Were There Two Different Jesuses?

[Ben Masada]

WERE THERE TWO DIFFERENT JESUSES?

When Luke wrote Acts of the Apostles to Theophilus, he guaranteed him that he had dealt with ALL that Jesus did and taught until the end of his life on earth.(Acts 1:1,2) If Luke is someone worthy believing, there must be something wrong with Matthew.

1. I am not talking about the huge difference in the genealogy of Jesus.(Mat. 1:1-17)
2. I am not talking about the anxiety of Mary to explain her pregnancy without having yet slept with Joseph.(Mat. 1:18-25)
3. I am not talking about the Astrologers from the East who came to worship the newborn "King of the Jews." (Mat. 2:1,2)
4. I am not talking about the star that stood still over the place where the child was.(Mat. 2:9-11)
5. I am not talking about the flight with the child to Egypt.(Mat. 2:13-15)
6. I am not talking about the slaughering of the innocent under the age of two with the Herodian intent to catch Jesus.(Mat. 2:16-18)
7. And I am not talking about a lot of other things that Luke ignores in his accurate account of EVERYTHING about Jesus to Theophilus.

Here's what I am talking about: While the Jesus of Matthew was still in Egypt waiting for Herod to die, the Jesus of Luke was born, after 8 days, circumcised, and on the 40th day he was presented in the Temple; and immediately after these requirements of the Law, the family headed back to Galilee, and their own town of Nazareth.(Luke 2:21,22,39)

Now, bear in mind , that Jesus was only 40 days old when they headed back home to Nazareth. In the meantime, the Jesus of Matthew was still trapped in Egypt waiting for the word of the "angel" with the news that Herod had finally died. Perhaps in order to spare the embarrassment, the age of this Jesus is omitted.

Therefore, how many Jesuses were there? If there was but one, either gospel writer is lying or neither ever met each other. But how about the spirit that inspired the revelation?

I think Christianity will be better off if we don't remove that stone. The smell will be too strong.

Ben

 

[radarmark]

The problem is with how you are reading the gospels. They are not perfect, they are not consistent, they have all the tell-tale indications of being sort of hellenistic biographies. The truth is not in the words. It is in the intention of the authors (all of whom had their own agendas--as did Thomas and whoever wrote Q). Very few (and I believe they are mistaken) read them as literal history; which it looks like what you are doing. The same kind of criticism can be made of any and all Holy Texts.

 

[Ben Masada]

The problem is with how you are reading the gospels. They are not perfect, they are not consistent, they have all the tell-tale indications of being sort of hellenistic biographies. The truth is not in the words. It is in the intention of the authors (all of whom had their own agendas--as did Thomas and whoever wrote Q). Very few (and I believe they are mistaken) read them as literal history; which it looks like what you are doing. The same kind of criticism can be made of any and all Holy Texts.

Yes, if one claims literal Divine inspiration. The problem with the gospels is the attempt of the authors to vandalize Judaism with the hellenistic idea that the Greek myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman, is possible in Judaism.
Ben

 

[Amergin]

The problem is with how you are reading the gospels. They are not perfect, they are not consistent, they have all the tell-tale indications of being sort of hellenistic biographies. The truth is not in the words. It is in the intention of the authors (all of whom had their own agendas--as did Thomas and whoever wrote Q). Very few (and I believe they are mistaken) read them as literal history; which it looks like what you are doing. The same kind of criticism can be made of any and all Holy Texts.

I agree that reading the gospels literally contradicts almost all of traditional Trinity Christianity. You are right; they are not consistent and self-contradictory almost as much as the Old Testament. OT says everyone dies and nobody dies. The O.T. can be explained by the incorporation of old pre-Judaic pagan myths in a rather haphazard compilation. Akkadian, Sumerian, Babylonian, Proto-Semites of Arabia, and Iranian Indo-European religion.

The Gospels show a Jesus with three stories. First is the ancient traditional virgin birth of a god-impregnated saviour. There are 16 known such saviours. Jesus was not even the last of those mythical saviours. It appears to resemble Zoroastrian, Celtic/Druid, Teutonic, Roman, Greek, and Illyrian Indo-European cults of virgin born saviours, spawned by the high god, to be sacrificed or killed to redeem humanity. The Stable birth history of Jesus is borrowed.

The second Jesus is the man, and I say, "MAN." This Jesus preaches, teaches morality, compassion, healing, opposes stoning executions, forgiveness, and justice. He is clearly a human being (100% human.) He claims he was sent by God to do God’s work, do to God’s will, and is subordinate to God. He never claims to be God. This is the most credible Jesus of all.

