None But One Can Serve Two Masters

BrotherMichaelSky said:
what i was getting at was the evidence of mystery cults in the traditions of both Judaism and Christianity...
The evidence that this was a criticism of the Church even in it's early days...
That it was a recurring thing even in Judaism....

and that, Thank You, there are differing understandings of things which are couched in metaphorical language....

You will understand if I am used to hearing the very same "smack down" techniques from a thousand different places....
They do not hold water for me - therefore I will continue to share MY PARTICULAR understanding in the effort to harmonize with those who just may chime in....

in me you have a rational person, who is the subject of very interesting experience.... who just happens to have an extensive curiosity of ancient practice and belief..... I do not claim to have all the answers - far from it
what I DO have is the strength of belief which comes from personal experience... we could have stimulating discussion....

I'll stop being flip if you'll play nice, and stop being offended by my opinions - honestly, I mean no harm .... but i DO have a strange sense of humor - don't encourage me..... :)
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All right Brother, you can count on me. I did read the Zohar and I did not derive from that reading any suspiction of criticism of the Church and Christianism in general. Mere mysticism to be interepreted metaphorically.
Ben
 
Ben Masada said:
All right Brother, you can count on me. I did read the Zohar and I did not derive from that reading any suspiction of criticism of the Church and Christianism in general. Mere mysticism to be interepreted metaphorically.
Ben
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I meant that it was a criticism of the early writers - directed at the so called Christian Church Fathers....
They were accused of preaching one thing and keeping secrets for themselves... keeping two classes of Christians... the dumb majority and the Elect....

I find over and over, amongst the largest religious groups, there is always this separation to some degree... and it is labeled "hidden knowledge"

It was strong in the early Christian church. Partly I believe, because of the Tradition within Judaism that the prophets had stopped coming....

But there is STILL evidence that it was not stamped out among the Jews either...
The whole controversy of Arianism ( which is only minimally connected with Arian himself ) was so very widespread, and the concepts which appeared in these "mystery cults" is so very appropriately descended from that very controversy, that it must be kept in mind when reading writings from these time periods...

what could the meanings be if one were to look at these subjects with an Arian eye?

the mention of the Zohar was to get your attention - it would fit better, more probably, in another thread when we have a direction to go in... a little more should be explored ,most probably, so that the conversation should have the best chance of going somewhere... :)
 
I'm impatient so i will point this in a direction...
I feel that i have found a very important point in the ongoing understanding of The Jewish relationship with their God.
It relates directly to the whole big issue of the Trinity - and the fact that i feel the discussion was based around a misunderstanding, and because of the efforts to clarify - the average understanding suffered horribly, and the meaning "went away"
 
BrotherMichaelSky said:
I meant that it was a criticism of the early writers - directed at the so called Christian Church Fathers....
They were accused of preaching one thing and keeping secrets for themselves... keeping two classes of Christians... the dumb majority and the Elect....

I find over and over, amongst the largest religious groups, there is always this separation to some degree... and it is labeled "hidden knowledge"

It was strong in the early Christian church. Partly I believe, because of the Tradition within Judaism that the prophets had stopped coming....

But there is STILL evidence that it was not stamped out among the Jews either...
The whole controversy of Arianism ( which is only minimally connected with Arian himself ) was so very widespread, and the concepts which appeared in these "mystery cults" is so very appropriately descended from that very controversy, that it must be kept in mind when reading writings from these time periods...

what could the meanings be if one were to look at these subjects with an Arian eye?

the mention of the Zohar was to get your attention - it would fit better, more probably, in another thread when we have a direction to go in... a little more should be explored ,most probably, so that the conversation should have the best chance of going somewhere... :)
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Yes, perhaps in another thread. Therefore, I am posting another thread explaining how the "Prophets stopped coming." It is indeed a tradition but based on the prophecy about the New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one unique People. (Jer. 31:31; Ezek. 37:22) I have entitled it "An Item of the New Covenant - Part 1." You might like to check it up.
Ben
 
BrotherMichaelSky said:
I'm impatient so i will point this in a direction...
I feel that i have found a very important point in the ongoing understanding of The Jewish relationship with their God.
It relates directly to the whole big issue of the Trinity - and the fact that i feel the discussion was based around a misunderstanding, and because of the efforts to clarify - the average understanding suffered horribly, and the meaning "went away"
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Brother, I am hanging in the clouds. I mean, I do not understand what you mean by "The Jewish relationship with God is related to the issue of the Trinity." Care to elucidate? Thanks.
Ben
 
Ben Masada said:
Brother, I am hanging in the clouds. I mean, I do not understand what you mean by "The Jewish relationship with God is related to the issue of the Trinity." Care to elucidate? Thanks.
Ben
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Sure - but I am attempting to step away from the current understanding of things....
as i have been....

