A Holy Kiss

Did I mention that Satan and Lucifer (and all derivatives of) never murdered anyone in these texts?
Look again, buddy ...

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. But if I say the truth, you believe me not."
John 8:44

Now you can put whatever contemporary spin you like on these verses, what matters to me is what the sacred scribe is saying, and all the traditional commentary points to the fact that 'satan' and 'lucifer' and 'the father of lies' and 'a murderer from the beginning' all refer to one and the same:

"And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28.

Rather colourful language for the modern reader, but to the point in its day. The 'he' of this text is unmistakably the 'satan' of the Hebrew Tradition, who is none other than the 'Lucifier' of the Greek commentaries.

God bless,

Thomas
 
When I said "you guys" I was speaking about the Abrahamics which according to you, you are not.
The Abrahamic texts as a whole dictate processes that many of us would consider "Evil", as I stated in my reply to Thomas, it doesn't matter which denomination one hides behind, it is the same god with the same intentions.

Did I mention that Satan and Lucifer (and all derivatives of) never murdered anyone in these texts?

Just sayin' :rolleyes:

The oldest religions had nothing to do with "Sin" or redemption, this idea is a purely Abrahamic idea created to enslave (IMO).

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, but I don't see how I interpreted what you wrote out of context. The old testament (and perhaps the new?) contain "Evil", so every group who base their spirituality around it inherit all the blame of all interpretation of that book. I think it's pretty fu**ed up that you put the 'Christian' label on people and move on, but it's you're right to do so. I would like to clear up any confusion and my original point was that I didn't like your remark that seemed (to me) like an unnecessary poke at Thomas.

Nonsense. The shaman is the 'sin-eater' in every sense of the word, an intercessor on behalf of the people he or she represents — without that aspect, what use is any shaman/religion at all?

Really? I have a very shallow understanding of shamanism, but I never put my understanding of the Christian sin on other religions. You wouldn't have read anywhere specificity about this?
 
Set did. (Although Set was depicted as the god of foreigners, so Set murdering Osiris might have been about foreign invaders committing genocide against the more native peoples.)
Actually both Set and Horus the Elder were patrons of the two Egyptian lands (Upper & Lower) both revered gods. It wasn't until much later during the Osirian religion's reign did all that anti-Set stuff come about, and the new Horus was associated as the child of Isis & Osiris . . . it was political propaganda.
 
I must say, you brought up some very relevant points and I hope didn't come across too crass in my reply/post :D
I know, 'injustice' seems endemic to the human condition, but I also know that prejudice and propaganda has promoted fantasy figures when it comes to how many have suffered and the reasons why.

Any bandying numbers about without a context really doesn't help — if you look at the numbers killed by cars each year, then obviously cars should be banned and any government that tolerates the automobile must be run by lunatics if you look at those figures isolated from the social context.

Take the Office of the Inquisition.
The common opinion is that it was 'a bad thing'. The reality is something quite different. In Europe, right up until recent history, anyone on trial for anything stood a good chance of being hanged — the assumption being that if you were before the courts you were obviously guilty. The Church became aware that local mayors, magistrates, etc., were sitting in judgement on theological matters (witchcraft being one), and were operating well outside their area of education, and invariably the (safe) sentence was death.

Evidence shows that very quickly, those arrested chose to be tried by the Inquisition rather than the local secular authorities, as the odds of an acquittal was distinctly in the defendants favour.

I'm not saying the office was never abused (look at the contemporary position of young black males in America), but I am saying simply spouting the same old assumptions, repeated so often they are invariably assumed to be true, doesn't help.

I looked round on Google for material evidence to offer you — I haven't got the books nor university library access I had when studying for my degree — but the amount of screaming, polemical bullshit is staggering.

It's a matter of note, for example, that the treatment of Galileo was absolutely enlightened compared to the standard of the day — 'house arrest' in a luxury villa where he could receive and entertain his friends? Unheard of!

Similarly, the truth of the Galileo affair was that his scientific contemporaries were out for his blood (being Aristotelians) and the papacy was the only one on his side, until he ridiculed the pope, then he was on his own.

