the sign of the gross, which was the image that Constantine had of Apollo.

Paul is simply described by Yeshua in Mt 7:15, as a false prophet, dressed in sheep's clothing, but who was a "ravenous wolf". For Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, and Benjamin's blessing from his father in Genesis 49:27, was that Benjamin would be as a "ravenous wolf". Paul's real name was Saul, but was changed to Paul, which means "least", because Yeshua stated that those who do not teach all of the Law will be called "least". Yeshua also said to those that "Practice Lawlessness", he will say, "I never knew you".

As far as I was aware, I left you with questions you could have looked for an answer to... you choose not to - that is fine...
but there are errors to what you are saying.....
for the first 200 years, basically - Christians were regarded as Jews....

it was the monotheism of Christianity that had them sharing the miseries of the Jews... They believed in salvation and an afterlife ( that diminished the hold of Earthly Masters ) and they were of a wide variety of practices..

the Census of Quirinius in AD 6 started things off... and the zealot crisis which started the Jewish-Roman war
Jews were "protected" at that time - their synagogues were called "colleges" so as to get around the rules against "secret societies"
They were "cooperating".......

Tiberius outlawed Judaism - but they came back.

Claudius outlawed Jews " Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus he [Claudius] expelled them from the city." Chrestus being another version of Christus... and they were expelled as one group - Jews and Christians... as this time signifies the arrival of the first true Christians...

Jews and Christians seem to have been treated as one group until 98AD

Pliny the Younger wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan describing his persecutions of Christians and was instructed not to persecute them unless they refuse to "RECANT" - Pliny was born in 61AD ( what were they Recanting? )

It wasn't just the Christians who were prosecuted - the Druids were outlawed in AD54.. as well as all the mystery cults of Christianity and Pagan Practice....

Julius Caesar was "Deified" he was not turned into a God.... He was permanently linked to the Roman concept of Victory.... there's a difference...
and Augustus simply followed suit - it was later that the whole concept was confused...

Suetonius tells us that during the reign of Nero that "punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition"
and in fact he blames the Christians for the fire he set that burnt Rome in 64AD...

Diocletian was the one who did the most to persecute Christians from 303-311
and due to his inability to get rid of them -
The edict of milan was given to provide a policy of tolerance...
Constantine I was the first Christian emperor...
but it was Theodosius I who made Christianity the official religion of the empire in 380...

which was the beginning, in a very short time, of the Dark Ages.... brought by, many feel, the turning away from illuminating wisdom and focusing on Doctrine that made little sense...

as it says in the wiki: By the 5th century Christian hegemony had rapidly changed the Empire's identity even as the Western provinces collapsed.[41] Those who practiced the traditional polytheistic religions were persecuted, as were Christians regarded as heretics by the authorities in power.

but you trust them to have handled all your texts with care, hmmmn?

There are whole pieces of the puzzle you appear to have never examined.... but you will continue to argue that you have the only right view - will you not?

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

mmmm hmmmnn.....

didn't get past the introductory points....

Didn't even get to mention Titus -
who reportedly refused the victory wreath after the Jewish-Roman War ( 66-73 )because he had simply - "lent his arms to God"
what did he mean?

Didn't talk about the Nicean Creed in detail...

So many points to make....

One cannot simply just start with Created Church Doctrine to determine some Grand Sweeping Meaning that is NOT supported or implied by historical usage - If you do, you are simply wandering in Fantasy....
Which was my point about Christians just mindlessly doing what their uneducated priests tell them.....
If you are not tracing the historical authenticity of the concepts you deal with every Sunday..... you are playing a ridiculous game, in my mind... and a pointless - distracting one... which serves a negative purpose...

 

[wil]

But Paul proved you can't serve two masters...his homosexuality tore at his faith. It bothered him deeply, hence all his writings on this. Of course he like many Christians today perceive homosexuality as a sin...and Paul was not punished for his sin, but by his belief that it was a sin.

Homophobia, like sexism, racism, and slavery before them, all supported by the church utilizing various quotes from the bible...will also go by the wayside as archaic thinking.

