What is in a name? Palestine, Canann, or Israel.

[Amergin]

The names Israel, Palestine, and Canaan are just transient periods of history. I will call it the Jordan River-Dead Sea Transform Rift Valley. That is a lot to say. So I will use the letters JRDSTR Valley.

The earliest human remains in JRDSTR Valley were found in Ubeidiya, some 3 km south of the Sea of Galilee in the Jordan Rift Valley. The remains are dated to the Pleistocene, ca. 1.5 million years ago. It shows evidence of the earliest migration of Homo erectus out of Africa. Humans from Africa (where all humans first evolved.) We have no way to know what Erectus, Neanderthal, and the 45,000 years of modern non-Semitic human settlers called it. Here is why?

Mount Carmel has yielded several important findings, among them Kebara Cave that was inhabited between 60,000 – 48,000 years ago and where the most complete Neanderthal skeleton found to date. The Tabun cave was occupied intermittently during the Lower and Middle Paleolithic ages (500,000 to around 40,000 years ago). Excavation suggests that it features one of the longest sequences of human occupation in the Levant. There are human burials and ground stone tools. Early Homo erectus passed through on his way to conquer Eurasia. This also represents one area where Neanderthals – present in the region from 200,000 to 45,000 years ago – lived alongside modern humans dating to 100,000 years ago.

It seems that modern humans once drove out the Neanderthals from the area, but the Neanderthals subsequently recovered the cave area until after 45,000 years ago when Homo sapiens became the only human inhabitans of the JRDSTR Valley to this day.

I do not think we should argue about what passed inhabitans called JRDSTR Valley. Canaan, Israel, Judah, Philistia (Greek Seleucid name,) Romans adopted a version of the Greek name Philistia for the region. Within that region different kingdoms ruled, Syrians, Phoenicians, Moabites, Philistines, Israel, Judah, and the Arabs called it Palestine or Bilad Ash'Sham (Holy Land.)

THE LESSON: WHAT IS IN A NAME?

Amergin

 

[bananabrain]

that's all very nice, but so what?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Amergin]

.

that's all very nice, but so what?;/QUOTE]


I get sick of rabid Zionists making so much bullshit about their claim to Palestine. These idiots argue over the f*cking name of the Jordan River Dead Sea transform rift valley.

Jews have no legitimate claim to that valley excluding all other native peoples. They may have a right to live there, to migrate from Europe to there, as long as they obey the laws and cease ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

If I were a US citizen, I would be angry that the AIPAC is a treasonous organization that buys your shallow politicians. They put the interests of the European Jewish State of Israel over the needs of America. Many blame 9-11 on Arab Muslim Terrorists, Al Qaeda. Your CIA trained Al Qaeda to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. However, your blank cheque support of Israel and US occupation of sacred Muslims lands for the protection of Israel is what made Bin Ladin target New York. Thus, you somewhat brought this on America and London by backing a Jewish European Invasion of an Arab speaking land of Muslims and Christians. The brutal behaviour of Israelis, driving native peoples into exile or filthy refugee camps, bull dozing Arab homes, building alien Jewish settlements on the West Bank, firing artillery, bombing civilian Arab villages, using tanks and jet fighter-bombers against kids throwing rocks is all WRONG.

I want my country and America to declare Neutrality in the war between Israelis and Native Arab Muslims and Christians. I did not vote to send European Jews to invade the Jordan River Dead Sea Rift Valley. My father, mother, and grandparents did not vote to permit the invasion of Palestine or the JRDSRValley. You have wasted billions of dollars, wrecking your economy (and Europe's) to aid the bad guys on both sides of that conflict. I do not care who wins. There are no GOOD GUYS.

B'shalom? Is that Portuguese for bull shit? Or is it just a really mucously sneeze?