We, of course, made a complete mess of being overly dogmatic — or is that dictatorial — in our statements. What we should have said is that the language of Scripture is not the language of science, and when the Bible says 'the sun stood still' this was a subjective view, not a physical fact — but that would be asking someone to leapfrog a couple of hundred years of critical text analysis. Where we've backed ourselves into a corner is the assumption that we can never be wrong — and it's an argument I will not surrender to 'authority' when history shows that we have — good grief, we've declared popes to be heretics, so how can they be infallible?

On that note, no-one (not even the Vatican) can say for certain how many 'infallible' declarations the papacy has made, coming from the pope alone. The estimate is around four statements, and not ever uttered word as so many assume.

But we rely too heavily, it seems to me, on subtle and highly nuanced legalistic argument (demonstrated on how we explain that the pope's exhortation to believe the sun revolves round the earth was not a dogmatic statement when it seems to me that's exactly what he was saying).

My measure, naive as that might be, is that Our Lord never relied on such sophistry and rhetoric when disputing with the Pharisees, and nor did the Apostles ... and when the argument does become 'subtle' and 'nuanced', I think we're in trouble ... I think He'd say "What the heck are you on about?"

I also have, I think, sound theological argument to dispute the idea of infallibility, but I'm very wary about 'opening the door' here, as there are too many vested interests who'd want to come in and tear the place down in support of their own agendas, which are often more dogmatic and doctrinaire than the RC Church!


No it's not, it's absolutely the point. Was there ever actually a resurgence in pagan religion? Where? Why? I would say it happened in proportion to the degree that the Reformers removed the idea of 'Mystery' from the lives of the common people. Not because of any virtue of the Catholic Church, other than a vibrant symbolic language that transcends the voice of the pulpit — which became the centre of Reformation religious focus — a language that is all but lost today.

In Switzerland, Calvinists burnt a woman at the stake for putting flowers on her husband's grave. Is that witchcraft? And the Salem trials? It's all about context.

Today we live in an age where people invent mysteries, and the notion of 'mystery' itself is something subjective, largely a casting of one's own idealisations and superstitions, cherry-picked from a variety of religious texts, without penetrating any meaningful order of reality of which 'The Mysteries' speak, because that requires ascesis, hard-work, self-effacement, discipleship — none of which is welcome in a 'me-first' materialist/consumerist culture.

And the RC Church, like the Orthodox Patriarchates, who actually hold the keys, are embarrassed, it seems to me, and unable to formulate a meaningful dialogue with the world on these matters, and rather spout vague niceties ... sheesh ... don't get me started!


Yes they were. And they still are. And they're being murdered by secular authorities in numbers that are, indeed, fantastic ... For the Love of Christ, British Politics today is moving towards a Secret State owned by a rich and powerful anonymous few (like laws allowing un-named govt. bodies to read all your communications as a matter of course, like trial in camera without jury, like allowing the victim to set the punishment for the crime, with is vengence, not the law ...)

But none of that matters, because there's 'X Factor' or whatever on TV tonight!


I know ... I know ... but that is rather assuming that there was no good done in those centuries at all, and I think that's a terrible injustice to the common people ... but yes, I'm with Thomas Hardy:
" 'Peace upon earth!' was said.
We sing it,
And pay a million priests to bring it.
After two thousand years of mass
We've got as far as poison-gas.”
Christmas, 1924

The thing is, if I examine myself, I'm not sure I don't see the signs of what expresses itself in bureaucracies when they find themselves with too much power in their hands. I'm not sure I'm saint enough to take the job on, and it seems to me the saints made bloody asure they weren't put in that position, either!

But I do look for the light of the spirit, both human and Divine, no matter how dark and bleak the prospect. A reckless, impossible endeavour, but that's my Gaelic genes for you ...

God bless,

Thomas
 
Actually both Set and Horus the Elder were patrons of the two Egyptian lands (Upper & Lower) both revered gods. It wasn't until much later during the Osirian religion's reign did all that anti-Set stuff come about, and the new Horus was associated as the child of Isis & Osiris . . . it was political propaganda.
...and political propaganda still continues on in various forms down to this day. ;)

How does this fit in with separating oneself from the world (objective reality?) It seems that hanging on to this stuff, and picking open scabs is engaging oneself further in the world, and bringing up the old emnities is encouraging others to engage in the world--like how if you put a pot of crabs on to boil, the crabs in the pot will pull any crabs that try to climb out back into the pot.
 
