Messiah ben Joseph vs. Messiah ben David

[Ben Masada]

Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David


The whole chapter 53 of Isaiah is about the dramatic epic of two Messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. The drama that culminated in the "death" of Messiah ben Joseph for the sins of Messiah ben David. Properly speaking, Messiah ben Joseph is Ephraim or Israel, the Ten Tribes of the Northern Kingdom. And Messiah ben David is Judah, the Southern Kingdom.

The sins of Judah had filled the Divine cup, and in God's judgment, the day had arrived for the removal of Judah. (Isa. 9:8) But according to I Kings 11:36, God had promised David that Judah, whose Tribe he had come from, would stay as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. Therefore, according to Isaiah 9:8, the final judgment that was supposed to come upon Judah fell upon Israel instead, and Messiah ben Joseph had to go instead of Judah, or Messiah ben David.

But Isaiah says in 53:9 that the Suffering Servant was without guile, and sinless. That's exactly what Israel was: Pure of the sins he died for, since they were the sins of Judah and not his. Messiah ben Joseph therefore, did not die for his sins but for the sins of Messiah ben David. Therefore, Israel was removed because of the sins of another. He was pierced so to speak, by the sins of Judah. The sacrifice of Israel or Messiah ben Joseph meant the salvation of Judah or Messiah ben David. That's why Zechariah in 12:10 says that they (Judah) shall look upon him (Israel) whom they (Judah) had pierced with their sins, and mourn for him (Israel) as the one who mourns for his firstborn.

Now, let me explain by way of an analogy how Israel, or Messiah ben Joseph, who was the Suffering Servant died innocent of the sins of Judah or Messiah ben David:

"A" and "B". "A" has committed a crime punishable with death, and "B", by mistake was condemned for that crime. It doesn't matter how evil is "B" in his life or how bad are his sins. The point is that he was condemned to die for the crime of "A". Therefore "B" was killed innocent and pure of the crimes and sins of "A". "A" got saved by the death of "B". So, "B" was the Suffering Servant that brought salvation to "A". Now matching the analogy to reality, "A" was Judah that pierced "B" with his crimes and sins.

Now, with the removal of Messiah ben Joseph, according to Psalm 78:67-70, Messiah be David occupied the place of Messiah ben Joseph, but as the Triumphant Servant with reference to the rest of Mankind, because of God's promise to Noah that humanity would never be destroyed again in an universal manner. (Gen. 8:21) The People-redeemer was the pledge and on his way in the near future with the choice of Abraham through Isaac. That's what sustains the world and allows it to keep going. Now, there is a small detail worthy keeping in mind. The blood of the Suffering Servant was shed once and for all. Now, Mankind is kept safe with the existence of Judah, the Triumphant Servant, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37.

Ben

 

[showme]

I think Ben is starting with a conclusion and working the Scripture to match the conclusioin. I simply don't concur with his thesis and can give an alternative conclusion from a different perspective.

Whereas Ben is somewhat imprecise with the use of the Law and the Testimony, I think it was written as meant. As for using a different perspective, I choose to use Yeshua's testimony as a light source to the interpretation. This would take into consideration, that the "Christian" church, being unable to discern the dublicity of Paul and his gospel of Lawlessness, would leave their stewardship of history in serious doubt. What is fairly obvious, is that in line with Is 6:10, they didn't understand Yeshua's parables, and therefore that testimony would remain fairly intact.

In keeping somewhat with Ben's train of thought, let us consider the genealogy of Mt 1 as somewhat suspect, and being as Yeshua's father's name was Joseph and not Judah, or Levi, let us assume that he is actually of the tribe of Joseph, which would fit in with Jeremiah 31:9, being that Ephraim, the son younger than Manassah, was called " My first born". This in line with the blessing of Jacob on Joseph, Genesis 49:22, "from there is the shepherd, the stone of Israel". Let us assume that when Jeremiah said in Jeremiah 31:8, that the Lord would bring back the remnant of Israel for the remotest parts of the earth, that this hasn't been completed as yet, since the fathers of the nations haven't confessed that they have inherited nothing but falshood (Jer 16:19). It won't be completed until the fulfilling of Ez 37:16, whereas two sticks, one for Judah....., and one stick for Joseph........, which will be combined, and will be ruled by one king, My servant David. Per Ben's Is 53:9 quote, the Suffering Servant would be of the tribe of Joseph, but would be the one without deceit, and one who had done no violence, Yeshua. And per Ben's Is 9:8, whereas Ephraim pride and arrogance, lead them to a downfall whereas finally Ephram, Manassah, and Judah are against each other. Moses blessing of Dt 33:17 points in the direction that Ephram will be lost in the U.S. per the description of 10 of thousands of Ephram to the ends of the earth, and Britain being the home of Manassah, as she is described as "thousands" pushed to the ends of the earth. These had fulfilled Is 9:20 whereas Britain fought the U.S., and Britain fough Israel, and Ez 37:19 is partially fulfilled in that the U.S. and Britain has helped Israel. Ephraim would fulfill prophecy by refusing to walk in the Law, just as the done by the U.S.

