A Holy Kiss

Ahanu

Ahanu

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Evangelicals often urge others to read the Bible as the infallible word of God, but I can't think of any evangelical practicing the following command: "Greet one another with a holy kiss" (Romans 16.16; 1 Corinthians 16.20, 2 Corinthians 13.12). Do any Christian churches practice this today?
 
I don't, and would look forward to knowing what a Holy Kiss is....

I'll look it up on my end... but we are huggerz... not that soul shake arm between pat on the back hug or typical male A frame feet 3 feet away and lean in, but a heart to heart take a nice deep breath and connection type of hug.
 
Well, 'Infallible', yes they do. Although its declarative, this verse is less of a command than a recommendation; plus it is part of a letter to a specific group of people. Some evangelicals might in theory require everyone to kiss, but they would be the exception rather than the rule. Kissing can cause problems, too. What if you cannot make it a holy kiss? What if you have a cold? Its better to cut off your hand than to let it drag you into sin (says Jesus), and its better to be drowned then to cause his little ones to sin. If a kiss might cause your brother or sister to have a problem, then you shouldn't try to force them to kiss you. This is the reasoning which prevails. Hugging is popular as is a hand shake, squeeze of the arm or a sideways hug.

Personally I think that the spirit of the holy kiss was about equality and seeing Christ in each other. In ancient culture a kiss would be appropriate to send this message, but in our culture a kiss does not mean equality.
 
What if you cannot make it a holy kiss? What if you have a cold?
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Have you no faith, Dream? God will protect us from a cold. Surely you believe the author of the universe could handle a mere cold? After all, the Bible says:

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well" (Mark 16.17-18).

;)

I should have noted we are discussing biblicism, a term Christian Smith defines as "a theory about the Bible that emphasizes together its exclusive authority, infallibility, perspicuity, self-sufficiency, internal consistency, self-evident meaning, and universal applicability." (I've been keeping up with Rachel Evan's blog posts on Christian Smith's book The Bible Made Impossible). When we put on our biblicism caps, we take everything in the Bible at face value. This is the predominant way of reading the Bible in my area, so if the Bible talks about talking snakes and a six thousand year old Earth, that is what we should believe. But, if the Bible talks about a holy kiss, we should not teach it?!?!

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me . . . Greet one another with a holy kiss" (Romans 16.1-2; 16.16).

"The churches in the province of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Priscillagreet you warmly in the Lord, and so does the church that meets at their house. All the brothers and sisters here send you greetings. Greet one another with a holy kiss" (1 Corinthians 16.19-20).

"Greet one another with a holy kiss" (2 Corinthians 13.12).

"Greet all God’s people with a holy kiss" (1 Thess. 5.26).

"Greet one another with a kiss of love" (1 Peter 5.14).

Although its declarative, this verse is less of a command than a recommendation
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Biblicism cap, please. Even if it is a recommendation, I know of no evangelical urging his congregation to "greet one another with a holy kiss," as the Bible clearly says. This shows even biblicists are selective in their approach to the Bible.
 
Dream said:
Personally I think that the spirit of the holy kiss was about equality and seeing Christ in each other. In ancient culture a kiss would be appropriate to send this message, but in our culture a kiss does not mean equality.
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In our culture--well, in the medical culture of our modern world--we don't explain illnesses as demon possession, but biblicists swear up and down a demon can enter and exit your body.

"When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him [Jesus], and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick" (Matthew 8.16).

Why doesn't a change in culture change this belief? Displays of affection change with culture rather quickly . . . while beliefs are much harder to change?
 
wil said:
I don't, and would look forward to knowing what a Holy Kiss is....

I'll look it up on my end... but we are huggerz... not that soul shake arm between pat on the back hug or typical male A frame feet 3 feet away and lean in, but a heart to heart take a nice deep breath and connection type of hug.
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Hmm . . . Hugs function as a common form of greeting in churches here too. Out of curiosity I wonder if any churches in the United States, Europe, China, or somewhere else in the world "greet one another with a holy kiss." Unfortunately, I'm not much of a hugging person. I don't mind shaking hands, but that disappoints the old women rocking church hats!
 
Dream said:
Personally I think that the spirit of the holy kiss was about equality and seeing Christ in each other. In ancient culture a kiss would be appropriate to send this message, but in our culture a kiss does not mean equality.
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Namaste/Namaskar? The light (all that is right and holy) in me, sees and honors the light in you.

NiceCupOfTea said:
its a bit like french kissing Wil :rolleyes:
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Now that would change the world.
 
wil said:
I don't, and would look forward to knowing what a Holy Kiss is....

I'll look it up on my end... but we are huggerz... not that soul shake arm between pat on the back hug or typical male A frame feet 3 feet away and lean in, but a heart to heart take a nice deep breath and connection type of hug.
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Sounds like a holy kiss (embrace) to me, wil. It may not be with the lips, but it is certainly an embrace of the heart. That kinda makes it holy, don't it?
 
Isn't kissing a big part of Catholic European culture? In the movies those in Latin countries kiss as a greeting, usually two kisses one for each cheek.
 
A Holy Kiss is not really a physical kiss. We must understand that not all terms in the Bible are literal. In 1 Cor 16, I dont think Paul is commanding all those brethren from far away places greet each other with a physical kiss. The word kiss here is used like a metynomy not to physically approach and touch each other but meaning to meet in spiritual understanding. Like how it is used in psalms 85:10 "Mercy and truth are met together, righteousness and peace have kissed each other". Paul is simply telling them to treat each other with all holiness. To be merciful, truthful, righteous, peaceful and all things holy towards each other.
 