But wasn't the Hebrew ha satan merely carrying out the orders of Yahweh?

Lucifer is first mentioned (under that name) in the writings of Origen (end of the second century) some two hundred years before Jerome puts it into his Latin text. Tertullian and others of the early fathers of the church also discuss Lucifer, so the connection between Lucifer and Satan was established some time prior to the end of the second century. Before the Latin text becomes widespread, however, the name Lucifer had a much more specific meaning. It was the name of Satan prior to his fall from glory. Origen explains that this is because prior to his fall, he was a being of light and thus it was an appropriate description of him. After his fall, Origen continues, he was no longer a being of light and became known as Satan.
Look again, buddy ...

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. But if I say the truth, you believe me not."
John 8:44

Now you can put whatever contemporary spin you like on these verses, what matters to me is what the sacred scribe is saying, and all the traditional commentary points to the fact that 'satan' and 'lucifer' and 'the father of lies' and 'a murderer from the beginning' all refer to one and the same:

"And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28.

Rather colourful language for the modern reader, but to the point in its day. The 'he' of this text is unmistakably the 'satan' of the Hebrew Tradition, who is none other than the 'Lucifier' of the Greek commentaries.

God bless,

Thomas
 
But wasn't the Hebrew ha satan merely carrying out the orders of Yahweh?
That's the way the Hebrew Tradition reasoned it to itself. It's evident Jesus had a different view altogether ...

Lucifer is first mentioned (under that name) in the writings of Origen (end of the second century) some two hundred years before Jerome puts it into his Latin text.
OK, but the devil, the prince of this world, is spoken of in Scripture. It's all one and the same.

Before the Latin text becomes widespread, however, the name Lucifer had a much more specific meaning. It was the name of Satan prior to his fall from glory. Origen explains that this is because prior to his fall, he was a being of light and thus it was an appropriate description of him. After his fall, Origen continues, he was no longer a being of light and became known as Satan.
OK. Again, he's working from Scripture, and human experience. We all know how 'glamourous' and 'attractive' evil can be, and it's evident that the discernment of spirits is no easy thing. If angels and devils wore different coloured hats like cowboys in the movies, it would be easy. But it's evident that to discern the difference requires more than a superficial or surface gaze.

Adam and Eve saw the fruit was good to eat ... how, exactly? They'd never tried it, so they didn't know what it tasted like. They assumed it was good because it looked scrumptious, and poor old Eve didn't have a mum to tell her appearances can be deceptive.

So the honeyed words of the tempter might well be delivered by the most stunningly good looking person one has ever met, entrancing, even, inspirational, intelligent, generous, humourous ... there's some flaw in the human psyche that's attracted to the 'bad guy' ...

The New Testament talks of 'the Prince of this world' in both John and Paul, and alludes to the idea elsewhere.

The 'problem' is how do you have a good God and an evil adversary without setting up a Manichean dualism? The Tradition preaches the idea of a 'fallen angel', as evil is by definition a moral ill — earthquakes and tsunamis, plagues and sicknesses are not evil as such — and thus requires a reflective intellect. Animals cannot be evil, they do not have (it would appear) that order of discernment (although when I think of our neighbour's cat, I'm not so sure ;))

So from the time of Christ and the Apostles there was a personage of evil — and although he might be known by many names, in principle it's one and the same thing. The King of Babylon in Isaiah, the King of Tyre in Ezekiel, are human persons motivated by an evil principle, personified in a person who is known by many names — Devil, Satan, Lucifer, Baal, whoever — but the principle, and the purpose, is the same — the murder of the human soul.