Let us then go to Zechariah 11:14, whereas the brotherhood has been broken, and this in the generation of Judas Iscariot (Mt 27:9). Whereas in Ez 37:19,the stick of Judah and the stick of Ephram will be one stick, with one king David, and the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel. This has yet to be completed. At that time, according to prophecy, Judah will accede over Ephraim.

According to Is 11:13-16, Ephraim (U.S.), Manassah (Britain), and Judah (Israel), will plunder the west and east and possess Edom, etc. and then in that day you will say, "Give thanks to the Lord". None of this has been completed.

 

[Ben Masada]

What is fairly obvious, is that in line with Is 6:10, they didn't understand Yeshua's parables, and therefore that testimony would remain fairly intact.

How do you understand Yeshua's parables, literally or on a metaphorical manner? IMHO, parables are, by their own nature to be interpreted metaphorically.

let us consider the genealogy of Mt 1 as somewhat suspect, and being as Yeshua's father's name was Joseph and not Judah, or Levi, let us assume that he is actually of the tribe of Joseph,

I hope you mean to say that Yeshua WAS and not is of the tribe of Joseph. He has been dead for about 2000 years. According to the Q'ohelet "the dead will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun. (Eccles. 9:6)

which would fit in with Jeremiah 31:9, being that Ephraim, the son younger than Manassah, was called " My first born". This in line with the blessing of Jacob on Joseph, Genesis 49:22, "from there is the shepherd, the stone of Israel".

Ephraim was called the firstborn because of the need to establish the concept of the two Messiahs. In this case, Messiah ben Joseph. But Judah remained as Messiah ben David. That's when the prophecy of the Scapegoat had its origin and got fulfilled in the sacrifice for Judah in an act of redemption.

Let us assume that when Jeremiah said in Jeremiah 31:8, that the Lord would bring back the remnant of Israel for the remotest parts of the earth, that this hasn't been completed as yet, since the fathers of the nations haven't confessed that they have inherited nothing but falshood (Jer 16:19).

If you read the previous verse (v. 7) that reference of Isaiah is to the new Israel, the House of Jacob from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1) This has been fulfilled since the new Israel was formed during those 130 years of moratorium when a few thousands from Ephrahim escaped the Assyrian transfer and joined Judah in the South. That's when the two sticks of Ezekiel 37:15,16 were put together. Jeremiah 16:19 has nothing to do with Israel vs Judah. That's a reference to the Gentiles who would join the Jewish People, according to Zechariah 8:23.

It won't be completed until the fulfilling of Ez 37:16, whereas two sticks, one for Judah, and one stick for Joseph, which will be combined, and will be ruled by one king, My servant David.

To apply Logic here, we cannot interpret literally that "the one king must be David." The right interpretation is that Judah, as the Jewish People would be at the head of the Government in the Land of Israel. Threfore it has been fulfilled as we speak.

Per Ben's Is 53:9 quote, the Suffering Servant would be of the tribe of Joseph, but would be the one without deceit, and one who had done no violence, Yeshua.

Your personal view of the above shows only that you did not understand the thread. I made it very clear that Israel, Messiah ben Joseph was without the sins that he had been sacrificed for, because the sins were those of Judah. It does not matter how criminal was Israel. He was sacrificed for the sins of Judah, Messiah ben David, and not his. Then, your willingness to bring Yeshua into this issue is based on Christian pre-conceived notions.

Moses blessing of Dt 33:17 points in the direction that Ephram will be lost in the U.S. per the description of 10 of thousands of Ephram to the ends of the earth, and Britain being the home of Manassah, as she is described as "thousands" pushed to the ends of the earth. These had fulfilled Is 9:20 whereas Britain fought the U.S., and Britain fough Israel, and Ez 37:19 is partially fulfilled in that the U.S. and Britain has helped Israel. Ephraim would fulfill prophecy by refusing to walk in the Law, just as the done by the U.S.

Deuteronomy 33:17 rather points to the spread of Ephraim throughout the earth, and there is nothing specifically to do with Britain and US. Likewise, Ezekiel 37:19 has not anything to do with Britain and US helping Israel, but only with the union of enough from Ephraim to represent Israel in their union with Judah.

Let us then go to Zechariah 11:14, whereas the brotherhood has been broken, and this in the generation of Judas Iscariot (Mt 27:9). Whereas in Ez 37:19,the stick of Judah and the stick of Ephram will be one stick, with one king David, and the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel. This has yet to be completed. At that time, according to prophecy, Judah will accede over Ephraim.

This has already been completed, and I have made it quite clear above. Zechariah 11:14, about the brotherhood being broken between Judah and Ephraim is depicted in Psalm 78:67-69 when the Tabernacle of Joseph was Divinely rejected and Judah confirmed as the new Israel that would remain as a People before the Lord forever, according Jeremiah 31:35-37.

According to Is 11:13-16, Ephraim (U.S.), Manassah (Britain), and Judah (Israel), will plunder the west and east and possess Edom, etc. and then in that day you will say, "Give thanks to the Lord". None of this has been completed.

All of these have been completed, as present history of monern Israel (Judah) is evidence of.

