The Forbidden Gospel

Yep, you do. Look forward to it! And yep, Nazarenes probably were Ebionites by another name. If thay had survived (possible if the Early Church had failed) you would have more than just the Karaites to deal with.
 
radarmark said:
Yep, you do. Look forward to it! And yep, Nazarenes probably were Ebionites by another name. If thay had survived (possible if the Early Church had failed) you would have more than just the Karaites to deal with.
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Now, you have left me with a question mark in my mind for I have rather been charged with being too akin to the Karaites with my beliefs of "Sola
Scriptura."
Ben
 
Ben Masada said:
He who, Jesus or the hellenistic guy who wrote the gospel attributed to Matthew? And for two reasons Jesus could not have been the author of Mat.28:18,19. First, because he would be contradicting himself after Mat. 10:5, when he forbade to take the gospel to the Gentiles.

And second, because he was a Jewish man, and a Jewish man, would never baptize another in the name of the Trinity when he believes that God is absolutely One.

Besides, he would have to be insane to make himself the second person of that Trinity as supposing to be a god himself. This would be adopting the Greek trinity of Zeus, Posseidon and Hades, which forms the triune heads of Greek Mythology. That's in the Iliad of Homer.
Ben
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well, Jesus' Dad wasn't exactly the guy next door..... A Hellenist would have seen through that little trick of logic.... For a Jew to accept Jesus, his dad would have had to have a last name...
When they took away Jesus' daddy - everything went to hell....
It was supposed to make him more "special" but it alienated monotheists....
 
Ben Masada said:
... One day, Jesus summoned his disciples, the Twelve, and asked them to sit down for he had a very impotant message ...
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Servetus said:
This, your "Forbidden Gospel," is a very impotent message indeed.
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Ben Masada said:
The forbidden gospel, aka, Judaism, was the gospel of Jesus. (Mat. 5:17-19) What you have is the gospel of Paul.
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Ben, pay attention. I was playing upon your typographical error (impotant vs. impotent).
 
And furthermore ...

Ben Masada said:
Colloquially, the conversation went thus:

Jesus: Beloved, the time has come to send you on a mission with the gospel about the Kingdom of God. I am giving you authority to expell evil spirits, and to cure sickness, and disease of every kind. (Mat. 10:1)

Thomas: Wow! That will be cool! We will actually be able to cure people of their diseases as well as to exorcize evil spirits? That will be the day!

Jesus: Don't be too excited Thomas, there is a catch to it. You cannot take this gospel to the Gentiles, and I forbid you even to enter a Samaritan town; to the Jews only, if you understand what I mean. (Mat. 10:5)

Thomas: I knew it! No wonder I was smelling the rat here somewhere. How can we do this among people who don't even believe in demons?
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Then Ben Masada's cardboard caricature of the man who transcended his tribal perspectives and in the process became a universal teacher, Jesus of Nazareth, said:

"Nice, almost subtle switch there, Thomas. If this people of yours doesn't believe in evil spirits, why, then, have some of them made Samael the guardian angel of Esau and father of Cain? Get your comparative mythologies straight or ye cannot be one of my disciples. Now go, learn what this means:

Source:

SAMAEL:
Prince of the demons, and an important figure both in Talmudic and in post-Talmudic literature, where he appears as accuser, seducer, and destroyer ... "
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Serv
 
Ben Masada said:
A hellenistic cult in the beginning, and up to the beginning of the 4th Century ACE, when it became a major religion to compete with any other on earth.

As a sect of Judaism, Christianity never was and it still has nothing to do with Judaism. It started already as a result of the imaginations of a former hellenistic Jew called Paul in the city of Antioch about 35 years after Jesus had been gone. (Acts 11:26)

The most recent sect of Judaism at the time was the Sect of the Nazarenes, whose gospel was not the same as the gospel of Paul. (Gal. 1:6-9)
Ben
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Not so - they were most assuredly Jews before the 4th century....
just Jews with an annoying belief... Jews who believed in the words of another Jew.....

They were simply disowned as a sect of Judaism - because of their belief...
Like the Nazarenes... and because of fundamental differences in approach stopped calling themselves Jews....

and i believe there WERE very keen similarities between what the nazarenes were sharing and what Paul was saying.... the essenes were tripping around that point as well...

but as is the never ending story - Those with the largest finances won out....
Your problem with associating early Christianity with Hellenism is that Hellenism requires logical thinking....
Plato was alive and kicking before the period you are referring to, and it is interesting to read his ideas on the subject....
The environment was not a simple as you portray...
Plato gives an example of reincarnation in action, and his thoughts surrounding such ideas... to have such a simplistic idea of the environment in which the early church formed, is to have very few tools for understanding...

This were so many currents coming together to define the popular belief that much digging is needed.... in many different directions...
To start from a Jewish Background is not enough to recognize the complexity of the discussion - because Doctrine "Settled" on each side for a VERY long time before each took it's settled form....