God bless

Thomas
 
Really? I have a very shallow understanding of shamanism, but I never put my understanding of the Christian sin on other religions. You wouldn't have read anywhere specificity about this?
I wouldn't go so far as to say the shaman treats sin as a Christian would, I think we have a very specific idea of sin (from our Hebrew Heritage) with some unhealthy subjective overtones drawn from Augustine's experience.

if you look at Church history, the Council of Trent, for example, tried to steer a course somewhere between the overly-subjective ideas of Augustine and the overly-objective notions of Aquinas, but I do think the notion of Original Sin is somewhat skewed by Augustine's rather dark psychological outlook.

I'm a fan of Augustine over Pelagius, cos if Pelagius is right, then you can count the number of people who get into heaven on the fingers of one hand, and still have some to spare! But I think Augustine ended up in a very dark place (and his supporters went even darker) in declaring the soul is damned before it's even drawn a breath, whereas my Orthodox brothers see it as a propensity to sin, an inherited weakness, rather than inherited guilt. Not so much born in sin, as born unable to resist it ... I think there's a massive difference.

I admit my knowledge of shamanism is limited, but what little I know of the Native American 'Peace Chief' for example is not only as a guide and spiritual director for the individual, but also as an intercessor and spiritual healer of the group — remembering that physical ailments wer seen as signs of a spiritual malaise.

Most ancient cultures saw time as cyclic, and their origins in a golden age when gods and man lived in harmony and balance, then things went wrong, and the shaman etc., tried to put things right.

Sin in the Christian Tradition is a moral evil, and requires the free assent of the will. So if someone's holding your mum hostage until you pinch some sweets from the shop, technically you've committed a crime, but not a sin, as the decision to steal the sweets was not willed by you — the moral burden of Sophie's choice can never rest of Sophie's shoulders, even though the guilt will ... look at the number of holocaust survivors who committed suicide because they survived. I pray God have mercy on their souls, in the certain faith that He already has ...

I think moral ill is recognised in all cultures, and there is a mechanism to address that with their gods, if that makes sense?

Back to Original Sin, if sin requires the free and knowledgeable assent of the will (knowledgeable does not offer the 'I didn't know' get out, any more than when one's kid is naughty and claims 'I didn't know', there is such a thing as common sense), then how can an unborn child be held culpable?

God bless,

Thomas
 
Before anyone thinks I've gone over to the Dark Side :)eek::D) and have just offered an argument that renders baptism unnecessary, I would point out that I regard Baptism as a Rite and a Mystery of Transcendence, opening up possibilities unavailable to the unaided human nature, even if that particular person be the most perfect, most lovely, most warm-hearted and wonderful and sweet-natured and generous human being.

I might also add that whilst Christ gave the Rite to His Church, and the authority to perform it, He, being the Boss, has the prior right to baptise whomsoever He chooses, whensoever He chooses, wheresoever He chooses, howsoever He chooses ... something made abundantly clear in Acts 8, and something which Peter found startlingly illuminative before it dawned on Saul of Tarsus that if the God of Israel is the God of all, then that same God is the God for all.

God bless

Thomas
 
Thank you very much, not only was it very clear but also very informative. This was basically my understanding also and a appreciate the clarification. Your explanation of sin is how I interpret what I know of the Bible. I do wish people here would listen more to your reasoning then their assumptions. (Not a stab at you Etu Malku, things here are very civil)
 
Are there any similarities between this "Holy Kiss" and the practice of proskynesis? According to this wikipedia article Proskynesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaproskynesis was originally a Persian practice that was adopted by Alexander the Great and Constantine and its used in Eastern Christianity.
 
Are there any similarities between this "Holy Kiss" and the practice of proskynesis? According to this wikipedia article Proskynesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaproskynesis was originally a Persian practice that was adopted by Alexander the Great and Constantine and its used in Eastern Christianity.

That's an interesting thought.

I could see how political leaders used to being prostrated to might view prostration to/adoration of statues or idols as some sort of political sarcasm! :eek:
 
That's an interesting thought.