Ben

 

[showme]

How do you understand Yeshua's parables, literally or on a metaphorical manner? IMHO, parables are, by their own nature to be interpreted metaphorically.
Showme answer in red: Parables are simple uses of symbolism. Parables were used by Yeshua to fulfill the Scripture of Isaiah 6-9, “keep on listening, but do not perceive; keep on looking, but do not understand ….” This being the “Word of God” directed towards Israel, but which pertains to the Gentiles as well. This pertaining to the time it was spoken and to this day. This will last until “the cities are desolate,….yet there be a tenth portion in it,” (Is 6:11-13) The exception to use of symbolism being in where Yeshua specifically explained the parables to his disciples, such as in Mt 13:36-43, whereas then the “RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father”.
　
I hope you mean to say that Yeshua WAS and not is of the tribe of Joseph. He has been dead for about 2000 years. According to the Q'ohelet "the dead will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun. (Eccles. 9:6)
Is King David considered to be of the tribe of Judah, or is he described as being, WAS of the tribe of Judah? As for death, it can be transitory. 1 Kings 17:23
Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother and said, “Look, your son is alive!”

Ephraim was called the firstborn because of the need to establish the concept of the two Messiahs. In this case, Messiah ben Joseph. But Judah remained as Messiah ben David. That's when the prophecy of the Scapegoat had its origin and got fulfilled in the sacrifice for Judah in an act of redemption.
The term “Messiah” refers to be as “anointed of God”, whereas it refers to individual kings, judges, high priest, or prophets. What it doesn’t refer to is rebellious Judah or Israel as a people. As for Judah being redeemed, it is still under threat of attack, and will no doubt be fighting for its life again. None of this fulfilled during the era of the Babylon captivity. And it will need God’s help yet again. And this help has recently come from a land of whirring wings. Look to your war of 1967, and see who helped win that war. Isaiah 18:2
which sends envoys by sea in papyrus boats over the water. Go, swift messengers, to a people tall and smooth-skinned, to a people feared far and wide, an aggressive nation of strange speech, whose land is divided by rivers.

I will divide my response into two parts.

 

[showme]

If you read the previous verse (v. 7) that reference of Isaiah is to the new Israel, the House of Jacob from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1) This has been fulfilled since the new Israel was formed during those 130 years of moratorium when a few thousands from Ephrahim escaped the Assyrian transfer and joined Judah in the South. That's when the two sticks of Ezekiel 37:15,16 were put together. Jeremiah 16:19 has nothing to do with Israel vs Judah. That's a reference to the Gentiles who would join the Jewish People, according to Zechariah 8:23.

Showme response in red:

Jeremiah 16 is about Israel being cast out of “this place”, and about a time when they will be restored to their own land. Jeremiah 16:19 is simply about a simultaneous account where the time will be marked by the nations from the ends of the earth saying they have inherited nothing but falsehood. No such admission has taken place. And hunters have not effectively hunted down Israel from the countries where he has banished them, and “the clefts of the rocks”.(Jer 16:15-16)
As it was said in Isaiah 11:11, the Lord will recover for a “second time with his hand”, the remnant of his people. This has been fully accomplished, for the Sea of Egypt has not been divided into 7 streams. (Isaiah 11:15) Nor does Israel possess Edom.
　
To apply Logic here, we cannot interpret literally that "the one king must be David." The right interpretation is that Judah, as the Jewish People would be at the head of the Government in the Land of Israel. Threfore it has been fulfilled as we speak.
Your personal view of the above shows only that you did not understand the thread. I made it very clear that Israel, Messiah ben Joseph was without the sins that he had been sacrificed for, because the sins were those of Judah. It does not matter how criminal was Israel. He was sacrificed for the sins of Judah, Messiah ben David, and not his. Then, your willingness to bring Yeshua into this issue is based on Christian pre-conceived notions.

Judah may be chosen in place of Ephraim according to Scripture, but according to Isaiah 11:1, it will be an individual “from the stem of Jesse”, and not an entire “tribe of Judah, on whom the “Spirit of God” will rest. And it is at that time that the remnant will be recovered for a second time. (Is 11:11), and the “lion will eat straw like an ox”, and those who harass Judah will be cut off (Is 11:13).” Judah remains harassed to this day, and the lion eats meat to this day.

Deuteronomy 33:17 rather points to the spread of Ephraim throughout the earth, and there is nothing specifically to do with Britain and US. Likewise, Ezekiel 37:19 has not anything to do with Britain and US helping Israel, but only with the union of enough from Ephraim to represent Israel in their union with Judah.

Dt 33:17 refers to the tens of thousands of Ephraim from the ends of the earth, and not your exiled thousand from Assyria. Ephraim is described as being blessed with the “choice things of the earth and its fullness. The Lord is not speaking of the thousand living as exiles in Assyria. It is North America which has this blessing, and its’ people are from the ends of the earth, and according to the Lord in Ez 37:16, Judah and Ephraim will be acting in unison.

