Dream
Well-Known Member
No, no, no! There is no goddess except for phyllis, you heathen. She of the flippety floppety kitty cat rebukes you.Wil said:
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Yes, anyone who can herd cats like she can deserves such status!
The Gospel of Thomas gives full equality to women if they want it. The first such document in history, religious or not. Explicitly in #114 and the female disciples, Mary and Salome, are the ones that get it. The men, it's about 50/50.
Etu Malku
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LMFAO
That stupid gospel says THIS:And it is far from the first document that states the equality of Female and Male, matter of fact the entire Feminine aspect was crushed by Christianity because it was/is considered too Pagan and Goddess worshiping.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
In the Abrahamic faiths, it is about as close as one gets. Definitely not good enough, though, you have that right, EM. Shucks, even my poor Native American ancestors had a more enlightened teaching.
Ok, produce that 2000+ year old Native American (or any other) document that gives full equality to women.
I'll bet the ranch you can't.
Let me try this again, new here and the other one disappeared into the ether.
Thomas 114
Simon Peter said to them: "Let Mary go away from us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said: "Look, I will draw her in so as to make her male, so that she too may become a living male spirit, similar to you." (But I say to you): "Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven." © Patterson-Robinson
It's Peter, the clueless male disciple, saying Mary the female disciple isn't their equal, and Jesus reads him the riot act and says she is. He's talking to people that never contemplated that women could be the equal of men. He's using their language, their perspective. To say they are equal he says they are like men.
And worth noting, that if the unnamed "Disciple Jesus Loved" in John is Mary (duuuuh), then the ending of John is identical to the end of Thomas, Peter wanting to drive out Mary and Jesus reading him the riot act.
And you forgot to point out that 2000+ year old document giving full equality to women.
I'll bet the ranch you can't.
Thomas 114
Simon Peter said to them: "Let Mary go away from us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said: "Look, I will draw her in so as to make her male, so that she too may become a living male spirit, similar to you." (But I say to you): "Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven." © Patterson-Robinson
It's Peter, the clueless male disciple, saying Mary the female disciple isn't their equal, and Jesus reads him the riot act and says she is. He's talking to people that never contemplated that women could be the equal of men. He's using their language, their perspective. To say they are equal he says they are like men.
And worth noting, that if the unnamed "Disciple Jesus Loved" in John is Mary (duuuuh), then the ending of John is identical to the end of Thomas, Peter wanting to drive out Mary and Jesus reading him the riot act.
And you forgot to point out that 2000+ year old document giving full equality to women.
I'll bet the ranch you can't.
LMFAO
And it is far from the first document that states the equality of Female and Male, matter of fact the entire Feminine aspect was crushed by Christianity because it was/is considered too Pagan and Goddess worshiping.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
Gimme a break... Natives did not have writing (duhhhhhhh!). But just look at the equality/superiority of the feminine in their social structures, mythology, and politics.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
I suggest you look up the role of females as heads of the nations in the Haudenosaunee or Tsalagi or Hopílavayi (iraquois, Cherokee and Hopi) cultures. The clan mothers have run the nations for centuries. Men implement their decisions. And in most Great Plains cultures the women were free to divorce, own the communal property, and become warriors. I think that is a little more advance then turning them into women.
By the way there is little or no evidence for the early church benefiting from this Thomas quote. Christianity, like Judaism before it an Islam afterwards suffers from a cultural (meaning the source is not in the revelations) misogynism (at least early on).
By the way there is little or no evidence for the early church benefiting from this Thomas quote. Christianity, like Judaism before it an Islam afterwards suffers from a cultural (meaning the source is not in the revelations) misogynism (at least early on).
Actually, it's not just Thomas, Christianity was about the only religion where women had any chance of being approximately equal. Luke is probably a woman. The author of the John letters explictly says she's a woman and is thought by scholars Christian and agnostic, to be at least one of the authors of the Gospel of John.
The Christian and Thomas Gospels have female disciples and there are women often mentioned holding religious meetings in their homes.
It was stamped out later, but in the first century, there's overwhelming evidence women were given given far more equality than other religions.
The Christian and Thomas Gospels have female disciples and there are women often mentioned holding religious meetings in their homes.
It was stamped out later, but in the first century, there's overwhelming evidence women were given given far more equality than other religions.
Here's the other Thomas sayings that mention women disciples by name...
(This one has all kinds of sexual overtones. Technically, master and all, he's saying she's his wife, by the way. It's snippets found elsewhere, in Thomas and the Christian Gospels, assembled together, because of the sexual innuendo.)