One must have a few more pieces to realize it's not a Jewish thing, or a Christian thing... It's a Divine Thing..... and as such it will ALWAYS be shared.... it is our understanding which limits...

and that is a lesson which has been preached for thousands of years - I am in good company... :)
 
BrotherMichaelSky said:
I so very much wanted to play with that.... but, i was on my best behavior....
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In most of these toga parties which Ben Masada hosts under the guise of a sort of, using the word loosely, dialog with Christians, there is usually no need to be on one's best behavior. If you have some extra Jello, feel free to see if it sticks to the ceiling (but do it advisedly, and within the parameters of the rules of the board, else you might hear from the moderators) :D.


Serv
 
Servetus said:
In most of these toga parties which Ben Masada hosts under the guise of a sort of, using the word loosely, dialog with Christians, there is usually no need to be on one's best behavior. If you have some extra Jello, feel free to see if it sticks to the ceiling (but do it advisedly, and within the parameters of the rules of the board, else you might hear from the moderators) :D.


Serv
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even those moments when i know i should just let it pass - seldom do i....
i just may have used up my quota of "behave yourself", any minute now someone will recognize me from somewhere........ :)
 
BrotherMichaelSky said:
well, Jesus' Dad wasn't exactly the guy next door..... A Hellenist would have seen through that little trick of logic.... For a Jew to accept Jesus, his dad would have had to have a last name...
When they took away Jesus' daddy - everything went to hell....
It was supposed to make him more "special" but it alienated monotheists....
Click to expand...

What was the last name of Panthera? I mean, if Jesus was not a biological son of Joseph's. Many Jewish ladies who were raped in the First Century by Roman soldiers, their children did not carry their father's last name.
Ben
 
Servetus said:
Ben, pay attention. I was playing upon your typographical error (impotant vs. impotent).
Click to expand...

Are you sure this message about the forbidden gospel is impotent? Maybe because of the invulnerability of faith, which won't allow the faithfuls to reason. That's why the faithfuls of Jim Jones went down to Hades.
Ben
 
Servetus said:
And furthermore ...

Then Ben Masada's cardboard caricature of the man who transcended his tribal perspectives and in the process became a universal teacher, Jesus of Nazareth, said:

Serv
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Well, the angel of the Covenant had to come from somewhere. (Mal. 3:1)

And BTW, about Samael mentioned in the Talmud? There is nothing literal about it. First of all it is a midrash. Midrashim are like parables. Mere allegories, which by definition, are to be interpreted metaphorically.
Ben
 
BrotherMichaelSky said:
Not so - they were most assuredly Jews before the 4th century....
just Jews with an annoying belief... Jews who believed in the words of another Jew.....

They were simply disowned as a sect of Judaism - because of their belief...
Like the Nazarenes... and because of fundamental differences in approach stopped calling themselves Jews....

and i believe there WERE very keen similarities between what the nazarenes were sharing and what Paul was saying.... the essenes were tripping around that point as well...

but as is the never ending story - Those with the largest finances won out....
Your problem with associating early Christianity with Hellenism is that Hellenism requires logical thinking....
Plato was alive and kicking before the period you are referring to, and it is interesting to read his ideas on the subject....
The environment was not a simple as you portray...
Plato gives an example of reincarnation in action, and his thoughts surrounding such ideas... to have such a simplistic idea of the environment in which the early church formed, is to have very few tools for understanding...

This were so many currents coming together to define the popular belief that much digging is needed.... in many different directions...
To start from a Jewish Background is not enough to recognize the complexity of the discussion - because Doctrine "Settled" on each side for a VERY long time before each took it's settled form....

One must have a few more pieces to realize it's not a Jewish thing, or a Christian thing... It's a Divine Thing..... and as such it will ALWAYS be shared.... it is our understanding which limits...

and that is a lesson which has been preached for thousands of years - I am in good company... :)
Click to expand...

There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian. When a Jew becomes a Christian he ceases being a Jew. Therefore, they were no longer Jews in the First Century, who had decided to accept the Church of Paul.
Ben
 
Ben Masada said:
And BTW, about Samael mentioned in the Talmud? There is nothing literal about it. First of all it is a midrash. Midrashim are like parables. Mere allegories, which by definition, are to be interpreted metaphorically.
Click to expand...

Nice, almost subtle switch there, Ben, but how you interpret things is irrelevant. The point is, if Jews don't believe in demons, as you had your little ignoramus fictional character (not the member on this board) Thomas say, then Samael, the so called "Prince of demons," as the writer put it, sure got an inexplicably long article of his own in the Jewish Encyclopedia I cited.


Serv
 
Ben Masada said:
What was the last name of Panthera? I mean, if Jesus was not a biological son of Joseph's. Many Jewish ladies who were raped in the First Century by Roman soldiers, their children did not carry their father's last name.
Ben
Click to expand...

It's all in the interpretation of the account, I believe...
I believe his daddy was a human man....
and His Father the Father of All
 
Ben Masada said:
Well, the angel of the Covenant had to come from somewhere. (Mal. 3:1)

And BTW, about Samael mentioned in the Talmud? There is nothing literal about it. First of all it is a midrash. Midrashim are like parables. Mere allegories, which by definition, are to be interpreted metaphorically.
Ben
Click to expand...

no you didn't....
did he?...
yes, he did.......

i don't approve of your definition.....
 
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