The God of all

[Thomas]

Ben's contributions demonstrates the continuing failure of some people to comprehend the full import of the advent of Christianity.

(But full marks for inventiveness.)

Acts 10 provides ample evidence to show that the Revelation made known in Christ was not a 'Jewish revelation', any more than Christianity is a 'Jewish heresy'. The conversion of Cornelius (A Roman solider), and furthermore the recognition of Cornelius "A religious man, and fearing God with all his house, giving much alms to the people, and always praying to God" (v2) shows a piety that was naturally conformed to the New Covenant in Christ, to love God and love one's neighbour.

"While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. And the faithful of the circumcision, who came with Peter, were astonished, for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also." (v44-45)
Two things here, the first is the providential intervention of the Holy Spirit prior to baptism, and secondly, the 'astonishment' of the 'faithful of the circumcision', that is Jews who professed a faith in Christ, that 'the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also'.

In short, Ben will just have to come to terms with the fact that if the One True God is, indeed, the One True God, then He is not the sole possesion of the seed of Abraham.

In fact, I would draw Ben's attention to the wisdom of the father of the Prodigal Son:
"But he said to him: Son, thou art always with me, and all I have is thine. But it was fit that we should make merry and be glad, for this thy brother was dead and is come to life again; he was lost, and is found"
Luke 15:31-32

God bless,

Thomas

 

[radarmark]

VG, Thomas... as far as it goes. But neither is the "One True God" the possession of Traditional Christianity. G!d is a creative principle that cannot and willnot be limited by our concepts, precepts, ieas, or words. As such Sh! is manifest in everyone and everything. Anthropology, archeology, mythology, philosophy have something to say in addition to theology.

That beyond is that beyond. Period. To claim understanding or possession is the right of every Religion and every person. But they all cannot be empirically correct.

 

[Thomas]

VG, Thomas... as far as it goes.

I know ... I just thought I'd have a bit of fun with Ben, which is why I posted here, and not under 'Judaism'.

G!d is a creative principle that cannot and willnot be limited by our concepts, precepts, ieas, or words.

Agreed ... as far as it goes (), God is most accessible through those concepts, etc., in and through which He chooses to reveal Himself.

As such Sh! is manifest in everyone and everything. Anthropology, archeology, mythology, philosophy have something to say in addition to theology.

Agreed, but theology is (or should be) central — the First Philosophy of the Ancients — whereas the other sciences are peripheral.

The idea of the 'sacred', and indeed the sabbath, is largely misunderstood. It's a time for 'one-on-one' as it were, when everything else is put aside and we concentrate on 'the one thing necessary'.

To claim understanding or possession is the right of every Religion and every person.

I would dispute that. There are too many man-made 'religions' around today in which God is obliged to conform to human nature, rather than the other way round.

To be able to say or conceive the concept at all is a gift and a grace, it would be quite possible for human nature to be contained with finite horizons (Deism does just that), whereas human nature is intrinsically open to the infinite ... it seems to me the day man explains God away, is the day man limits his own possibility of being.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[radarmark]

I would dispute that. There are too many man-made 'religions' around today in which God is obliged to conform to human nature, rather than the other way round.

To be able to say or conceive the concept at all is a gift and a grace, it would be quite possible for human nature to be contained with finite horizons (Deism does just that), whereas human nature is intrinsically open to the infinite ... it seems to me the day man explains God away, is the day man limits his own possibility of being.

God bless,

Thomas

Thanks, Thomas. Yes, theology and ontology and cosmology (all parts of the "first philosophy" or classical metaphysics) should take presidence. My bad that I did not put it that way.

Yes, there are far too many Religions around. Because they have the right to claim truth does not make them true (as I said).

The concept of G!d cannot be circumscribed by either the mind of man or the physics of science. Creation, Revelation, and Redemption cannot ever be explained away in my humble opinion, any more than the D!vine.

I think we radically agree (for different reasons, I hypothecize).

 

[wil]

A religious man, and fearing God with all his house, giving much alms to the people, and always praying to God" (v2) shows a piety that was naturally conformed to the New Covenant in Christ, to love God and love one's neighbour.