 

[taijasi]

Actually, in Mark 12:17 Jesus kind of eats his words. But of course, the world is full of apparent duality, and in an ideal world, even the distinction in the above passage disappears.

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

Where are the Pharisees too, the Sadducees, the Zealots, and the Nazarenes? Time changes and so does History with it. What is the Truth? Jesus once said that the Truth is the Word of God. (John 17:17) That's the Word of God that the Psalmist said was entrusted to Israel only and to no other people on earth. (Psalm 147:19,20) Is it to wonder why Jeremiah said that Israel is to remain as a People before the Lord forever? (Jer. 31:35-37)
Ben

there's my point....

There was this Faith, see...... and it was troublesome to the powers that be....
and it had become obvious that it wasn't going anywhere... couldn't be trampled underfoot - which was rather new and different....

How to use that for advantage?

Take from that faith, that which was so ingrained as to be hard to pull by the roots, and apply it in a subtly different way - which set it's meaning on it's head...

and you can slowly pull away from that Monotheism - with it's dangerous tenets and tenacious believers...

Christianity is not a religion which makes sense..... It was not designed to be - it was created to foster the sheeple principle... " You must be quiet and obey - for we stand between you and Your God "
Christianity was made impotent by the simple Doctrine of the Trinity - the common sense dropped out of the picture, and it became a "Faith Based" belief - Led by a divinely inspired Human....like a million other Pagan Sects before it....

However...... That does not mean, in my persistent opinion, that the Previous Message was meant for eternity.... That there would be no further messages coming...

A Message WAS delivered.....
But it was very tenaciously hunted down and erased - as well as man might...

The PROBLEM - as it is presented to the Religious Institution - is that it was not hidden away as well as the various institutions perceived...
Their intentions and desires held the Truth at arms length to them - as it still does to the majority today....

and again - HOWEVER - enough of the True Message remains to follow it into the Heart, where a connections is made which reveals the concept BEHIND the Message.... The Inspiration we are to find WITHIN the Message....

That's how inspiration works...
you feel it and you know it is right - you must simply look around to see how it applies..... you must SEEK - to be led into understanding.....

( Which perfectly illustrates why there is thousands of years of OBSERVATION recorded within the texts of Judaism....
They were determined to observe their God until they understood enough to start making judgement calls... )

That process was not to come to a stop.....
and it seems to have.....
everyone poring over ancient texts - desperately desiring enlightenment - when the Message was that Truth and Inspiration lie in the Human Heart... directly associated with the Connection which is there - which links us to Our Father....

When your impetus changes from bringing a message to the world - to holding what you have for yourselves - it is no wonder that the blindness starts creeping in.....
Our Example ( The Most Recent One we are all aware of, that is... ) shows that we must Give to Receive.... and that we must go Within to find the answers....

You ask why Essene? Because of the connotations that word carries.... it is understood by the majority what I was getting at....
Shall we discuss the Zohar?

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

Actually, in Mark 12:17 Jesus kind of eats his words. But of course, the world is full of apparent duality, and in an ideal world, even the distinction in the above passage disappears.

the examples go on and on.... it's the understanding which is lacking....
but is it full of duality..... or are there meant to ALWAYS be THREE mitigating factors...?

isn't that the ENTIRE point of what motivated Christianity?
That no matter what exchange you are witnessing - the is another Player which is slightly harder to see?

the combination of Male and Female RESULT in a third.... the Third is not apparent in the moment.... and that is a very important fact....

 

[showme]

As far as I was aware, I left you with questions you could have looked for an answer to... you choose not to - that is fine...
but there are errors to what you are saying.....
for the first 200 years, basically - Christians were regarded as Jews....

it was the monotheism of Christianity that had them sharing the miseries of the Jews... They believed in salvation and an afterlife ( that diminished the hold of Earthly Masters ) and they were of a wide variety of practices..

the Census of Quirinius in AD 6 started things off... and the zealot crisis which started the Jewish-Roman war
Jews were "protected" at that time - their synagogues were called "colleges" so as to get around the rules against "secret societies"
They were "cooperating".......

Tiberius outlawed Judaism - but they came back.