I believe that the original concept the Jews were to carry, was of a close and personal relationship with God.....
It is due to the development of souls that there needs to be New Messages brought...
There came a point when souls were ready for another step - that of acknowledging a personal connection to the Divine within every individual...
It was a point in the development of souls which had been prophesied about....
But that change would have required the ENTIRE established religion to change to address this new concept.... and the habits of a couple thousand years made this impossible.....

I believe it was earthly concerns which prevented further messages from getting through - and those earthly concerns demanded an interpretation of Godhead which still required the intercession of earthly priests... and a failure to acknowledge those who did indeed bring further messages...

i believe it was purposeful, that the connection to the Divine which was available to all, which is the proper understanding of souls in a state of development such as ours, was hidden and when it showed it's head - those involved were demonized....
because that connection to the Divine clearly points to the loss of control for the priest craft.... in the minds of Unaware Beings...
What i find to be slightly confusing is that AWARE beings would do so much more with the church.... it would become a light to the world.... it IS NOT as if the Church would lose influence - They would begin gaining status in a REAL manner....
But it would require the priest craft to live life honestly.... which is where the problem comes in....

one understanding of the Trinity places us squarely in the driver's seat.... taking Our Father's instruction, going to the EXACT places where we may find benefit....
the other places us in the back of the bus.... with a human being driving, and seeing the sights that they are particularly are fond of.... with little to no benefit for us....

The Christ - who was Jesus - is to be considered a Big Brother...
an accomplished sibling to be admired and emulated - who has done the very hard work to show us the way to the Father...
to deny his teaching is to throw His effort in His face - and then to ask HIM to take all of our exams, is to completely ignore all of His effort.... and completely miss the point....

I can say this as my opinion, and one can wonder where it has come from - but it is one of the first things I was led to understand...
Ignorance of the Law is no excuse - we are PERSONALLY responsible for ALL of our own creating....
and Jesus will not take it away from us - he would be taking our education from us - but He will step in and drag us from our darkness for a moment, so that we can see what He has done to get where He is.... same as He did from here...

( You may see this as a distinctly Christian thing - but that is only because I come from a Christian background... The very same soul is Revered and Admired by ALL in other spheres - and He is know THROUGHOUT creation for what He did here.... )

edit: even mentioning this in writing brings the tears to my eyes that contact with His energy always does... for folks to avoid His energy is tragic...
 
BrotherMichaelSky said:
Sure - but I am attempting to step away from the current understanding of things....
as i have been....

I believe that the original concept the Jews were to carry, was of a close and personal relationship with God.....
It is due to the development of souls that there needs to be New Messages brought...
There came a point when souls were ready for another step - that of acknowledging a personal connection to the Divine within every individual...
It was a point in the development of souls which had been prophesied about....
But that change would have required the ENTIRE established religion to change to address this new concept.... and the habits of a couple thousand years made this impossible.....

I believe it was earthly concerns which prevented further messages from getting through - and those earthly concerns demanded an interpretation of Godhead which still required the intercession of earthly priests... and a failure to acknowledge those who did indeed bring further messages...

i believe it was purposeful, that the connection to the Divine which was available to all, which is the proper understanding of souls in a state of development such as ours, was hidden and when it showed it's head - those involved were demonized....
because that connection to the Divine clearly points to the loss of control for the priest craft.... in the minds of Unaware Beings...
What i find to be slightly confusing is that AWARE beings would do so much more with the church.... it would become a light to the world.... it IS NOT as if the Church would lose influence - They would begin gaining status in a REAL manner....
But it would require the priest craft to live life honestly.... which is where the problem comes in....

one understanding of the Trinity places us squarely in the driver's seat.... taking Our Father's instruction, going to the EXACT places where we may find benefit....
the other places us in the back of the bus.... with a human being driving, and seeing the sights that they are particularly are fond of.... with little to no benefit for us....

The Christ - who was Jesus - is to be considered a Big Brother...
an accomplished sibling to be admired and emulated - who has done the very hard work to show us the way to the Father...
to deny his teaching is to throw His effort in His face - and then to ask HIM to take all of our exams, is to completely ignore all of His effort.... and completely miss the point....

I can say this as my opinion, and one can wonder where it has come from - but it is one of the first things I was led to understand...
Ignorance of the Law is no excuse - we are PERSONALLY responsible for ALL of our own creating....
and Jesus will not take it away from us - he would be taking our education from us - but He will step in and drag us from our darkness for a moment, so that we can see what He has done to get where He is.... same as He did from here...