This has already been completed, and I have made it quite clear above. Zechariah 11:14, about the brotherhood being broken between Judah and Ephraim is depicted in Psalm 78:67-69 when the Tabernacle of Joseph was Divinely rejected and Judah confirmed as the new Israel that would remain as a People before the Lord forever, according Jeremiah 31:35-37.
All of these have been completed, as present history of monern Israel (Judah) is evidence of.
Ben[/QUOTE]

Your reference from Ze 11:14 is taken out of context, and is in reference to the lost tribes of Israel and the jews being in conflict in the sense that one is supposedly living under the Law and one is not. Ze 11 is about 3 shepherds (Ze 11:8), two who were used to shepherd the “flock doomed to slaughter”. This is in reference to the schism caused between Judah and the lost tribes of Ephraim by two jewish shepherds called Simon bar Jonas, and Saul. And unless the sun has fallen out the sky, the Lord will never reject the house of Israel, nor the house of Judah. (Jer 31:35) But you can be assured that Israel will be repaid for their iniquity. (Jer 16:18)
As for the present history of Judah, it is incomplete. Ze 14:1-11,”…for Jerusalem will dwell in security….(Ze 14:11), and the Lord will be king over all the earth:..(Ze 14:9). This hasn’t happened. For half the city has not been exiled, nor the rest of the people cut off. (Ze 14:2) The battle is not over.

 

[Ben Masada]

How do you understand Yeshua's parables, literally or on a metaphorical manner? IMHO, parables are, by their own nature to be interpreted metaphorically.

Showme answer in red: Parables are simple uses of symbolism. Parables were used by Yeshua to fulfill the Scripture of Isaiah 6-9, “keep on listening, but do not perceive; keep on looking, but do not understand ….” This being the “Word of God” directed towards Israel, but which pertains to the Gentiles as well. This pertaining to the time it was spoken and to this day. This will last until “the cities are desolate,….yet there be a tenth portion in it,” (Is 6:11-13) The exception to use of symbolism being in where Yeshua specifically explained the parables to his disciples, such as in Mt 13:36-43, whereas then the “RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father”.

Isaiah 6 is about his nomination for the mission to Israel, the Northern Kingdom. They would hear but could not understand why a prophet from Judah would prophesy to them about calamities to come.
　
I hope you mean to say that Yeshua WAS and not is of the tribe of Joseph. He has been dead for about 2000 years. According to the Q'ohelet "the dead will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun. (Eccles. 9:6)

Is King David considered to be of the tribe of Judah, or is he described as being, WAS of the tribe of Judah? As for death, it can be transitory.

1 Kings 17:23 Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother and said, “Look, your son is alive!”

David WAS from the Tribe of Judah. Today he is nothing; he is dead. And death is not temporary. Read Job 10:21 and 2 Sam. 12:23. David himself did not believe death was temporary.

Ephraim was called the firstborn because of the need to establish the concept of the two Messiahs. In this case, Messiah ben Joseph. But Judah remained as Messiah ben David. That's when the prophecy of the Scapegoat had its origin and got fulfilled in the sacrifice for Judah in an act of redemption.

The term “Messiah” refers to be as “anointed of God”, whereas it refers to individual kings, judges, high priest, or prophets. What it doesn’t refer to is rebellious Judah or Israel as a people. As for Judah being redeemed, it is still under threat of attack, and will no doubt be fighting for its life again. None of this fulfilled during the era of the Babylon captivity. And it will need God’s help yet again. And this help has recently come from a land of whirring wings. Look to your war of 1967, and see who helped win that war.

Isaiah 18:2 which sends envoys by sea in papyrus boats over the water. Go, swift messengers, to a people tall and smooth-skinned, to a people feared far and wide, an aggressive nation of strange speech, whose land is divided by rivers.

I believe you did not understand the thread. But anyways, I agree with you that "Messiah" means "the anointed of God" as we have in Habakkuk 3:13 this: "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." Now, you can see that Messiah = Israel.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

If you read the previous verse (v. 7) that reference of Isaiah is to the new Israel, the House of Jacob from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1) This has been fulfilled since the new Israel was formed during those 130 years of moratorium when a few thousands from Ephrahim escaped the Assyrian transfer and joined Judah in the South. That's when the two sticks of Ezekiel 37:15,16 were put together. Jeremiah 16:19 has nothing to do with Israel vs Judah. That's a reference to the Gentiles who would join the Jewish People, according to Zechariah 8:23.

Jeremiah 16 is about Israel being cast out of “this place”, and about a time when they will be restored to their own land. Jeremiah 16:19 is simply about a simultaneous account where the time will be marked by the nations from the ends of the earth saying they have inherited nothing but falsehood. No such admission has taken place. And hunters have not effectively hunted down Israel from the countries where he has banished them, and “the clefts of the rocks”.(Jer 16:15-16)

As it was said in Isaiah 11:11, the Lord will recover for a “second time with his hand”, the remnant of his people. This has been fully accomplished, for the Sea of Egypt has not been divided into 7 streams. (Isaiah 11:15) Nor does Israel possess Edom.

You have all the right in the world to your opinion, but do not forget that I see here a Gentile trying to teach Judaism to the Jew. You are simply being too literal, even in the hope that the Nile river will divide into 7 streams, according to Isaiah 11:15.
　
To apply Logic here, we cannot interpret literally that "the one king must be David." The right interpretation is that Judah, as the Jewish People would be at the head of the Government in the Land of Israel. Threfore it has been fulfilled as we speak. Your personal view of the above shows only that you did not understand the thread. I made it very clear that Israel, Messiah ben Joseph was without the sins that he had been sacrificed for, because the sins were those of Judah. It does not matter how criminal was Israel. He was sacrificed for the sins of Judah, Messiah ben David, and not his. Then, your willingness to bring Yeshua into this issue is based on Christian pre-conceived notions.