Claudius outlawed Jews " Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus he [Claudius] expelled them from the city." Chrestus being another version of Christus... and they were expelled as one group - Jews and Christians... as this time signifies the arrival of the first true Christians...

Jews and Christians seem to have been treated as one group until 98AD

Pliny the Younger wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan describing his persecutions of Christians and was instructed not to persecute them unless they refuse to "RECANT" - Pliny was born in 61AD ( what were they Recanting? )

It wasn't just the Christians who were prosecuted - the Druids were outlawed in AD54.. as well as all the mystery cults of Christianity and Pagan Practice....

Julius Caesar was "Deified" he was not turned into a God.... He was permanently linked to the Roman concept of Victory.... there's a difference...
and Augustus simply followed suit - it was later that the whole concept was confused...

Suetonius tells us that during the reign of Nero that "punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition"
and in fact he blames the Christians for the fire he set that burnt Rome in 64AD...

Diocletian was the one who did the most to persecute Christians from 303-311
and due to his inability to get rid of them -
The edict of milan was given to provide a policy of tolerance...
Constantine I was the first Christian emperor...
but it was Theodosius I who made Christianity the official religion of the empire in 380...

which was the beginning, in a very short time, of the Dark Ages.... brought by, many feel, the turning away from illuminating wisdom and focusing on Doctrine that made little sense...

as it says in the wiki: By the 5th century Christian hegemony had rapidly changed the Empire's identity even as the Western provinces collapsed.[41] Those who practiced the traditional polytheistic religions were persecuted, as were Christians regarded as heretics by the authorities in power.

but you trust them to have handled all your texts with care, hmmmn?

There are whole pieces of the puzzle you appear to have never examined.... but you will continue to argue that you have the only right view - will you not?

I think Yeshua said it quite correctly in Mt 11:25, "hide things from wise and reveal to babes". My arguement with you would be that you come across as having the only right point of view, while denigrating other points of view.

No one can willy nilly go from Roman city to Roman city, persecuting and stoning heretics, without a Roman warrant. Paul was a Roman citizen, who undoubtedly worked under a Roman warrant, and not only undermined the message of Yeshua, but tried to undermine the jewish faith. It was finally the faith of Paul that was the founding principle of the Roman church. The authority behind the heads of the beasts of Rev 13:2 was the dragon. The church of the beast with two horns like a lamb, whose authority was based upon the dragon, was the Roman church (Rev 13:11). Constantine was the beast with the two horns like a lamb, and he inititated the doctrines of the Roman church at his summer palace in Nicaea, in the year 325. For as Yeshua said in John 14:30, "the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in me". Constantine was the 7th head of the beast (Rev 17:9), and there is one head remaining, the 8th head, who was one of the seven.

Paul is simply the "ravenous wolf" in sheeps clothing, the false prophet of Mt 7:15-18. For the fruit of his church has proven to be rotten. If you think not, then look in your daily newspaper. If you do not have a daily newspaper, I would be glad to list links.

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

I think Yeshua said it quite correctly in Mt 11:25, "hide things from wise and reveal to babes". My arguement with you would be that you come across as having the only right point of view, while denigrating other points of view.

No one can willy nilly go from Roman city to Roman city, persecuting and stoning heretics, without a Roman warrant. Paul was a Roman citizen, who undoubtedly worked under a Roman warrant, and not only undermined the message of Yeshua, but tried to undermine the jewish faith. It was finally the faith of Paul that was the founding principle of the Roman church. The authority behind the heads of the beasts of Rev 13:2 was the dragon. The church of the beast with two horns like a lamb, whose authority was based upon the dragon, was the Roman church (Rev 13:11). Constantine was the beast with the two horns like a lamb, and he inititated the doctrines of the Roman church at his summer palace in Nicaea, in the year 325. For as Yeshua said in John 14:30, "the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in me". Constantine was the 7th head of the beast (Rev 17:9), and there is one head remaining, the 8th head, who was one of the seven.

Paul is simply the "ravenous wolf" in sheeps clothing, the false prophet of Mt 7:15-18. For the fruit of his church has proven to be rotten. If you think not, then look in your daily newspaper. If you do not have a daily newspaper, I would be glad to list links.

i followed that... sort of.... but i believe you are seeing what you would like to see in those quotes...