( You may see this as a distinctly Christian thing - but that is only because I come from a Christian background... The very same soul is Revered and Admired by ALL in other spheres - and He is know THROUGHOUT creation for what He did here.... )

edit: even mentioning this in writing brings the tears to my eyes that contact with His energy always does... for folks to avoid His energy is tragic...
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Sorry brother, but I think I'll stay here in the clowds for a little while further. You have not explained enough to my understanding, that the Jewish relationship to God is akin to the Christian Trinity. You wrote a lot, even in nice prose, but it seemed to me mere verbal juggling that does not
explain anything.
Ben
 
Ben Masada said:
Sorry brother, but I think I'll stay here in the clowds for a little while further. You have not explained enough to my understanding, that the Jewish relationship to God is akin to the Christian Trinity. You wrote a lot, even in nice prose, but it seemed to me mere verbal juggling that does not
explain anything.
Ben
Click to expand...

Yeah, gonna have to work on this approach....
we'll try again when it is appropriate....
appreciate your patience - and your kindness towards my "prose"
:)
 
Ben Masada said:
Jesus once declared that no man can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and depise the other. (Mat. 6:24) Nonsense! Paul would have objected. I can prove that's possible to serve two masters. I mean, if he had been around to read that quote of Matthew...
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If you look at the history of how we acquired biblical cannon we have today, you'd see that it's been through the ringer! I also think Paul tried to create his own church, branching off differently from Christ.

I agree that we cannot help but serve 2 masters. We're not perfect & God created us this way - to be humble & teachable - to live & learn. Still, the IDEAL is to serve God & have God as our master & that is what Jesus taught. A few verses before the OP scripture quote, Jesus taught us to focus on GOoD that will not fail us... "Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, & where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." -Matt 6:2-21

To have God as our master is to be loyal & dedicated to love, light & truth. It's not easy. They say, The truth will set you free, but first it will make you mad! Most of us don't want to even consider any uncomfortable possibilities of truth. We'd rather just focus on feeling good & peaceful... but when our priority is peace, we contribute to suffering through ignor-ance.

Scott Peck wrote, "Although we have the right to desire it, we are no more entitled to inner peace than to outer peace... there is something more important than inner peace: integrity. Integrity requires, among other things, the willingness to endure discomfort for the sake of truth. To remember this, it helps me to think about Jesus, who so often felt frustrated, angry, frightened, lonely, sad, & depressed - a man who clearly desired popularity but would not sell out for it & who taught us that life is more than a popularity contest; a man who did not seem to have much "inner peace" as the world is accustomed to imagining it to be, yet who has been called the "Prince of Peace." We must be aware that there is a false kind of peace of mind that derives from being out of touch with ourselves. True inner peace requires us to be intimate with every facet of ourselves - to be not only invested in our rights but also concerned about our responsibilities."
 
Ben Masada said:
I don't believe Peter had ever anything to do with Christianity.The Church made him the first Pope in order to enhance the prestige of Christianity with apostolic creditation.
Ben
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Peter may have been set up, but then so was Judas Iscariot (Ze 11:12)(Mt 27:9). Peter had a role to play. He was to be a "stumbling block" and a false rock of the church. (Mt 16:18-23) And as in Is 22:15-19, he was a parallel to Shebna, a bad steward to the royal household, who had the keys of David, and who was to be deposed. Peter's supposed heir, the pope, who parallels Eliakim, Shebna's successor, is yet to be deposed, but the writing is on the wall, so to speak.

Peter was commanded to "tend my sheep" (John 21:17), this with respect to Judah, yet Peter left Jerusalem, possibly under duress, as Paul left under duress, but he left all the same. Because he left, he is referred to as the "worthless shepherd" in Ze 11:17. For the shepherd of Ze 11:17, was the same shepherd of Ze 11:16, who didn't tend the sheep, and left the flock.

Peter may have gone to Antioch, or as the Roman church claims, wound up in Rome. The point is that his supposed vision, in Acts, is a foundational point of "Christianity". Not that it is certain that he actually had a vision, but a vision from him would have fit in well with Ze 13:4, whereas the prophets would be ashamed of their visions. Not that Peter was a prophet, but the Roman church canonized his vision, giving him the position as a prophet.

Judas Iscariot was chosen because he loved money. Peter was chosen because he was a tall, good looking guy, who thought a lot of himself. That can be problematic.
 