Judah may be chosen in place of Ephraim according to Scripture, but according to Isaiah 11:1, it will be an individual “from the stem of Jesse”, and not an entire “tribe of Judah, on whom the “Spirit of God” will rest. And it is at that time that the remnant will be recovered for a second time. (Is 11:11), and the “lion will eat straw like an ox”, and those who harass Judah will be cut off (Is 11:13).” Judah remains harassed to this day, and the lion eats meat to this day.

Tell me something, when the text in Exodus 4:22,23 says, "Israel is My son; so, let My son go that he may serve Me." Is it talking about an individual or the People of Israel?

Deuteronomy 33:17 rather points to the spread of Ephraim throughout the earth, and there is nothing specifically to do with Britain and US. Likewise, Ezekiel 37:19 has not anything to do with Britain and US helping Israel, but only with the union of enough from Ephraim to represent Israel in their union with Judah.

Dt 33:17 refers to the tens of thousands of Ephraim from the ends of the earth, and not your exiled thousand from Assyria. Ephraim is described as being blessed with the “choice things of the earth and its fullness. The Lord is not speaking of the thousand living as exiles in Assyria. It is North America which has this blessing, and its’ people are from the ends of the earth, and according to the Lord in Ez 37:16, Judah and Ephraim will be acting in unison.

Many Christians say that the lost Tribes of the North are in England, Canada, USA, and the Mormons say that they are the ones. Do you believe them? Please, there is a much simpler way to join God's Covenant with Israel, according to Isaiah 56:1-8. That's by conversion to Judaism, according to Halachah or Jewish Law.

This has already been completed, and I have made it quite clear above. Zechariah 11:14, about the brotherhood being broken between Judah and Ephraim is depicted in Psalm 78:67-69 when the Tabernacle of Joseph was Divinely rejected and Judah confirmed as the new Israel that would remain as a People before the Lord forever, according Jeremiah 31:35-37. All of these have been completed, as present history of monern Israel (Judah) is evidence of.

Your reference from Ze 11:14 is taken out of context, and is in reference to the lost tribes of Israel and the jews being in conflict in the sense that one is supposedly living under the Law and one is not. Ze 11 is about 3 shepherds (Ze 11:8), two who were used to shepherd the “flock doomed to slaughter”. This is in reference to the schism caused between Judah and the lost tribes of Ephraim by two jewish shepherds called Simon bar Jonas, and Saul. And unless the sun has fallen out the sky, the Lord will never reject the house of Israel, nor the house of Judah. (Jer 31:35) But you can be assured that Israel will be repaid for their iniquity. (Jer 16:18)

As for the present history of Judah, it is incomplete. Ze 14:1-11,”…for Jerusalem will dwell in security….(Ze 14:11), and the Lord will be king over all the earth:..(Ze 14:9). This hasn’t happened. For half the city has not been exiled, nor the rest of the people cut off. (Ze 14:2) The battle is not over.

There will be no recovery of the Ten Tribes. The Tribal system has been abolished, according to Ezekiel 37:22. Read Hosea 8:8. "Israel is swalled up; he is now among the nations, a thing of no value." (Hosea 8:8) "Israel has disappeared, like foam upon the waters." (Hosea 10:7)

Ben

 

[showme]

How do you understand Yeshua's parables, literally or on a metaphorical manner? IMHO, parables are, by their own nature to be interpreted metaphorically.


Isaiah 6 is about his nomination for the mission to Israel, the Northern Kingdom. They would hear but could not understand why a prophet from Judah would prophesy to them about calamities to come.

Showme's response in blue:

Isaiah not only spoke to “Israel, the Northern Kingdom”, but his message was the “living word of God”, which does not die.
Other prophets had the same message as Isaiah, and they spoke to all of Israel:

Psalm 78:2
I will open my mouth with a parable; I will utter hidden things, things from of old—

Proverbs 1:6
for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise.

Ezekiel 17:2
“Son of man, set forth an allegory and tell it to the Israelites as a parable.

Matthew 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
　
I hope you mean to say that Yeshua WAS and not is of the tribe of Joseph. He has been dead for about 2000 years. According to the Q'ohelet "the dead will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun. (Eccles. 9:6)


David WAS from the Tribe of Judah. Today he is nothing; he is dead. And death is not temporary. Read Job 10:21 and 2 Sam. 12:23. David himself did not believe death was temporary.

Elijah was able to raise the dead, therefore death is not absolute.

1 Kings 17:22
The LORD heard Elijah’s cry, and the boy’s life returned to him, and he lived.

Ephraim was called the firstborn because of the need to establish the concept of the two Messiahs. In this case, Messiah ben Joseph. But Judah remained as Messiah ben David. That's when the prophecy of the Scapegoat had its origin and got fulfilled in the sacrifice for Judah in an act of redemption.


I believe you did not understand the thread. But anyways, I agree with you that "Messiah" means "the anointed of God" as we have in Habakkuk 3:13 this: "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." Now, you can see that Messiah = Israel.