I am more willing to be kind to Paul.
An in-depth look into the society of- and the beliefs thereof - the world where Paul was operating, shows him to be trying to salvage all that could be saved of what he considered an very important message to the world.
It is the society which surrounded him which made his task limited in it's effectiveness...
I mean- yes,more of the truth could have remained - but the man DID guide a Pagan society to embrace writings which remain with us today....
He had an almost impossible task and had the fanatical devotion to get the job done - to the best of his ability....
Would I have had his strength and devotion when witnessing the hard cold facts of life in those times? I shudder to think....
I see, as well, where there are concepts that Paul was trying to share in his letters - which was not immediately apparent, given the Rules from the Crown....
I believe the man did what he could - and he is to be congratulated for getting as much accomplished as he did....

Your examples from revelation are confused, in my mind, as they are pointed too close to the scene - it needs to back out a little for a better aim....

and yes, Paul was a warrant carrying horror to Christians.... he admits as much...
But the change from ruthlessness to thoughtfulness was indeed an important moment.... and he did his best to make up for the damage he did.....
Forgiveness is inherent to the message he was exposed to... and tried to share..

am i trying to come off as superior? honestly that is what you think?
Which would be superior in your opinion - fabrication that FEELS right, or a simple glimpse at history?

I think the problem originates with the reader.... because I have no REASON to try to be SUPERIOR to random voices.....
If what I have discovered bothers you- perhaps ask why....
If it is my surety that annoys you - it is petty to hate the work ANOTHER has done...
( frequently one assumes there is no work to be done to receive Truth... and they feel the LACK of effort on their part plays no part in their discomfiture.... )

 

[Ben Masada]

But Paul proved you can't serve two masters...his homosexuality tore at his faith. It bothered him deeply, hence all his writings on this. Of course he like many Christians today perceive homosexuality as a sin...and Paul was not punished for his sin, but by his belief that it was a sin.

Homophobia, like sexism, racism, and slavery before them, all supported by the church utilizing various quotes from the bible...will also go by the wayside as archaic thinking.

Yes, but he proved that only he could serve two masters. Read Romans 7:25. He had come to that conclusion because he was persuaded that he could never get rid of the Law. Since he either could not get rid of his thorn in the flesh, he convened to serve both the Law in his mind and his sinful condition in his flesh. That, for lack of a better word, was mere hypocrisy. I am reminded of the famous religious saying: "Do as I say and not as I do, because I am also a sinner."
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

there's my point....


You ask why Essene? Because of the connotations that word carries.... it is understood by the majority what I was getting at....
Shall we discuss the Zohar?

The Zohar is, by definition, the Jewish exploration of Mysthicism. There is, therefore, nothing to be interpreted literally in the Zohar. The whole thing is composed in metaphorical language.
Ben

 

[showme]

i followed that... sort of.... but i believe you are seeing what you would like to see in those quotes...

I am more willing to be kind to Paul.
An in-depth look into the society of- and the beliefs thereof - the world where Paul was operating, shows him to be trying to salvage all that could be saved of what he considered an very important message to the world.
It is the society which surrounded him which made his task limited in it's effectiveness...
I mean- yes,more of the truth could have remained - but the man DID guide a Pagan society to embrace writings which remain with us today....
He had an almost impossible task and had the fanatical devotion to get the job done - to the best of his ability....
Would I have had his strength and devotion when witnessing the hard cold facts of life in those times? I shudder to think....
I see, as well, where there are concepts that Paul was trying to share in his letters - which was not immediately apparent, given the Rules from the Crown....
I believe the man did what he could - and he is to be congratulated for getting as much accomplished as he did....

Your examples from revelation are confused, in my mind, as they are pointed too close to the scene - it needs to back out a little for a better aim....

and yes, Paul was a warrant carrying horror to Christians.... he admits as much...
But the change from ruthlessness to thoughtfulness was indeed an important moment.... and he did his best to make up for the damage he did.....
Forgiveness is inherent to the message he was exposed to... and tried to share..

am i trying to come off as superior? honestly that is what you think?
Which would be superior in your opinion - fabrication that FEELS right, or a simple glimpse at history?