Thomas 21
Mary said to Jesus: "Whom are your disciples like?" He said: "They are like servants who are entrusted with a field that is not theirs. When the owners of the field arrive, they will say: ‘Let us have our field.’ (But) they are naked in their presence so as to let them have it (and thus) to give them their field.""That is why I say: ‘When the master of the house learns that the thief is about to come, he will be on guard before he comes (and) will not let him break into his house, his domain, to carry away his possessions.’ (But) you, be on guard against the world! Gird your loins with great strength, so that the robbers will not find a way to get to you." "For the necessities for which you wait (with longing) will be found. There ought to be a wise person among you! When the fruit was ripe, he came quickly with his sickle in his hand, (and) he harvested it. Whoever has ears to hear should hear."
(This one could be interpreted sexually too...)
Thomas 61Jesus said: "Two will rest on a bed. The one will die, the other will live." Salome said: "(So) who are you, man? You have gotten a place on my couch as a <stranger> and you have eaten from my table." Jesus said to her: "I am he who comes from the one who is (always) the same. I was given some of that which is my Father’s.""I am your disciple!""Therefore I say: If someone becomes <like> (God), he will become full of light. But if he becomes one, separated (from God), he will become full of darkness."
Both women get it. Men disciples, not so much. Such as Peter, in #114.
(This one has all kinds of sexual overtones. Technically, master and all, he's saying she's his wife, by the way. It's snippets found elsewhere, in Thomas and the Christian Gospels, assembled together, because of the sexual innuendo.)
Thomas 21
Mary said to Jesus: "Whom are your disciples like?" He said: "They are like servants who are entrusted with a field that is not theirs. When the owners of the field arrive, they will say: ‘Let us have our field.’ (But) they are naked in their presence so as to let them have it (and thus) to give them their field.""That is why I say: ‘When the master of the house learns that the thief is about to come, he will be on guard before he comes (and) will not let him break into his house, his domain, to carry away his possessions.’ (But) you, be on guard against the world! Gird your loins with great strength, so that the robbers will not find a way to get to you." "For the necessities for which you wait (with longing) will be found. There ought to be a wise person among you! When the fruit was ripe, he came quickly with his sickle in his hand, (and) he harvested it. Whoever has ears to hear should hear."
(This one could be interpreted sexually too...)
Thomas 61Jesus said: "Two will rest on a bed. The one will die, the other will live." Salome said: "(So) who are you, man? You have gotten a place on my couch as a <stranger> and you have eaten from my table." Jesus said to her: "I am he who comes from the one who is (always) the same. I was given some of that which is my Father’s.""I am your disciple!""Therefore I say: If someone becomes <like> (God), he will become full of light. But if he becomes one, separated (from God), he will become full of darkness."
Both women get it. Men disciples, not so much. Such as Peter, in #114.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
SG, that is fair. The claim being made is that the (for me, rather unflattering) text of Thomas is evidence of an early non-patriarchal bent. I think Gautama lived before Jesus, nu?
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Where is the 2000+ year old document that gives full equality to women, I must have missed it.
Jesus, in Thomas, is flat out explicitly correcting Peter and saying women can be the full equal of men if they want to.
You man think saying they can be like men is sexist and he should have said it another way, but I assure you, any way he said it, even in that way that flatters the male ego, it was, by far, the most shocking thing they ever heard.
One thing's for sure, no other such document that old or older has been produced here that even remotely gives full equality to women.
Oh, by about 500 years, or so.
Then you should have no problem producing the 2500 year old document, or 2000 year old document.
Waiting.
Jesus and Buddha, (and the Greek Cynics, who are also 500 years before Jesus), all came to the same conclusion, "Poverty is Freedom". But unlike the Cynics and Buddhists, with Jesus, it was ok to have fun.
I've looked long and hard for Buddhist parallels to Jesus, that would indicate he got some of it from Buddha. After all, he worked in cosmopolitan Sepphoris. But there's not a trace of it, plenty of Greek and almost all Hebrew, but not a trace of Buddha. That's good, the part they have in common, you have to think is close to truth.
I've looked long and hard for Buddhist parallels to Jesus, that would indicate he got some of it from Buddha. After all, he worked in cosmopolitan Sepphoris. But there's not a trace of it, plenty of Greek and almost all Hebrew, but not a trace of Buddha. That's good, the part they have in common, you have to think is close to truth.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
For laypeople:
Sigalovada Sutta: The Discourse to Sigala
The Layperson's Code of Discipline
"In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:
(i) by being courteous to her,
(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments.
"The wife thus ministered to as the West by her husband shows her compassion to her husband in five ways:(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments.
(i) she performs her duties well,
(ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants[10]
(iii) she is faithful,
(iv) she protects what he brings,
(v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging her duties.
"In these five ways does the wife show her compassion to her husband who ministers to her as the West. Thus is the West covered by him and made safe and secure.(ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants[10]
(iii) she is faithful,
(iv) she protects what he brings,
(v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging her duties.
Buddhism is quite egalitarian.