Yes fear shows love...

Naw... love shows love. We have no need to 'fear' G!d. Hasn't that original Hebrew been more appropriately translated as 'respect' and fear is misused??

God is most accessible through those concepts, etc., in and through which He chooses to reveal Himself.

Most accessible to YOU Thomas. G!d has been revealing himself to his creations since time began.... It appears Christianity and Jesus is YOUR chosen path to Christ Consciousness (paul.."Put on the mind of Christ") and G!d. Others will find that Bhuddism or Taoism is their 'way' or that Judaism or Islam makes the connection to the ONE most accessible to them. (or Wiccan/Pagan/Satanism...yikes)

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

Ben's contributions demonstrates the continuing failure of some people to comprehend the full import of the advent of Christianity.

(But full marks for inventiveness.)

Acts 10 provides ample evidence to show that the Revelation made known in Christ was not a 'Jewish revelation', any more than Christianity is a 'Jewish heresy'. The conversion of Cornelius (A Roman solider), and furthermore the recognition of Cornelius "A religious man, and fearing God with all his house, giving much alms to the people, and always praying to God" (v2) shows a piety that was naturally conformed to the New Covenant in Christ, to love God and love one's neighbour.

"While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. And the faithful of the circumcision, who came with Peter, were astonished, for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also." (v44-45)
Two things here, the first is the providential intervention of the Holy Spirit prior to baptism, and secondly, the 'astonishment' of the 'faithful of the circumcision', that is Jews who professed a faith in Christ, that 'the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also'.

In short, Ben will just have to come to terms with the fact that if the One True God is, indeed, the One True God, then He is not the sole possesion of the seed of Abraham.

In fact, I would draw Ben's attention to the wisdom of the father of the Prodigal Son:
"But he said to him: Son, thou art always with me, and all I have is thine. But it was fit that we should make merry and be glad, for this thy brother was dead and is come to life again; he was lost, and is found"
Luke 15:31-32

God bless,

Thomas

In the effort to share - not to judge....

I see the whole thing as further proof that judgement about matters we CANNOT completely understand is antiproductive.
If we force ourselves out of the "groups" we have become comfortable in, and seek Truth for the sake of Truth, EVERYONE benefits - and not just "Us"

and especially, when trying to understand a belief system which arose from within another - understanding BOTH equally is where value is to be found...
edit: and of course, if you find understanding dragging you through even more religions -one shouldnt be surprised...

 

[Thomas]

You're always a pleasure, Mr R!

Yes, theology and ontology and cosmology (all parts of the "first philosophy" or classical metaphysics) should take presidence. My bad that I did not put it that way.

But we know what we meant, don't we?

Interestingly, it was ontology and cosmology that drew me to theology, and I am sure we are agreed that the Ancients used 'theology' to express something far wider in scope than denominations will often allow.

I still need to knuckle down with 'meontology' — 'beyond being/beyond ontology' — have you come across the term?

The concept of G!d cannot be circumscribed by either the mind of man or the physics of science. Creation, Revelation, and Redemption cannot ever be explained away in my humble opinion, any more than the D!vine.:roll eyes:

I've started reading Karl Rahner, who said theology is anthropology, anthropology is theology, or something akin ... in short there are only two mysteries, God and man, both of whom open into the infinite ...

I think we radically agree (for different reasons, I hypothecize).

So do I ... I'll see your and raise you a

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

Hasn't that original Hebrew been more appropriately translated as 'respect' and fear is misused??

I rather think it's we who don't properly understand the concept of 'fear' in religious terms. I don't think love cuts it quite the same way.

Or put another way, I think the contemporary understanding of 'love' is a long way short of what the Biblical term implies.

Most accessible to YOU Thomas.

Well by nature some will be more insightful than others ... but then insight is not the only measure.

G!d has been revealing himself to his creations since time began...

Indirectly, yes ... but through the Great Traditions the Transcendent makes Itself known.