Persona said:
If you look at the history of how we acquired biblical cannon we have today, you'd see that it's been through the ringer! I also think Paul tried to create his own church, branching off differently from Christ.

I agree that we cannot help but serve 2 masters. We're not perfect & God created us this way - to be humble & teachable - to live & learn. Still, the IDEAL is to serve God & have God as our master & that is what Jesus taught. A few verses before the OP scripture quote, Jesus taught us to focus on GOoD that will not fail us... "Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, & where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." -Matt 6:2-21

To have God as our master is to be loyal & dedicated to love, light & truth. It's not easy. They say, The truth will set you free, but first it will make you mad! Most of us don't want to even consider any uncomfortable possibilities of truth. We'd rather just focus on feeling good & peaceful... but when our priority is peace, we contribute to suffering through ignor-ance.

Scott Peck wrote, "Although we have the right to desire it, we are no more entitled to inner peace than to outer peace... there is something more important than inner peace: integrity. Integrity requires, among other things, the willingness to endure discomfort for the sake of truth. To remember this, it helps me to think about Jesus, who so often felt frustrated, angry, frightened, lonely, sad, & depressed - a man who clearly desired popularity but would not sell out for it & who taught us that life is more than a popularity contest; a man who did not seem to have much "inner peace" as the world is accustomed to imagining it to be, yet who has been called the "Prince of Peace." We must be aware that there is a false kind of peace of mind that derives from being out of touch with ourselves. True inner peace requires us to be intimate with every facet of ourselves - to be not only invested in our rights but also concerned about our responsibilities."
Click to expand...

Behold, a post that impressed me, not only for the wise concepts you have exposed to our understanding but also that you are the first Christian to agree with Paul that one can indeed serve two masters. True that it contradicts Jesus' words, but I do agree with you. Not only that anyone has the right to be hypocrite but also that sometimes we just can't avoid it. And BTW, that right to be hypocrite is also NOT a sin. Sometimes it is sweet to fantasize.
Ben
 
showme said:
Peter may have been set up, but then so was Judas Iscariot (Ze 11:12)(Mt 27:9). Peter had a role to play. He was to be a "stumbling block" and a false rock of the church. (Mt 16:18-23) And as in Is 22:15-19, he was a parallel to Shebna, a bad steward to the royal household, who had the keys of David, and who was to be deposed. Peter's supposed heir, the pope, who parallels Eliakim, Shebna's successor, is yet to be deposed, but the writing is on the wall, so to speak.

Peter was commanded to "tend my sheep" (John 21:17), this with respect to Judah, yet Peter left Jerusalem, possibly under duress, as Paul left under duress, but he left all the same. Because he left, he is referred to as the "worthless shepherd" in Ze 11:17. For the shepherd of Ze 11:17, was the same shepherd of Ze 11:16, who didn't tend the sheep, and left the flock.

Peter may have gone to Antioch, or as the Roman church claims, wound up in Rome. The point is that his supposed vision, in Acts, is a foundational point of "Christianity". Not that it is certain that he actually had a vision, but a vision from him would have fit in well with Ze 13:4, whereas the prophets would be ashamed of their visions. Not that Peter was a prophet, but the Roman church canonized his vision, giving him the position as a prophet.

Judas Iscariot was chosen because he loved money. Peter was chosen because he was a tall, good looking guy, who thought a lot of himself. That can be problematic.
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Showme, this time I was caught by: "Judas Iscariot was chosen because he loved money." I doubt it, but, let it go by, for the time being, and give me, if you can, an example of someone who does not love money.

Ben
 
Ben Masada said:
Showme, this time I was caught by: "Judas Iscariot was chosen because he loved money." I doubt it, but, let it go by, for the time being, and give me, if you can, an example of someone who does not love money.

Ben
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Your master is either love or money. This expressed by Yeshua:

Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

As for Paul, I think he had several demons he served. Mammon probably wasn't one of them.

As for an example, I am presently reading a book called "You will see fire", about a Catholic priest in Kenya, who lived in a simple mud brick house, when at his parrish, which he built himself, or in the huts of the Masai or other tribesmen when in the field. His transportation was either a motor bike on broken roads, or eventually a very old Toyota truck. He lived on the native corn meal and meat he shot for himself and his parish. Although a Catholic, with misplaced priorities, and other problems, he lived as the people he tried to take care of, and died trying to right the wrongs the authorities visited upon the helpless people throughout Kenya. He was one of the reasons that the internation authorities are taking Kenyan politicians to the Hague for trial. He was murdered for his trying to pursue justice for the widows and orphans, along with the whole nation.