I could see how political leaders used to being prostrated to might view prostration to/adoration of statues or idols as some sort of political sarcasm! :eek:

I think the general line of thinking is that for the Greeks proskynesis was restricted only to the gods, and led them to the belief that Persian rulers were seen as god(s) themselves. On a side note after doing a brief investigation I found it interesting that the interpretatia Anglica for Heb. Shalom (Arab. Salam) is peace via Gk. eirene "peace" and I guess Latin pax. But the fact seems to be that Augustine believed that Jesus' "Kiss of Peace" or "Holy Kiss" was meant to be a kiss on the lips and extended beyond family members, whereas there does not appear to be any evidence of a kiss on the lips in the OT, and moreover the kiss on the lips in the OT was restricted to family members, and maybe between kings and their subjects. Herodotus describes the kiss on the Persian custom of kissing on the lips was practiced among equals and seems to have extended to anyone. Could that have been the meaning of Augustine's version of the "Kiss of Peace."? I was a bit confused however because proskynesis apparently does not refer directly to kissing, but rather to the act of making obiesance. Herodotus describes three forms of proskeynesis 1. kissing on the lips between equals 2. kissing on the cheek if one partaker is inferior 3. falling to the ground if one is of "much lower status." Alexander appears to have adapted this this as prostration to a kiss on the cheek and by Roman times it was adapted into a kiss of the feet. But even Jesus' followers are described as kissing his feet. But was it proskynesis?
 
After further investigation it would appear that there was a Aryan Persian element in the development of the "Kiss of Peace." I did find evidence of an OT reference to a kiss on the mouth... in the Song of Solomon: "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth:
For thy love is better than wine." A connection between the name of Solomon and the Heb. Shalom "peace" has been made. However Persian and Greek loans in the the Song of Solomon, itself, points to a composition of the text in the post-exilic period. This means that the Persian custom of kissing as a form of veneration and respect (e.g. proskynesis distinguished from prospiptein "to fall down at another’s feet, prostrate oneself") probably led to the adaption in Judaic culture of kissing on the cheek among family to kissing on the mouth (previously unaccounted for in OT texts) as in the Song of Solomon and Augustine's Sermon 227.
 
Scrap my previous post. The kiss on the mouth in the Song of Solomon is a kiss between male and female... unless this kiss is given in some sort of religious context (and could have been applied between males) as wikipedia seems to imply.

Speaking of the "Kiss of Peace" what about the "Kiss of Respect." Popular culture appears to portray Greeks and Italians as big kissers (between males). Does this have anything to do with the "Kiss of Peace"?Apparently it's a European tradition, but I don't get that impression. Like I don't get the feeling its big in places like England for example.
 
Try going to Southeast Asia, especially the Indonesian and Ta'i parts. Be ready for a lot of male-male hand-holding (especially in the hinderlands) and kissing. It will change your point of view of male-to-male bonding.
 
Try going to Southeast Asia, especially the Indonesian and Ta'i parts. Be ready for a lot of male-male hand-holding (especially in the hinderlands) and kissing. It will change your point of view of male-to-male bonding.

I don't doubt that. I've been to Southeast Asia and though I can't see the custom was frequent I'm pretty sure I've witnessed it on occasion. From what I understand this male-male hand holding is also an aspect of Irano-Afghan culture, but somehow I don't get the impression that male-male kissing on the lips is a current practice. Male-male kissing on the cheek is quite frequent I'm sure. I even recall this custom amongst politicians in the US. But was it always an aspect of European culture e.g. Greek and Roman (I don't think its a Germanic custom) or was it a Christian influence?

Going back to the "Kiss of Peace" and its relationship to the Song of Solomon.... I recalled that Augustine was once a Manichean and Mani claimed Irano-Afghan descent. So I did a search for Manicheasm and kissing, and was interested to learn that in Manicheasm there was a kiss on the mouth called the "Kiss of Love" which was received by people close to death, but here again the kiss was from a female angel so it was female-male kiss on the mouth. This makes me think that there was something to the kiss on the mouth in the Song of Solomon (Solomon: Shalom "peace") and the "kiss of peace." It might not have mattered that in both cases Song of Solomon and Manicheasm that the kiss on the mouth being described was female-male. Its possible that this influenced Augustines version of the "Kiss of Peace." I get the impression that in all cultures including the Persian (which looks to be the oldest report on a male-male kiss on the mouth) the kiss was adapted to a kiss on the cheek, probably because the kiss on the mouth was too close for comfort.
 
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