Where is Daniel? Where is His Book?

[Servetus]

Muhammad, on the other hand, emerged in the full light of history, roused the sons of Ishmael from their idolatrous stupor, reclaimed the Arabian Penninsula and, what's more, conquered, as Maimonides is forced to acknowledge, not only the Roman and Persian Empires but also, before he was done, drove the Greeks in the main out of his practically native Syria. Bloody brilliant!

Well, things have changed. Or perhaps the Arabs of that time could prevail because they were of a different kind. Today, numbers of Arabic armies with weaponry superior many times than ours have tried to push us into the sea and got crushed to their own embarrassment. What happened?

What happened is that you Israelis are -and have been- standing behind the best weaponry and military machine that money can buy. In case you haven't noticed, you have the unequivocal backing of what some smarty pants Europeans call the world's one and only Stupor Power, the USA, which country also acts as your agent in the United Nations Security Council.

But I wouldn't become overly confident. A lot depends upon one's viewpoint. Consider, for instance, that of Barry Chamish, one of your country's more irrepressible and original commentators. Unlike the brilliant Muhammad, who was able to drive the Greeks out of Syria, you Israelis, on the other hand, and according to Chamish, cannot be rid of (and take your directives, especially when it comes to various "peace processes," from) the Council on Foreign Relations. Chamish claims the CFR is a Catholic (Jesuit) institution, the so called "Nazi Jesuits" in his words, which means that those horrid Edomites drive Israeli domestic and, to some extent, foreign policy. Wasn't it for this, the presumed tendency of Yitzach Rabin to take orders from the CFR and negotiate land, that Yigdal Amir, another proponent of ethnic cleansing and Eretz Israelite, assassinated him?

According to Chamish, then, the Greco-Roman Catholics have not only returned, they are in Israel's driver's seat.


Serv

 

[fadded blue jeans]

The book of daniel mentions that daniel wrote the book in several places and God the Son says Daniel wrote the book is also clear Mt 24:15, quoting 9:27 11:31 and 12:11

 

[radarmark]

Well, gee whiz.... the Torah mentions Moses as the author several times and no competent scholar believes that is the case.

 

[Ben Masada]

If, by that, you mean that you have not changed your opinion, how is it, then, that a "historian of the Hasmonean period," writing history as prophecy after the fact, could be quoted by Maimonides as foretelling the rise of Muhammad? Maimonides evidently considered it prophecy, written before the fact, else he wouldn't have quoted it as such.


Serv

Yes, now I remember. You are right. But IMHO, Maimonides was expressing his indignation for having to flee Spain in order not to undergo the apostasy to have to convert to Islam.

That's what I meant by "The same as above."

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

What happened is that you Israelis are -and have been- standing behind the best weaponry and military machine that money can buy. In case you haven't noticed, you have the unequivocal backing of what some smarty pants Europeans call the world's one and only Stupor Power, the USA, which country also acts as your agent in the United Nations Security Council.

But I wouldn't become overly confident. A lot depends upon one's viewpoint. Consider, for instance, that of Barry Chamish, one of your country's more irrepressible and original commentators. Unlike the brilliant Muhammad, who was able to drive the Greeks out of Syria, you Israelis, on the other hand, and according to Chamish, cannot be rid of (and take your directives, especially when it comes to various "peace processes," from) the Council on Foreign Relations. Chamish claims the CFR is a Catholic (Jesuit) institution, the so called "Nazi Jesuits" in his words, which means that those horrid Edomites drive Israeli domestic and, to some extent, foreign policy. Wasn't it for this, the presumed tendency of Yitzach Rabin to take orders from the CFR and negotiate land, that Yigdal Amir, another proponent of ethnic cleansing and Eretz Israelite, assassinated him?

According to Chamish, then, the Greco-Roman Catholics have not only returned, they are in Israel's driver's seat.


Serv

I was talking about 1948, when several Arab countries attacked us with the intent to push us into sea and we crushed them. At that time we did not have "The best weaponry and military machine that money can buy."

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

The book of daniel mentions that daniel wrote the book in several places and God the Son says Daniel wrote the book is also clear Mt 24:15, quoting 9:27 11:31 and 12:11

Who is this "God the Son" you refer to, Jesus? Was he Greek? Jewish, he could not have been, because the Greek myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman is impossible in Judaism, which was the Faith of Jesus.

And for the quotations above in Daniel, none has anything to say that Daniel the prophet wrote the book of Daniel. And Mat. 24:15 is a reference to what Daniel foretold and not that he wrote. Did you read these quotations before you decided to post them? Not too clever if you didn't. Don't trust that I won't check them; I always do.

Ben

 

[radarmark]

Opened that can of whoop-*ss logic, boy! Very concise answer, Ben. I also can find no self-references in Daniel.

See fbj, The Book of Daniel you are reading is not the same as that of the Masoretic text (the Hebrew Scripture used by Jews). Daniel - Chapter 1 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible is probably the best English translation of it you will find. You will not find that "book of daniel mentions that daniel wrote the book" is true in a single instance.

 

[Servetus]

In the case of Alexander avoiding conquering the Land of Israel, was, according to Josephus, a dream he had to rather subject himself to be blessed by the Jewish High Priest instead.

"Fanciful tales sprang up later, in which Alexander paid homage to the High Priest in Jerusalem and Yahweh sanctioned his subjugation of Persia (Jos[ephus]. AJ 11.304–5). None of them has a basis in fact. Palestine was of small interest to the king who captured the great fortress of Tyre, then marched straight to Egypt and subsequently to Mesopotamia, on the way to the heartland of the Persian empire. Judaea was spared – and largely ignored." (Source)

That's what I meant by "The same as above."

Sorry. What that doesn't explain, sufficiently to me, is how it is that your "historian of the Hasmonean period," say in 145 BCE, writing so called "prophecy" but actually history after the fact, would be quoted by Maimonides in 1190 CE as having alluded to the rise of Muhammad and the Islamic Empire in the years 700+ CE (with all dates being approximate)? Maimonides must have read Daniel as containing prophecy, not history, written before the fact.

Serv

 

[Ben Masada]

"Fanciful tales sprang up later, in which Alexander paid homage to the High Priest in Jerusalem and Yahweh sanctioned his subjugation of Persia (Jos[ephus]. AJ 11.304–5). None of them has a basis in fact. Palestine was of small interest to the king who captured the great fortress of Tyre, then marched straight to Egypt and subsequently to Mesopotamia, on the way to the heartland of the Persian empire. Judaea was spared – and largely ignored." (Source)

Sorry. What that doesn't explain, sufficiently to me, is how it is that your "historian of the Hasmonean period," say in 145 BCE, writing so called "prophecy" but actually history after the fact, would be quoted by Maimonides in 1190 CE as having alluded to the rise of Muhammad and the Islamic Empire in the years 700+ CE (with all dates being approximate)? Maimonides must have read Daniel as containing prophecy, not history, written before the fact.

Serv

First, there was no such a thing as "Palestine" when Alexander passed by the Land of Israel. If it was spared for being too insignificant, how come it became so significant under the power of Alexander's successor? The attitude of finding Israel so insignificant, cost Greece the lost of serveral armies at the hands of the Jews. So much so that they had to leave Israel in peace. Read about Antiochus IV and the Maccabees. It is all in the books of the Maccabees.

And second, I refuse to admit that Maimonides would have been so banal as to declare that Daniel had prophesyed the rise of Islam. It was perhaps in a ton of joke, given his struggle to leave his homeland in Spain in order not to apostatize into Islam.

Ben