Amergin

 

[bananabrain]

amergin.

a zionist is someone who thinks that jews have a right to national self-determination as jews. no more, no less. if you believe that palestinians and lebanese and syrians and egyptians have that right, then so do we. any number of excesses are also attributed to zionism, most of which are inevitable concomitants of being a nation-state surrounded by state and non-state actors who object to its existence. however, these are not restricted to zionism.

there are a number of reasons why zionists "lay claim" to the "rift valley area", as you call it. firstly, that is where jews are from. secondly, that is where a significant modern jewish population grew up from about the mid-1800s. thirdly, the national self-determination argument. fourthly, there was a partition plan in 1947 that gave it a basis in international law. fifthly, because the state is there and sod anyone who dislikes it. now, personally, all of these have significance for me, but i also believe in the biblical claim, as do millions of others, although i accept that it is not actionable in any form of law. however, none of these preclude the zionist state from being a liberal democracy, which, indeed, it is, although obviously far from a perfect one.

anyway, the point is that none of these claims actually involve "excluding" all other peoples and, frankly, your assertion that israel is "ethnically cleansing" the area is simply not borne out by the facts. the only ethnic cleansing that has gone on recently in the area has been of jews being forcibly removed from the gaza strip. if israel is an ethnic cleanser, it's fecking *rubbish* at it, as there are still a million arab, druze, circassian and various other ethnic minority citizens of israel, to say nothing of all the palestinians that still seem to live over the green line. this is simply hysterical language.

you also seem to insist on labouring under the misapprehension that i am american. i am not. i am british. now you may very well think that aipac is too powerful, but so is the nra and the oil lobby, the NAACP and a whole bunch of other lobbies. i hardly think you can single out the evil zionists on this one.

However, your blank cheque support of Israel and US occupation of sacred Muslims lands for the protection of Israel is what made Bin Ladin target New York.

this is quite simply not true. bin laden only got interested in the palestinians relatively late in the game. you should read jason burke's excellent book on the subject. and if you think that "sacred muslim lands" deserve respect, then what about "sacred jewish lands"? double standards much?

i'm not going to get involved in defending israeli conduct in the west bank - there are a hell of a lot of problems that israel has brought upon itself by the way it has tried to perpetuate the occupation and the sooner it's sorted out the better - that is why i support the ray hanania peace plan. how about you, amergin? or are you just interested in spewing bile everywhere? as a starter for ten, do you think that the putative "state of palestine" should be a state for all its citizens? should it have jewish citizens? if so, do you support razing the settlements, or integrating their inhabitants into a strong, pluralistic and democratic palestinian civil society? just asking, y'know.

I want my country and America to declare Neutrality in the war between Israelis and Native Arab Muslims and Christians.

what about native jews? we're natives too, or aren't you aware of the genetics or sociolinguistics or cultural history? and how about the war between arab muslims and arab christians? are you aware of that one?

I did not vote to send European Jews to invade the Jordan River Dead Sea Rift Valley.

i don't think anyone voted for that. i also think you're rather ignoring the iraqi, syrian, egyptian, lebanese, iranian, jordanian, turkish, algerian, tunisian, ethiopian, kurdish, uzbek or indian jews who make up half the jewish population of israel. perhaps you think they should go back where they came from, eh?

B'shalom? Is that Portuguese for bull shit? Or is it just a really mucously sneeze?

it means "in peace". really, amergin, the way you write, it's like the big vein in your temple is just about to pop.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[radarmark]

Amerigin --

Rein it in please, you are really offending me (and that takes a lot). There were historical Jewish communities at the time of the mandate, and lot more Jews came in with international sanction. So please, whining about the 1947 decision is rather ludicrous. It is like saying “if we had just let N Korea have its way, everything on the peninsula would be hunky-dory”. It just does not pass the smell test.

Whereas Israel brought in a million or so Sephardic Jews (from Morocco to Iran), did the Arab states offer the Palestinians anything? HINT: heck no, Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan kept them in concentration camps (in the Boer War not WWII sense).

There is more than enough blame to share between both Arab and Israeli an d a lot is driven by the historical choices the UN made in 1947. The issue is not now (and I argue has never been since 1947) one between just Arab and Israeli.

 

[Amergin]

amergin.

a zionist is someone who thinks that jews have a right to national self-determination as jews.