It appears Christianity and Jesus is YOUR chosen path to Christ Consciousness (paul.."Put on the mind of Christ") and G!d. Others will find that Bhuddism or Taoism is their 'way' or that Judaism or Islam makes the connection to the ONE most accessible to them. (or Wiccan/Pagan/Satanism...yikes)

Again, nice sentiment, but I think it founders in the detail. Too often 'Christ consciousness' is a cover-name for 'my ego', and then 'wiccan/paganism' is largely a post-Romantic construct, an invented religion, and of course Satanism, which by definition is a rejection of the Divine, is just nonsense...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Hi BMS —
In the spirit of dialogue ...

I see the whole thing as further proof that judgement about matters we CANNOT completely understand is anti productive.

Is that not somewhat a rather jaundiced view? The Great Traditions have been an inspiration in every field of human endeavour ... Literature, music, art, architecture ... I think the world would be a lot duller, and a lot more utilitarian, without it.

And without Revelation, our understandings would be even less ... with the data of Revelation, we can understand much more.

I agree that the histories are not quite so glorious, and in some cases bloody awful, but then that falls far short of the central message, and I think to ditch the message because of certain events is a baby/bathwater scenario?

The evidence from recent secular cultures has put an end to that old saw about religion being the cause of conflict. Stalin alone managed to kill more than all the world's religions put together, and in a fraction of the time ... then you have Pol Pot ...

If we force ourselves out of the "groups" we have become comfortable in, and seek Truth for the sake of Truth, EVERYONE benefits - and not just "Us"

But then does not 'Truth' become a matter of personal opinion? What about Revelation (i.e., where does God fit in to this plan?)

Without the data from those 'groups', would we even have any frame of reference to discuss?

And I think it's an ideal, but somewhat unrealistic. Not everyone is a 'seeker', and many are happy to 'follow' — true religions have to be universal in the sense they are for all, and not the few.

... edit: and of course, if you find understanding dragging you through even more religions -one shouldnt be surprised...

Yes ... and no ... again, it depends on what you're looking for. I know some in whom being a seeker is more important than finding the thing sought for!

And again, understanding one religion is more than a lifetime's work ... understanding all, in any meaningful depth, I would suggest is impossible, as really, understanding is 'standing under', and realising a religion in actuality means just that, you cannot serve two masters, you cannot ride two horses ... some make a profession of sitting on the fence and criticising everything from without, without ever really understanding anything.

The closest I've come to a 'universal commentary' is the Perennial Tradition, championed by the likes of Guénon, Schuon, et al (Radarmark knows them, too). I don't day they're infallible, but they certainly cut through the miasma of subjective relativism with laser-like precision, and some of their writings are without compare — you'd be surprised at how many people from how many different religious traditions honour René Guénon, for example.

But they all insist that adherence to a Tradition is a necessary prerequisite. Most of them were (or are) Sufis, but not in every case.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[radarmark]

An aside. Metaphysics or first philosophy or speculative philosophy is the discipline of dealing with the mst general or most basic of questions; like what is the origion of all this (cosmology), what is the nature of all this (ontology), is there anything beyond this (theology). In the XXth century there arose a strange scientistic philosophy, logical positivism, that relegated all speculative philosophy to the realm of "emotional content" by saying "[w]hereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent".

Well, the problem is we know (in terms of being 100% scientifically or mathematically or logically certain) so little we would be relegated to monosyllabic grunts, in my opinion. The beauty of the dreamtime stories of the Aborigines or the creation myths of the Hopi or "Finnegan's Wake" would be lost. The only science would be deductive logic and arithmatic (see mathemativcs and physics and biology and anthropology are all just a series of educated guesses based on faith, called assumptions).

So we must, should speak of things we cannot understand. The really, really hard part is to communicate anything of value in the case of theology (as part of metaphysics). That is where tradition comes in, it provides a context, a map, if you will. A map upon which the mystic can draw circles and squares indicating where G!d is and how to reach H!r.

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

Hi BMS —
In the spirit of dialogue ...


Is that not somewhat a rather jaundiced view? The Great Traditions have been an inspiration in every field of human endeavour ... Literature, music, art, architecture ... I think the world would be a lot duller, and a lot more utilitarian, without it.

And without Revelation, our understandings would be even less ... with the data of Revelation, we can understand much more.