The Third Jesus is the man charged with insurrection by the Romans for supposedly claiming to be the rightful King of Israel. That is why they bothered to try to list his lineage from King David. David was not a god either. Romans crucified him because it was a political crime threatening Roman authority. If he had claimed to be a god or THE GOD, the Romans would not interfere with provincial religious priests punishing him for blasphemy (i.e. stoning to death, and then hung on a tree as an example. He was crucified. The story is unclear if he died or simply lost consciousness. Pulse, respirations, pupil reactivity, passive vestibular eye movements, muscle tone, and heartbeat were not recorded. Even soldiers mistakenly called an unconscious person dead only to have them regain consciousness hours or days later. 36 hours later, he walks out of a tomb. Romans did not report this in the Roman Provincial Log. This Jesus was a copy of the virgin born semi-gods of the older religions.

There is a fourth Jesus. He is the Jesus of the Book of Revelations. This is a Warrior General who leads a horrible army of killer angels, and who shows no remorse for his barbaric genocidal war. This is incompatible with the more likely real Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount. As I posted before, the Revelations Jesus with his sea monsters, rivers of blood, many headed beasts, is most likely an 1800-year-old horror story. This story not only resembles the Cthulhu Horror series of H.P. Lovecraft; but I have read that Lovecraft designed the mythical Cthulhu and his evil minions after the Jesus and Angels of the Book of Revelations.

In summary, we have no proof that there ever was an actual Jesus of Nazareth who preached reform or not. The evidence is all hearsay. However, the Jesus of the Gospels between the virgin birth myth and the resurrection myth was likely a real man, and a great man. He may have been a composite of several naturally human saviours (Buddha, Zarathustra, Krishna, Simon Magus, Honi, Honori ben Dosa, and Apollonius of Tyana. Greek or Hellenized Jews created the Mythological Jesus more than a century after his supposed death.


Amergin

 

[Ben Masada]

I agree that reading the gospels literally contradicts almost all of traditional Trinity Christianity. You are right; they are not consistent and self-contradictory almost as much as the Old Testament. OT says everyone dies and nobody dies. The O.T. can be explained by the incorporation of old pre-Judaic pagan myths in a rather haphazard compilation. Akkadian, Sumerian, Babylonian, Proto-Semites of Arabia, and Iranian Indo-European religion.

The Gospels show a Jesus with three stories. First is the ancient traditional virgin birth of a god-impregnated saviour. There are 16 known such saviours. Jesus was not even the last of those mythical saviours. It appears to resemble Zoroastrian, Celtic/Druid, Teutonic, Roman, Greek, and Illyrian Indo-European cults of virgin born saviours, spawned by the high god, to be sacrificed or killed to redeem humanity. The Stable birth history of Jesus is borrowed.

The second Jesus is the man, and I say, "MAN." This Jesus preaches, teaches morality, compassion, healing, opposes stoning executions, forgiveness, and justice. He is clearly a human being (100% human.) He claims he was sent by God to do God’s work, do to God’s will, and is subordinate to God. He never claims to be God. This is the most credible Jesus of all.

The Third Jesus is the man charged with insurrection by the Romans for supposedly claiming to be the rightful King of Israel. That is why they bothered to try to list his lineage from King David. David was not a god either. Romans crucified him because it was a political crime threatening Roman authority. If he had claimed to be a god or THE GOD, the Romans would not interfere with provincial religious priests punishing him for blasphemy (i.e. stoning to death, and then hung on a tree as an example. He was crucified. The story is unclear if he died or simply lost consciousness. Pulse, respirations, pupil reactivity, passive vestibular eye movements, muscle tone, and heartbeat were not recorded. Even soldiers mistakenly called an unconscious person dead only to have them regain consciousness hours or days later. 36 hours later, he walks out of a tomb. Romans did not report this in the Roman Provincial Log. This Jesus was a copy of the virgin born semi-gods of the older religions.

There is a fourth Jesus. He is the Jesus of the Book of Revelations. This is a Warrior General who leads a horrible army of killer angels, and who shows no remorse for his barbaric genocidal war. This is incompatible with the more likely real Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount. As I posted before, the Revelations Jesus with his sea monsters, rivers of blood, many headed beasts, is most likely an 1800-year-old horror story. This story not only resembles the Cthulhu Horror series of H.P. Lovecraft; but I have read that Lovecraft designed the mythical Cthulhu and his evil minions after the Jesus and Angels of the Book of Revelations.

In summary, we have no proof that there ever was an actual Jesus of Nazareth who preached reform or not. The evidence is all hearsay. However, the Jesus of the Gospels between the virgin birth myth and the resurrection myth was likely a real man, and a great man. He may have been a composite of several naturally human saviours (Buddha, Zarathustra, Krishna, Simon Magus, Honi, Honori ben Dosa, and Apollonius of Tyana. Greek or Hellenized Jews created the Mythological Jesus more than a century after his supposed death.