I think the problem originates with the reader.... because I have no REASON to try to be SUPERIOR to random voices.....
If what I have discovered bothers you- perhaps ask why....
If it is my surety that annoys you - it is petty to hate the work ANOTHER has done...
( frequently one assumes there is no work to be done to receive Truth... and they feel the LACK of effort on their part plays no part in their discomfiture.... )

You seem to portray that all problems come from everyone but yourself. Proverbs 16:18 comes to mind.

Don't get me wrong, history has a place, but quoting history without targeted correlation to the subject at hand comes across as posturing. You seem to fail to recognize that there is only one true Teacher, that being the Spirit of God. (Mt 23:8) (Jer 31:33-34)

As for your love of Paul, hey, I get that. As Revelation 13:14 points out, "those who dwell on the earth" will be deceived. Paul was one of the two horns like a lamb, which were to help deceive the world. Constantine built basilicas for the glory of both Peter and Paul. Peter being the false foundation of the church, and Paul for his false gospel of Grace.

 

[Ben Masada]

You seem to portray that all problems come from everyone but yourself. Proverbs 16:18 comes to mind.

Don't get me wrong, history has a place, but quoting history without targeted correlation to the subject at hand comes across as posturing. You seem to fail to recognize that there is only one true Teacher, that being the Spirit of God. (Mt 23:8) (Jer 31:33-34)

As for your love of Paul, hey, I get that. As Revelation 13:14 points out, "those who dwell on the earth" will be deceived. Paul was one of the two horns like a lamb, which were to help deceive the world. Constantine built basilicas for the glory of both Peter and Paul. Peter being the false foundation of the church, and Paul for his false gospel of Grace.

I don't believe Peter had ever anything to do with Christianity.The Church made him the first Pope in order to enhance the prestige of Christianity with apostolic creditation.
Ben

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

The Zohar is, by definition, the Jewish exploration of Mysthicism. There is, therefore, nothing to be interpreted literally in the Zohar. The whole thing is composed in metaphorical language.
Ben

what i was getting at was the evidence of mystery cults in the traditions of both Judaism and Christianity...
The evidence that this was a criticism of the Church even in it's early days...
That it was a recurring thing even in Judaism....

and that, Thank You, there are differing understandings of things which are couched in metaphorical language....

You will understand if I am used to hearing the very same "smack down" techniques from a thousand different places....
They do not hold water for me - therefore I will continue to share MY PARTICULAR understanding in the effort to harmonize with those who just may chime in....

in me you have a rational person, who is the subject of very interesting experience.... who just happens to have an extensive curiosity of ancient practice and belief..... I do not claim to have all the answers - far from it
what I DO have is the strength of belief which comes from personal experience... we could have stimulating discussion....

I'll stop being flip if you'll play nice, and stop being offended by my opinions - honestly, I mean no harm .... but i DO have a strange sense of humor - don't encourage me.....

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

You seem to portray that all problems come from everyone but yourself. Proverbs 16:18 comes to mind.

just goes to show you have judged me too early - and placed your OWN emphasis on my words - but your business, I gave them freely...

Don't get me wrong, history has a place, but quoting history without targeted correlation to the subject at hand comes across as posturing. You seem to fail to recognize that there is only one true Teacher, that being the Spirit of God. (Mt 23:8) (Jer 31:33-34)

The comprehensive nature of the understanding required to get an honest grasp of the situations dryly represented in the wikipedias is not conducive to display on a forum such as this......
feel free to ask questions if the is a hole I may fill in for you..... but that's kinda lazy wouldn't you say?
I did give you some pretty awesome keywords..... cutting to the heart of the matter....

As for your love of Paul, hey, I get that. As Revelation 13:14 points out, "those who dwell on the earth" will be deceived. Paul was one of the two horns like a lamb, which were to help deceive the world. Constantine built basilicas for the glory of both Peter and Paul. Peter being the false foundation of the church, and Paul for his false gospel of Grace.

veeeery interesting...... hey, y'all got popcorn here?