I agree that the histories are not quite so glorious, and in some cases bloody awful, but then that falls far short of the central message, and I think to ditch the message because of certain events is a baby/bathwater scenario?

The evidence from recent secular cultures has put an end to that old saw about religion being the cause of conflict. Stalin alone managed to kill more than all the world's religions put together, and in a fraction of the time ... then you have Pol Pot ...

I was referring to your idea here:

Ben's contributions demonstrates the continuing failure of some people to comprehend the full import of the advent of Christianity.

I don't think it's that he doesn't understand the "full import", he simply disagrees as to what it all means...
I personally have had minor revelations in understanding simply from trying to understand the Jewish viewpoint... i am losing my judgement as I understand more.... that's a good thing....

But then does not 'Truth' become a matter of personal opinion? What about Revelation (i.e., where does God fit in to this plan?)

Without the data from those 'groups', would we even have any frame of reference to discuss?

And I think it's an ideal, but somewhat unrealistic. Not everyone is a 'seeker', and many are happy to 'follow' — true religions have to be universal in the sense they are for all, and not the few.

I must agree - but i should also say that i do not ever foresee a time when man will not have religions.... People are different, a veritable rainbow of experience..... stepping outside of a group could very well give one a greater appreciation FOR that group - but one gets to carry a larger perspective TO that group in this manner....
and i must disagree with the idea that Truth is not individual... it is simply one of the Glories of our Father that even in such diversity, there are commonalities between us.... but we will never be the same as long as we have personality, and we will "receive" the energy of our creator in differing ways...
Religions are a base and a starting point for those who will come into their own...

Yes ... and no ... again, it depends on what you're looking for. I know some in whom being a seeker is more important than finding the thing sought for!

They have not found what they have been seeking - because ( most likely ) it doesn't look like Bob's thingy.... they should be looking for their own....

And again, understanding one religion is more than a lifetime's work ... understanding all, in any meaningful depth, I would suggest is impossible, as really, understanding is 'standing under', and realising a religion in actuality means just that, you cannot serve two masters, you cannot ride two horses ... some make a profession of sitting on the fence and criticising everything from without, without ever really understanding anything.

The closest I've come to a 'universal commentary' is the Perennial Tradition, championed by the likes of Guénon, Schuon, et al (Radarmark knows them, too). I don't day they're infallible, but they certainly cut through the miasma of subjective relativism with laser-like precision, and some of their writings are without compare — you'd be surprised at how many people from how many different religious traditions honour René Guénon, for example.

But they all insist that adherence to a Tradition is a necessary prerequisite. Most of them were (or are) Sufis, but not in every case.

God bless,

Thomas

Here is where i show up and say things like i have so far.....

such as:
when one approaches a question from below or beside the problem, speaking in terms of vibrational frequency, their view will be cluttered with the details...
when one approaches a question from above, again in vibrational terms, a NEW perspective is found where trends and patterns are discernible....

I believe that to understand RELIGION, one must understand their own spirituality.....
because without that, it is all abstract concepts that were said by another...

and when that connection is made - the concern with religion is that it is the place to find those who desire to know Our Father better....
Religion serves it's purpose... and to do that there must be a wide variety of them....

Religion is very important - but it is not the end - it is the means....

 

[Thomas]

Hi BMS —

I don't think it's that he doesn't understand the "full import", he simply disagrees as to what it all means...

I think he's just intent on insisting Christianity is a Jewish aberration, brought about by Hellenic misinterpretations of Hebrew concepts.

Trouble is, the first Christians were Jews ... and the data (Acts 10 for example) tells another story ... anyway, we shouldn't let that delay us.

I personally have had minor revelations in understanding simply from trying to understand the Jewish viewpoint...

In my view the schism between Christian and Jew was a tragedy and was unavoidable, human nature being what it is, we've lost a great deal because of it, but that does not alter the constituents of the Traditional doctrine.

but i should also say that i do not ever foresee a time when man will not have religions....

Interestingly, New Scientist did an issue on religion, and in their view, religion will still be around long after science is dead! or rather, man is wired for religion, but he's not wired for science.