Amergin

I agree with the second Jesus.

 

[Amergin]

I agree with the second Jesus.

I could add another Jesus or Yeshua who lived a century and a half earlier than Jesus of Nazareth. He was mentioned in the Torah as living in the time of temporary independence of Israel following the revolt of the Maccabees. This Jesus was called Ben Pacheria. He preached a moral message, healed the sick, and performed what observers called miracles. He studied healing (sorcery) in Egypt before returning to Israel.

Thus, he was tried by the Jewish Clergy for Sorcery, found guilty, and stoned to death. Interestingly, after being stoned to death, he was hung on a tree (for all to see as the penalty for sorcery.) Dr. Massey mentions that his mother was a Miriam of Magdala.

It could be that this story gave rise to the flight of Jesus with Mary to Egypt obviously returning to Israel. His mission in Israel backfired. Like Jesus of Nazareth 140 years later, he never claimed to be King. Jesus Pacheria never claimed the Hasmonean Throne of Israel.

Even the false religion of Christianity had at least two different Jesus' who were divine or semi-diving. Paul and Bishop Arius claimed that Jesus was a created God subordinate to the Higher God. Arian Christianity was the dominant form for 2 centuries.

Christianity's other Jesus was the one who was fully deified and merged with the High God and an ill-defined Holy Spirit into a Trinity God more typical of Indo-European Paganisms. There is a suggestion by Gibbon and other writers that Trinitarian Christianity triumphed ONLY because Constantine supported his mother, St. Helena's conversion to Trinitarian Christianity. Constantine had to call a Synod at Nicaea in 324 CE. He imposed Trinitarianism on all the varied Jesus Cults. Convert, flee the empire, or die. Theodosius I and II made Trinitarianism official and obligatory. Great persecutions of non-Trinitarian Christians followed. When Christian rivals were eliminated, Theodosius II began a horrendous (millions of deaths) persecution of Pagans.

Romans had previously allowed many religions to flourish. It was not illegal to form a religion, no matter how ridiculous. The infamous Roman persecution of Christians was largely false propaganda spread by Christians. The really big and lethal persecutions began in 393 CE with the sacking of the Great Library of Alexandria, and 412 CE with the horrid torture and quartering of the beautiful and educated Philosopher/scientist, Hypatia of Alexandria. The numbers of non-Trinitarian Christians and Pagans is not recorded but estimates are in the hundred thousands to a million. It was so horrendous that virtually no Arians, Gnostics, Marcians, Thomasites, and Magdalenites survived except for a pocket on Thomasites who sought refuge in India. They still exist there. All Pagans were either murdered, fled to Persia, or went into hiding (closet free thinkers.)

It is interesting to me that of all the 7 or 8 major variations of the Jesus myth, the most irrational and likely farthest from the true Jesus won dominance as Orthodox Catholicism. The remnants of the non-Trinity rivals exist only in the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of latter Day Saints (Mormons), and small groups of nominal Arians, Cathars, Thomasites in Goa, Nestorians in parts of Asia, and some Messianic Jews.

Amergin

 

[Ben Masada]

I could add another Jesus or Yeshua who lived a century and a half earlier than Jesus of Nazareth. He was mentioned in the Torah as living in the time of temporary independence of Israel following the revolt of the Maccabees. This Jesus was called Ben Pacheria. He preached a moral message, healed the sick, and performed what observers called miracles. He studied healing (sorcery) in Egypt before returning to Israel.

Thus, he was tried by the Jewish Clergy for Sorcery, found guilty, and stoned to death. Interestingly, after being stoned to death, he was hung on a tree (for all to see as the penalty for sorcery.) Dr. Massey mentions that his mother was a Miriam of Magdala.

It could be that this story gave rise to the flight of Jesus with Mary to Egypt obviously returning to Israel. His mission in Israel backfired. Like Jesus of Nazareth 140 years later, he never claimed to be King. Jesus Pacheria never claimed the Hasmonean Throne of Israel.

Even the false religion of Christianity had at least two different Jesus' who were divine or semi-diving. Paul and Bishop Arius claimed that Jesus was a created God subordinate to the Higher God. Arian Christianity was the dominant form for 2 centuries.