A Holy Kiss is not really a physical kiss. We must understand that not all terms in the Bible are literal. In 1 Cor 16, I dont think Paul is commanding all those brethren from far away places greet each other with a physical kiss. The word kiss here is used like a metynomy not to physically approach and touch each other but meaning to meet in spiritual understanding. Like how it is used in psalms 85:10 "Mercy and truth are met together, righteousness and peace have kissed each other". Paul is simply telling them to treat each other with all holiness. To be merciful, truthful, righteous, peaceful and all things holy towards each other.
 
Thank you for that comment. It seems that this is what ahanu is wondering about, since it is the opposite of what Bible fundamentalists (not necessarily evangelicals) mean when they talk about the infallible word. What they mean is that their judgment is in some way less fallible than their neighbors. This point of view is seen as a virtue, while its ill effects are seen as unnatural tragedies. All of the vicious church divisions and family feuds are seen as freak train wreck which could not have been avoided! The recently contrived 'Non-denominational' movement is a reaction to massive disagreements in the past that have cause so much pain, yet it still harbors the exact same divisional attitudes. In such a situation, you do have to question the claim to their 'Infallible word of God'.
 
So if they 'Lay on hands' expecting instantaneous healing, and if they consider synagogues to be the church of Satan, then why don't they give each other 'Holy kisses'? Its a reasonable question. Should there be healing services or not? Should there be exorcisms? There ought to be consistency if the word can be infallibly interpreted, and if it can't be infallibly interpreted then what is the point in calling it infallible?

The answer to that leading question is: it benefits whomever wants to make themselves a leadership position. Their word become the least fallible. They become the Head, the Pastor, the Prophet or whatever title is in vogue. They get a ship to steer and rowers to row it.
 
Kissing is a big part of European culture, not necessarily Catholic. In fact, I think it's even more common in Orthodox cultures. Look at the way Russian men greet each other.

As a Euro myself, I tend to view most American evangelicalism as an extension of US nationalism, so it's the Infallible World of God, as long as it conforms to 'Truth, Justice and the American Way'.

The laying on of hands, the healing kiss, all exist within a cultural context, and culture changes over time.

And these are just outward signs, and can mean anything, and to get too caught up in them can mean missing the point. It's a question of social acceptability and scandal, sentimentality, really.

Kissing went from the British scene thanks to Oscar Wilde, who's affair with Lord Alfred 'Bosie' Douglas caused such a scandal that it changed the way we relate to each other. Illustrations of British Army officers ('Uniforms of the British Army') walking arm in arm were common in the Illustrated London News of the day, but not after the scandal broke; thereafter men were only portrayed arm in arm when one or both were sorely wounded.

Personally I work my greetings according to the scandalometer — normally a handshake with strangers (although I do tend to grip), unless among huggers, and then a hug. Among friends, it's hugs all round (except in a couple of cases, one of our closest friends doesn't do 'the kissy/huggy thing' at all). There's only a couple of friends whom I kiss.

Then again, my daughter thinks I'm my best friend's bitch, and his daughter thinks her dad's my bitch (we're both bikers), even though we've never kissed ... so appearances can be deceptive.

And definitely one of my most powerful 'man moments' was an unexpected meeting with a friend in the middle of Oxford St, one of the busiest streets in London ... one handshake, and we were in our own spacetime continuum, with the world turning in its frenetic vortex around us.

For me, it's all in the eyes ...

God bless

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
Kissing is a big part of European culture, not necessarily Catholic. In fact, I think it's even more common in Orthodox cultures. Look at the way Russian men greet each other.
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Good to know. From my point of view it seemed like it could be related, but you don't seem to think so.

As a Euro myself, I tend to view most American evangelicalism as an extension of US nationalism, so it's the Infallible World of God, as long as it conforms to 'Truth, Justice and the American Way'.
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If it helps I've always viewed myself as the descendent of English colonists.
 
Dream said:
So if they 'Lay on hands' expecting instantaneous healing, and if they consider synagogues to be the church of Satan, then why don't they give each other 'Holy kisses'?
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We have our "Unholy Kiss" too . . . it's called
The Osculum Infame
osculum_infame.jpg
 
Etu Malku, its a wood cutting by people who have repressed sexual desires. Imagination is supplied by desire. This woodcut is the result of many desires, including the desire to express taboo ideas, desire to see punishment, desire to be punished, etc. Its less of a warning about witches and more like an advertisement. It may have been used to sell things or as porn. Perhaps somebody put it up on their tavern.
 
Dream said:
Etu Malku, its a wood cutting by people who have repressed sexual desires. Imagination is supplied by desire. This woodcut is the result of many desires, including the desire to express taboo ideas, desire to see punishment, desire to be punished, etc. Its less of a warning about witches and more like an advertisement. It may have been used to sell things or as porn. Perhaps somebody put it up on their tavern.
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I would disagree.

The "Devil’s Kiss" has represented since the medieval times the kissing of the devil’s behind, or end quarters as a dedication to the Left Hand Path. The context of defining this ritual dedication was propagated by the Church and was a charge often thrown at those accused of witchcraft during these times. The Osculum Infame is mentioned in nearly every single recorded account of a witches' sabbat and in confessions – most of which were extracted under torture.

The history of this ritual was perpetrated by medieval witch hunters who in base were impotent bigots, who could not understand nor accept the equality of women within a cultural context.
 
Most people were bigoted by today's standards, and I believe that is the natural degeneration following wars and other cultural extinctions. If people aren't vigilant bigotry will become widespread again, and the benefits of equality will be forgotten.

Any pan-European claim about witch hunters is difficult to support. European civil records are scattered and aging. You'd have to spend years traveling, requesting permission to see old documents and read dusty rotting pages in multiple languages. It only happens in the movies.
 
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