Ben

At the time of Habakkuk, the House of Israel was already crushed by the Assyrians. Habakkuk was talking to the House of Judah, and was talking about how the Chaldeans, would crush Judah because Judah had perverted justice. Habakkuk 3:13 was with regards to the distant future. The distant future would be when “Thy people” would be saved again from the “Chaldeans”, which could be described as the region encompassing parts of Iraq and Iran. The 1967 Israel war was with Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. The “Chaldeans” have yet to attack, and “the day of the Lord’s anger” has yet to be fulfilled (Ze 2:3). Gaza has yet to be abandoned (Ze 2:4), and coast has not been made into pastures for the remnant of Judah (Ze 2:7) Habakkuk and Zephaniah aren’t historical novels, they are prophecies of God, which have not been completed.

 

[radarmark]

Hew, now I get it. I even read Revelations as history... sorry showme.

 

[showme]

Quote:
Originally Posted by showme
If you read the previous verse (v. 7) that reference of Isaiah is to the new Israel, the House of Jacob from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1) This has been fulfilled since the new Israel was formed during those 130 years of moratorium when a few thousands from Ephrahim escaped the Assyrian transfer and joined Judah in the South. That's when the two sticks of Ezekiel 37:15,16 were put together. Jeremiah 16:19 has nothing to do with Israel vs Judah. That's a reference to the Gentiles who would join the Jewish People, according to Zechariah 8:23.
Quote:
Jeremiah 16 is about Israel being cast out of “this place”, and about a time when they will be restored to their own land. Jeremiah 16:19 is simply about a simultaneous account where the time will be marked by the nations from the ends of the earth saying they have inherited nothing but falsehood. No such admission has taken place. And hunters have not effectively hunted down Israel from the countries where he has banished them, and “the clefts of the rocks”.(Jer 16:15-16)
Quote:
As it was said in Isaiah 11:11, the Lord will recover for a “second time with his hand”, the remnant of his people. This has been fully accomplished, for the Sea of Egypt has not been divided into 7 streams. (Isaiah 11:15) Nor does Israel possess Edom.
You have all the right in the world to your opinion, but do not forget that I see here a Gentile trying to teach Judaism to the Jew. You are simply being too literal, even in the hope that the Nile river will divide into 7 streams, according to Isaiah 11:15.

Showme latest response in blue:
And was Melchizedek a non jew, yet Abraham considered him a high priest of God. Maybe one should look to what is said, and not to the genealogy of the one saying it. As for the Sea of Egypt not being divided in a literal way, please explain the non literal explanation. You can also explain how in Is 11:12, how he will assemble the banished ones of Israel from the islands of the sea…from the four corners of the earth, and how Judah will possess Edom.
Genesis 14:18
Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High,
　
To apply Logic here, we cannot interpret literally that "the one king must be David." The right interpretation is that Judah, as the Jewish People would be at the head of the Government in the Land of Israel. Threfore it has been fulfilled as we speak. Your personal view of the above shows only that you did not understand the thread. I made it very clear that Israel, Messiah ben Joseph was without the sins that he had been sacrificed for, because the sins were those of Judah. It does not matter how criminal was Israel. He was sacrificed for the sins of Judah, Messiah ben David, and not his. Then, your willingness to bring Yeshua into this issue is based on Christian pre-conceived notions.
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Judah may be chosen in place of Ephraim according to Scripture, but according to Isaiah 11:1, it will be an individual “from the stem of Jesse”, and not an entire “tribe of Judah, on whom the “Spirit of God” will rest. And it is at that time that the remnant will be recovered for a second time. (Is 11:11), and the “lion will eat straw like an ox”, and those who harass Judah will be cut off (Is 11:13).” Judah remains harassed to this day, and the lion eats meat to this day.


Tell me something, when the text in Exodus 4:22,23 says, "Israel is My son; so, let My son go that he may serve Me." Is it talking about an individual or the People of Israel?
Israel in the text was referred to as “My first born”. In the same vein as Ephraim was declared “first born”, although he was not the first born. As in the same vein as in Ex 4:25, Zepporah was declared a bridegroom by blood because of her act of faith in circumcising her son. One is born of God when they are circumcised of heart, and become a son of Abraham by the same faith Abraham pleased the Lord. Abraham was not a son of Judah, and therefore not a jew, Abraham was a son of God, because he did the will of God. Ephraim, as in the House of Israel, was cut off when he rebelled, and the same applies to Judah. Atonement is meant for those that are cut off. Being cut off applies to those cut off from the presence of God, this applies to both Judah and Israel. The term Israel can be used as a name place, the name of Jacob, the combined name of the House of Judah and the House of Israel, or simply the House of Israel. In this instance, the reference cited would be to the literal descendants of Jacob.

Deuteronomy 33:17 rather points to the spread of Ephraim throughout the earth, and there is nothing specifically to do with Britain and US. Likewise, Ezekiel 37:19 has not anything to do with Britain and US helping Israel, but only with the union of enough from Ephraim to represent Israel in their union with Judah.
Showme’s response in blue:
With respect to Dt 33:17, the U.S. would be associated with the “ends of the earth” with respect to Israel. With respect to Ez 37:19, the only one presently helping the “nation of Israel”, which is the House of Judah, is the U.S. and possibly Britain.
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Dt 33:17 refers to the tens of thousands of Ephraim from the ends of the earth, and not your exiled thousand from Assyria. Ephraim is described as being blessed with the “choice things of the earth and its fullness. The Lord is not speaking of the thousand living as exiles in Assyria. It is North America which has this blessing, and its’ people are from the ends of the earth, and according to the Lord in Ez 37:16, Judah and Ephraim will be acting in unison.