Christianity's other Jesus was the one who was fully deified and merged with the High God and an ill-defined Holy Spirit into a Trinity God more typical of Indo-European Paganisms. There is a suggestion by Gibbon and other writers that Trinitarian Christianity triumphed ONLY because Constantine supported his mother, St. Helena's conversion to Trinitarian Christianity. Constantine had to call a Synod at Nicaea in 324 CE. He imposed Trinitarianism on all the varied Jesus Cults. Convert, flee the empire, or die. Theodosius I and II made Trinitarianism official and obligatory. Great persecutions of non-Trinitarian Christians followed. When Christian rivals were eliminated, Theodosius II began a horrendous (millions of deaths) persecution of Pagans.

Romans had previously allowed many religions to flourish. It was not illegal to form a religion, no matter how ridiculous. The infamous Roman persecution of Christians was largely false propaganda spread by Christians. The really big and lethal persecutions began in 393 CE with the sacking of the Great Library of Alexandria, and 412 CE with the horrid torture and quartering of the beautiful and educated Philosopher/scientist, Hypatia of Alexandria. The numbers of non-Trinitarian Christians and Pagans is not recorded but estimates are in the hundred thousands to a million. It was so horrendous that virtually no Arians, Gnostics, Marcians, Thomasites, and Magdalenites survived except for a pocket on Thomasites who sought refuge in India. They still exist there. All Pagans were either murdered, fled to Persia, or went into hiding (closet free thinkers.)

It is interesting to me that of all the 7 or 8 major variations of the Jesus myth, the most irrational and likely farthest from the true Jesus won dominance as Orthodox Catholicism. The remnants of the non-Trinity rivals exist only in the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of latter Day Saints (Mormons), and small groups of nominal Arians, Cathars, Thomasites in Goa, Nestorians in parts of Asia, and some Messianic Jews.

Amergin

Hey Amergin, thanks for this golden pearl of information. I enjoyed reading it. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks again.
Ben

 

[Thomas]

Hi Ben —

I think Christianity will be better off if we don't remove that stone. The smell will be too strong.

Bear in mind that Matthew is addressing a primarily Jewish audience, and Luke a primarily Gentile one.

So here's a reading:
Mary conceives by the power of the Holy Spirit. She is with child, and Joseph agrees to take her as his spouse ... he, too, has his reasons to believe she is not lying.

Their respective families however, are not so forgiving. Mary goes to stay with her cousin Elizabeth, and when Joseph takes her to his home town, there is no room to be had, his family refuses to accept Mary and he is obliged to find some other accommodation ... we can well accept that after the birth, Joseph's family is no more forgiving ... in fact some of his relations are so angry, they decide to kill the child ... so it's not Herod whom the Holy Family
are running from, its Uncle Harry ...

So Matthew, conscious of his audience, 'sanitised' the account to avoid offending them.

Nonsense? I think so, but no less improbable than some of the stuff you've been posting.

Here's another version —
The Three Wise Men did not arrive on the day of Our Lord's birth, but some time after. A while after, in fact, and there's many scholars who endorse that idea ... so the flight to Egypt happened in His early childhood.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Ben Masada]

Hi Ben —

Bear in mind that Matthew is addressing a primarily Jewish audience, and Luke a primarily Gentile one.

So here's a reading:
Mary conceives by the power of the Holy Spirit. She is with child, and Joseph agrees to take her as his spouse ... he, too, has his reasons to believe she is not lying.

Their respective families however, are not so forgiving. Mary goes to stay with her cousin Elizabeth, and when Joseph takes her to his home town, there is no room to be had, his family refuses to accept Mary and he is obliged to find some other accommodation ... we can well accept that after the birth, Joseph's family is no more forgiving ... in fact some of his relations are so angry, they decide to kill the child ... so it's not Herod whom the Holy Family
are running from, its Uncle Harry ...

So Matthew, conscious of his audience, 'sanitised' the account to avoid offending them.

Nonsense? I think so, but no less improbable than some of the stuff you've been posting.

Here's another version —
The Three Wise Men did not arrive on the day of Our Lord's birth, but some time after. A while after, in fact, and there's many scholars who endorse that idea ... so the flight to Egypt happened in His early childhood.

God bless,

Thomas

The flight to Egypt was fabricated in the mind of the Hellenistic guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew while he was hunting for prophecies in the Tanach to document Jesus as the one. Then, he found Hosea 11:1.

The guy was so stupid that he thought we would never find out later that the text was about Israel in the cradle of its establishment as a People. IOW, the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. "When Israel was a child, I loved him; and out of Egypt, I called My son." (Hos. 11:1) My son? Why My son? Because at the time Moses was trying to freed Israel from Egypt, he spoke to Pharaoh as if God saying: "Israel is My son. So, let My son go that he may serve Me." Then, "Matthew" must have yelled: Wow! This is a good one! And he replaced the name "Israel" with that of "Jesus." (Mat. 2:15) Then, he kept the search for more.
Ben