People are different, a veritable rainbow of experience...

But all could still fit under the mantle of a single authentic religion that is, by nature, universal.

stepping outside of a group could very well give one a greater appreciation FOR that group - but one gets to carry a larger perspective TO that group in this manner...

Agreed, but one wouldn't add to the stock of the Revealed Data.

and i must disagree with the idea that Truth is not individual... it is simply one of the Glories of our Father that even in such diversity, there are commonalities between us.... but we will never be the same as long as we have personality, and we will "receive" the energy of our creator in differing ways...

I agree with the idea that the totality of human experience will never exhaust the possibility of Divine Experience, but I would argue that God is One, although I don't think we disagree on that point. Individual truths are always facets of the One Truth, that's why the collective is greater than the individual (and esoterically, by collective I would say 'Tradition') in the same way that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Religions are a base and a starting point for those who will come into their own...

I don't think it's possible to outgrow or outstrip religion, although we might well be working under different definitions of the term.

They have not found what they have been seeking - because ( most likely ) it doesn't look like Bob's thingy.... they should be looking for their own....

I like that!

Here is where i show up and say things like i have so far.....

Can I get back to you on this ... stuff to chew over ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[BrotherMichaelSky]

Hi BMS —


I think he's just intent on insisting Christianity is a Jewish aberration, brought about by Hellenic misinterpretations of Hebrew concepts.

Trouble is, the first Christians were Jews ... and the data (Acts 10 for example) tells another story ... anyway, we shouldn't let that delay us.

the reason I defend him is because i once felt the same - and it seemed to make perfect sense to me.... but my view has changed...

and yes, the first Christians WERE Jews - but i do not think they were what we have NOW represented as Jews...

In my view the schism between Christian and Jew was a tragedy and was unavoidable, human nature being what it is, we've lost a great deal because of it, but that does not alter the constituents of the Traditional doctrine.

I have to agree that it was inevitable.... but it is the "why" which we might just have differing ideas about...
and i must say that i now believe that the Scriptures ARE Divinely inspired....
I just never understood how that could be... but i now see evidence of it...
There is a NEED for the present Christian Scriptures....
and that need requires that what is written, is able to be understood in a VARIETY of ways... It fills this need - amazingly well....

Interestingly, New Scientist did an issue on religion, and in their view, religion will still be around long after science is dead! or rather, man is wired for religion, but he's not wired for science.

Yes, yes indeed he is ( Man - that is.. ).... and i like that you said it that way: "wired"... because it is built right in - including the method of following Jesus' example..... it's just INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT...... which is why it was such a special thing He did for us....

But all could still fit under the mantle of a single authentic religion that is, by nature, universal.

Man's SPIRITUALITY.... not man's RELIGION..... fits under a common banner; but under that banner flies the flags of countless legions of souls.... all colors and shapes and sizes...
Man's spirituality MUST be represented in a BALANCED way - with Religion removed at a certain point - because it is by nature limiting.... and we have no limits...

Agreed, but one wouldn't add to the stock of the Revealed Data.

I could not disagree more, my friend.....
EVERY man is CAPABLE of bringing God to the surface of this planet in a very REAL and EFFECTIVE way..... but they will find themselves on the defensive from Religion and established belief systems....
I am here to share the fact that Man is designed to have the ears to HEAR their God - and the Eyes with which to SEE Him.... but there is effort required.... and there are preconceived notions which will interfere with that - caused by Religion.....

I agree with the idea that the totality of human experience will never exhaust the possibility of Divine Experience, but I would argue that God is One, although I don't think we disagree on that point. Individual truths are always facets of the One Truth, that's why the collective is greater than the individual (and esoterically, by collective I would say 'Tradition') in the same way that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

There is a GREATER whole that we are moving towards.... which is one of the Glories of Our Father - whenever we have begun to see the scope of a situation, and we have begun to think we finally have a handle on the situation - a new vista is opened that makes the soul think " How GREAT is my Father, that He should have created world within world for me to find".... The Scope of Our Father's Creating is unimaginable to us now..... and we limit ourselves TREMENDOUSLY by refusing to budge from old stale patterns that we have down by heart....