Many Christians say that the lost Tribes of the North are in England, Canada, USA, and the Mormons say that they are the ones. Do you believe them? Please, there is a much simpler way to join God's Covenant with Israel, according to Isaiah 56:1-8. That's by conversion to Judaism, according to Halachah or Jewish Law.

Isaiah 56:1-8 says nothing about “Halachah or Jewish Law”. It refers to preserving justice and doing righteousness and profaning the Sabbath, and holding fast to God’s covenant.What Isaiah says in Isaiah 3:12, as regards your oral tradition, is that, “those who guide you lead you astray”. And in Isaiah 56:11, “they are shepherds who have no understanding, they have all turned to their own way,..” Judah is not blessed because anything they have done, but because of their father Abraham. The same applies to the House of Israel. And as God said to Abraham, in Genesis 15:5,” count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” Genesis 18:18, “in him all the nations of the earth shall be blessed..” With respect to the house of Judah, 6,000,000 live in the U.S. and around 5,000,000 live in Israel, with about 3,000,000 living somewhere else. This is a lot less than the number of the stars of heaven. According to Jer 31:31-35, the covenant with House of Israel, nor with the house of Judah, will be broken as long as there are stars for light in the night. Israel is lost in among the nations (Jer 16:15), but she is not forgotten, and they will be hunted down.

This has already been completed, and I have made it quite clear above. Zechariah 11:14, about the brotherhood being broken between Judah and Ephraim is depicted in Psalm 78:67-69 when the Tabernacle of Joseph was Divinely rejected and Judah confirmed as the new Israel that would remain as a People before the Lord forever, according Jeremiah 31:35-37. All of these have been completed, as present history of monern Israel (Judah) is evidence of.

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Your reference from Ze 11:14 is taken out of context, and is in reference to the lost tribes of Israel and the jews being in conflict in the sense that one is supposedly living under the Law and one is not. Ze 11 is about 3 shepherds (Ze 11:8), two who were used to shepherd the “flock doomed to slaughter”. This is in reference to the schism caused between Judah and the lost tribes of Ephraim by two jewish shepherds called Simon bar Jonas, and Saul. And unless the sun has fallen out the sky, the Lord will never reject the house of Israel, nor the house of Judah. (Jer 31:35) But you can be assured that Israel will be repaid for their iniquity. (Jer 16:18)

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As for the present history of Judah, it is incomplete. Ze 14:1-11,”…for Jerusalem will dwell in security….(Ze 14:11), and the Lord will be king over all the earth:..(Ze 14:9). This hasn’t happened. For half the city has not been exiled, nor the rest of the people cut off. (Ze 14:2) The battle is not over.

There will be no recovery of the Ten Tribes. The Tribal system has been abolished, according to Ezekiel 37:22. Read Hosea 8:8. "Israel is swalled up; he is now among the nations, a thing of no value." (Hosea 8:8) "Israel has disappeared, like foam upon the waters." (Hosea 10:7)

Ben
Israel was banished into “all the countries”, she was lost among the nations (Jer 16:15). Hosea 10:7 regards being “cut off”, which is what happens when one does not circumcise their hearts and do not keep God’s covenant. The same happens to Judah as well. Hosea 10:8 is with regard to the high places of Aven, the sin of Israel, being destroyed, for Israel went after false gods, as the House of Judah no doubt still has her own false gods.
Jeremiah 4:4
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, or my wrath will flare up and burn like fire because of the evil you have done— burn with no one to quench it.

 

[Ben Masada]

At the time of Habakkuk, the House of Israel was already crushed by the Assyrians. Habakkuk was talking to the House of Judah, and was talking about how the Chaldeans, would crush Judah because Judah had perverted justice. Habakkuk 3:13 was with regards to the distant future. The distant future would be when “Thy people” would be saved again from the “Chaldeans”, which could be described as the region encompassing parts of Iraq and Iran. The 1967 Israel war was with Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. The “Chaldeans” have yet to attack, and “the day of the Lord’s anger” has yet to be fulfilled (Ze 2:3). Gaza has yet to be abandoned (Ze 2:4), and coast has not been made into pastures for the remnant of Judah (Ze 2:7) Habakkuk and Zephaniah aren’t historical novels, they are prophecies of God, which have not been completed.

Right. Habakkuk was referring to the House of Judah as the anointed one of the Lord, aka, the Messiah. But not to be fulfilled in the distant future. It was fulfilled when Israel was Divinely rejected and Judah confirmed, according to Psalm 78:67-69.

Now, with regards to the war of 1967 of the Arabs against Israel, Iraq did take part by sending a batallion with tanks in order to enjoy a piece of the pie to destroy Israel from the face of the earth. But the Lord was with us;
as it was to expect, we crushed them all. Therefore, there is no more to expect a further attack from the Caldeans. Perhaps from Iran, but we will take care of them too. Bezrat haShem. I mean, with the help of God. And with regards to Gaza, we have abandoned it too. We simply use it for security.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben
Israel was banished into “all the countries”, she was lost among the nations (Jer 16:15). Hosea 10:7 regards being “cut off”, which is what happens when one does not circumcise their hearts and do not keep God’s covenant. The same happens to Judah as well. Hosea 10:8 is with regard to the high places of Aven, the sin of Israel, being destroyed, for Israel went after false gods, as the House of Judah no doubt still has her own false gods.
Jeremiah 4:4
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, or my wrath will flare up and burn like fire because of the evil you have done— burn with no one to quench it.