I was in Kenya in the 1970's building water supplies. A beautiful country, but while I was there, the president, Jomo Kenyata, supposedly had a political rival killed and fed to the lions. The political rival had dinner with the chief law enforcement officer of Jomo Kenyata, and the next morning, they found the rival being eaten by lions in the park outside of Nairobi.

John Kaiser, the priest, was most probably killed by just one of the government officials, one among many who had made threats, but who had the habit of raping young girls, but who was the right hand man of the Kenyan president Moi.

While I may feel that burying the dead, and giving communion, and hearing confessions is of questionable value, he did build schools, medical facilities, and dormitories for students. Above all, he looked after widows and orphans, and gave his life in that pursuit. I don't think he was doing all this for all the money that missionaries get.
 
showme said:
Your master is either love or money. This expressed by Yeshua:
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I doubt it. You have forgotten that Jesus was a Jew. It is a Jewish characteristic to love, God and money. Why? Because we have proved that money is the root of all good. The guy who said that one is not supposed to love money must have been a tremendous hypocrite.

Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Click to expand...

That's what you think! Money is the mean we can save many souls from starvation.

As for Paul, I think he had several demons he served. Mammon probably wasn't one of them.
Click to expand...

When Paul thanked God in Romans 7:25, it was because he could serve God's Law in his mind and sin in his flesh. Why did he thank God for that? Because he claimed to be in Christ. But he made sure his followers understood that, that exception to the rule was to be applied to him only.

As for an example, I am presently reading a book called "You will see fire", about a Catholic priest in Kenya, who lived in a simple mud brick house, when at his parrish, which he built himself, or in the huts of the Masai or other tribesmen when in the field. His transportation was either a motor bike on broken roads, or eventually a very old Toyota truck. He lived on the native corn meal and meat he shot for himself and his parish. Although a Catholic, with misplaced priorities, and other problems, he lived as the people he tried to take care of, and died trying to right the wrongs the authorities visited upon the helpless people throughout Kenya. He was one of the reasons that the internation authorities are taking Kenyan politicians to the Hague for trial. He was murdered for his trying to pursue justice for the widows and orphans, along with the whole nation.
Click to expand...

Very interesting.

I was in Kenya in the 1970's building water supplies. A beautiful country, but while I was there, the president, Jomo Kenyata, supposedly had a political rival killed and fed to the lions. The political rival had dinner with the chief law enforcement officer of Jomo Kenyata, and the next morning, they found the rival being eaten by lions in the park outside of Nairobi.
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Tragic!

John Kaiser, the priest, was most probably killed by just one of the government officials, one among many who had made threats, but who had the habit of raping young girls, but who was the right hand man of the Kenyan president Moi.
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Corruption!

While I may feel that burying the dead, and giving communion, and hearing confessions is of questionable value, he did build schools, medical facilities, and dormitories for students. Above all, he looked after widows and orphans, and gave his life in that pursuit. I don't think he was doing all this for all the money that missionaries get.
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Idealism.

Ben
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Ben Masada said:
showme said:
I doubt it. You have forgotten that Jesus was a Jew. It is a Jewish characteristic to love, God and money. Why? Because we have proved that money is the root of all good. The guy who said that one is not supposed to love money must have been a tremendous hypocrite.

Showme's latest response in green:
That may well be a general jewish opinion based on a history of having to emmigrate at the drop of a hat and travel light, but it didn't work for Bernie Madoff, and a lot of his friends. Those who think happiness is found in money may well find out that they are on a path to destruction.

That's what you think! Money is the mean we can save many souls from starvation.

As for money saving many souls from starvation, I think reality does not show it to be working, no matter how rich the jewish community might get. A little justice might be a better source of achieving that end.


When Paul thanked God in Romans 7:25, it was because he could serve God's Law in his mind and sin in his flesh. Why did he thank God for that? Because he claimed to be in Christ. But he made sure his followers understood that, that exception to the rule was to be applied to him only.



Very interesting.



Tragic!



Corruption!



Idealism.

Ben
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Paul is simply a self proclaimed apostle and prophet. He is probably not the first nor the last. Paul had problems, and was guilty of duplicity, and the ability to decieve the many, but how should that cause a problem for you?
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showme said:
Ben Masada said:
Paul is simply a self proclaimed apostle and prophet. He is probably not the first nor the last. Paul had problems, and was guilty of duplicity, and the ability to decieve the many, but how should that cause a problem for you?
Click to expand...

My problem with Paul is not his arrogance that he alone is entitled to serve two masters, - Rom. 7:25 - but about his pretense to replace Judaism with Christianity. (Gal. 4:21-31)
Ben
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