I don't think it's possible to outgrow or outstrip religion, although we might well be working under different definitions of the term.

Religion, by nature, limits the possibilities of Our Father - who has no limits.....
It is no sin to recognize that " Hey, My Father is SOOOO much Greater than I imagined possible...." It is following in the example of every Great Soul who has Come, to break free of the bounds we have imagined for Ourselves and our God.... it CELEBRATES what he has given us....

I like that!

you have no idea how much i appreciate that ! the things i am here to share do not always garner that reaction....

Can I get back to you on this ... stuff to chew over ...

God bless,

Thomas

I am very willing to clarify anything I have said... frequently it is in the conversation about details that i receive important ideas.....

 

[Princely]

The Lord is the God of the living not of the dead.

He is the God of the One who lives.

The Lord says this;

"You must remain completely loyal to the Lord your God."

"Worship God alone, Him alone shall you serve."

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament proclaim his handiwork."

"I will put salvation in Zion and give to Israel my Glory. My Glory I give to no other."

Give to God what is Gods. Give Glory to God.

" Offer to God praise as a sacrifice, and fulfill your vows to the Most High, then call on me in your time of distress and I will rescue you, and you shall glorify me."

 

[taijasi]

When you take God out of the box, what is there to possess, exactly?

 

[Amergin]

When you take God out of the box, what is there to possess, exactly?

All religions and all gods are purely human concepts or inventions. There is no objective evidence for the reality of gods. They cannot be seen, heard, felt, or measured in any way.

What I think apart from the double talk of philosophy, is that god does mean something. It is a weak hypothesis of speculation on what caused the creation or beginning of the Universe, Earth, and animals including us. I think it is fine to admit that we do not know how or why the Big Bang occurred but that it is the cause of everything we see.

Primitive humankind assumed that unseen things (spirits) were the invisible cause of all things and motions. Spirits made rivers flow, springs to bubble, lava to flow, earthquakes occur, the Sun to revolve around the flat Earth, and for animals like man to think, communicate, perform certain motor actions, to perceive sensation, to remember experiences, to forge new concepts from parts of memory experience. Later humans (we are all lumpers) merged the thousands of spirits into one super-spirit called God. God was the metaphor for creation, laws of physics, animal cognition, and advanced human mental functions. We tended to keep minor spirits, separate from the Great Spirit, to explain human consciousness and thought. Dreams and Near Death Experiences deluded humans into belief in invisible beings in general.

If God is the metaphor for what caused the Big Bang and Creation, we can all believe in the God of Hawking. He and I believe God is a non-conscious, not cognitive collection of natural forces, and perhaps inter-dimensional collisions. These forces cause the Universe without any specific implications. It just happens. We cannot see this metaphorical god in the visual sense but only in the mathematical and quantum physics sense.

If one wishes to personify this natural creative force or forces, it is fine. It is understandable that when primitives personify this process that they design it after some past tribal or clan leader, shaman, or warlord. I suspect that all named gods are named after a long deceased leader or hero.

We have no reason to personify the Big Bang than we do to personify the burst of a giant ancient star that runs out of fusion energy and explodes in a supernova. All stars by their physics and chemistry must burn their hydrogen in fusion reactors that eventually run out of hydrogen and helium, and accumulate metals like Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen, and Iron. Then they explode in a nova or supernova. It is not magic. We do not see giant Jewish hands squeezing those stars.

Attributing the entire universe to a personified God is not necessarily bad. It gives people lacking a science education some basis for a worldview.

Unfortunately, psychopathic, power hungry human leaders designed religion. It set up rules for unity, submission to the warlord or chief, a mythological history to the world. God does not kill people. People kill people and blame it on their god's orders. Evil men use God as an excuse to conquer other people in other lands. They use God as an excuse to eliminate opposition to their rule. They use God as an excuse to impose oppression and exploit the lower ranking people of their own tribe and conquered tribes. The too often result is female genital mutilation, male circumcision, prohibiting birth control, inquisition that puts people to death for thinking outside of the stone box, blaming sin for illness, and a long list of other atrocities performed by men (not God) against deluded followers.