Nevertheless, of the other nations, the Lord will eventually make an end of them; but of Israel (Judah) He will only chastise as we deserve. That's in Jeremiah 46:28. Why? Because the Lord has promised David in I Kings 11:36 that his Tribe - Judah - would remain as a lamp in Jerusalem forever. Then, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37, Israel is supposed to remain as a People before the Lord forever.

And, yes, Israel was banished forever as to be swallowed up among the nations as to become a thing of no value. (Hosea 8:8) But the exile of Judah was only temporary; 70 years, no more. We have been confirmed and brought back. (Psalm 78:67-69) Baruch haShem - Thanks God.
Ben

 

[showme]

Right. Habakkuk was referring to the House of Judah as the anointed one of the Lord, aka, the Messiah. But not to be fulfilled in the distant future. It was fulfilled when Israel was Divinely rejected and Judah confirmed, according to Psalm 78:67-69.

Response by showme in blue:
Israel has never been Divinely rejected. They like Judah were sent into exile for their sins. Per Jer 31:35-37, "...fixed order of the moon...if this fixed order departs.. Then the offspring of Israel shall cease..." This was addressed to the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Jer 31:31). The moon is still in its fixed order.

Now, with regards to the war of 1967 of the Arabs against Israel, Iraq did take part by sending a batallion with tanks in order to enjoy a piece of the pie to destroy Israel from the face of the earth. But the Lord was with us;
as it was to expect, we crushed them all. Therefore, there is no more to expect a further attack from the Caldeans. Perhaps from Iran, but we will take care of them too. Bezrat haShem. I mean, with the help of God. And with regards to Gaza, we have abandoned it too. We simply use it for security.

Ben

With regards to Gaza, it was not Judah that abandons Gaza, for Judah will use it for pasturing flocks. (Zeph 2:7) All is not finished. Moab, which is located in present Jordan is not like Sodom, and remnant of God's people have not plundered them. (Ze 2:8-10) The nations haven't been gathered, nor God's indignation poured out upon them (Ze 3:8) The story is not finished.

 

[Ben Masada]

With regards to Gaza, it was not Judah that abandons Gaza, for Judah will use it for pasturing flocks. (Zeph 2:7) All is not finished. Moab, which is located in present Jordan is not like Sodom, and remnant of God's people have not plundered them. (Ze 2:8-10) The nations haven't been gathered, nor God's indignation poured out upon them (Ze 3:8) The story is not finished.

But, worry not your mind Showme, as long as we remain as a People before the Lord, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37, I have no fear. The Lord, by means of His People, will take care of any serious threat.

 

[Princely]

But, worry not your mind Showme, as long as we remain as a People before the Lord, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37, I have no fear. The Lord, by means of His People, will take care of any serious threat.

The land of Israel and those who call themselves Jews are impostors. The proof is in all the calamity and grief they have had to endure. The Israel the world knows is surrounded by people who hate them. These are not people who turn there backs and fear Israel as the Lord said he would make their enemies if they served Him. God is not with them, He is with those who observe what is right and just and serve Him.

Thus says the Lord ; You shall worship the Lord your God, and I will bless your bread and your water; and I will take sickness away from among you. No one shall miscarry or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days. I will send my terror in front of you, and will throw into confusion all the people against whom you shall come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you.

That doesn't sound like the Israel of this world. IMPOSTORS.


Psalm; When a man reveres the Lord, He will teach him the way he should choose. He will abide in prosperity, and his descendants shall inherit the land. The friendship of the Lord is with those who revere him, and he makes his covenant known to them.

I am the bread of life. I'm the bread for a man to eat and never die. I myself am the living bread. Anyone who feeds on me will have life because of me.

 

[Ben Masada]

The land of Israel and those who call themselves Jews are impostors. The proof is in all the calamity and grief they have had to endure. The Israel the world knows is surrounded by people who hate them. These are not people who turn there backs and fear Israel as the Lord said he would make their enemies if they served Him. God is not with them, He is with those who observe what is right and just and serve Him.

Thus says the Lord ; You shall worship the Lord your God, and I will bless your bread and your water; and I will take sickness away from among you. No one shall miscarry or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days. I will send my terror in front of you, and will throw into confusion all the people against whom you shall come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you.

That doesn't sound like the Israel of this world. IMPOSTORS.


Psalm; When a man reveres the Lord, He will teach him the way he should choose. He will abide in prosperity, and his descendants shall inherit the land. The friendship of the Lord is with those who revere him, and he makes his covenant known to them.

I am the bread of life. I'm the bread for a man to eat and never die. I myself am the living bread. Anyone who feeds on me will have life because of me.

Sorry Princely, but this time, you took the chance to promote Replacement Theology from the viewpoint of literal interpretation and anti-Jewish animosity.

Ben