I agree, the Jews have a right to national self-determination. That does not mean founding a nation exclusively for Jews and expelling all Native Non-Jews (Muslims and Christians). That does not include terrorist attacks by Irgun and the Stern Gang blowing up Arab children's school buses, bull dozing native homes and orchards, forcing natives to leave the country in which they have lived for hundreds or thousands of years. It does not mean putting Jewish settlements on Arab lands. Aparteid was wrong in South Africa and it is wrong in the Jordan River Rift Valley, an Islamic region since 634 CE. Americans did not have the right to attempt extermination of Native Americans by use of cholera, guns, and European style armies, forced tragic expulsions (Trail of Tears.) Americans also established reservations for the Natives just as South Africans and Jews did, in the Jordan River Rift Valley.

there are a number of reasons why zionists "lay claim" to the "rift valley area", as you call it. firstly, that is where jews are from

Wrong. The Jews are (or were) Semites, all of whom originated from the Proto-Arabs of Arabia several millennia ago. Most Jews since 1800 grew up in Europe not the Jordan Rift Valley.

fifthly, because the state is there and sod anyone who dislikes it. now, personally, all of these have significance for me, but i also believe in the biblical claim

The Bible is Jewish Mythology and even it supports the myth that Abraham came to the Rift Valley no more than 2200 BC.

however, none of these preclude the zionist state from being a liberal democracy, which, indeed, it is, although obviously far from a perfect one.

Israel is not a democracy. It gives citizenship to only to immigrants who are Jewish. That makes it a Theocracy. Muslims and Christians who lived there before the UN Partition are treated as second-class subjects (not citizens). Arab Muslims and Christians had no legal recourse to Israelis stealing their ancient homes, orchards, and lifestock. Who protected these Muslims and Christian Natives from being forced by fear and violence to flee their country and end up in squalid refugee camps. Did the European Jews paradoxically learn too much from the Nazi Final Solution.

anyway, the point is that none of these claims actually involve "excluding" all other peoples

Can a Polish Catholic (non-Semitic) or a Norwegian Lutheran get citizenship in Israel?

your assertion that israel is "ethnically cleansing" the area is simply not borne out by the facts. the only ethnic cleansing that has gone on recently in the area has been of jews being forcibly removed from the gaza strip. if israel is an ethnic cleanser, it's fecking *rubbish* at it, as there are still a million arab, druze, circassian and various other ethnic minority citizens of israel, to say nothing of all the palestinians that still seem to live over the green line. this is simply hysterical language.

I did not invent the West Bank Jewish settlements. I did not invent the claim of Israel to all of Jerusalem. I did not invent the news videos of Israeli bull dosers demolishing hundreds of Native homes to make room for Jewish houses. I did not invent the Irgun or Stern Gang terrorising the native people to flee to neighbouring countries or concentration camps called refugee camps. I did not invent Ariel Sharon ordering Lebanise Christian Militants to raid Palestinian refugee camps in South Lebanon killing thousands. Why did the UN not impose economic sanctions of Israel (because of the US veto?)

you also seem to insist on labouring under the misapprehension that i am american. i am not. i am british.

Sorry, no offence intended.

now you may very well think that aipac is too powerful, but so is the nra and the oil lobby, the NAACP and a whole bunch of other lobbies. i hardly think you can single out the evil zionists on this one.

I would oppose all of those lobbies if I were a US citizen. The difference that should offend Americans is that AIPAC is very wealthy, powerful, and has extensive control over US congressmen and congresswomen. These crooked politicians take AIPAC money, get rich, and the US taxpayers money goes to Israel in economic aid packages. American Jews have a right to send billions of dollars to their religious kin in the Jordan Rift Valley. However, they get tax breaks for that huge "private charity," while non-Jewish Americans end up paying higher taxes.

this is quite simply not true. bin laden only got interested in the palestinians relatively late in the game. you should read jason burke's excellent book on the subject. and if you think that "sacred muslim lands" deserve respect, then what about "sacred jewish lands"? double standards much?

Right. The CIA trained Al Qaeda to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. After the expulsion of the Russians, Bin Ladin focused his anger on the Saudi Monarchy because of its economic ties to the West (US and UK mainly). Bin Ladin opposed stationing US and UK (infidel) troops on the sacred land of Arabia before and during the two gulf wars against Iraq. He opposed their being in Arabia. He opposed America also for its economic and military support of Israel in the past and now. The support we and the Americans supplied to Israel were the major cause (excuse is less accurate) for anger at America, Britain, and France. When bombs and missiles (made in America, or by Israel with US help) fell on Arab civilian communities, it was hard to not be fecked off at the US and us.

do you think that the putative "state of palestine" should be a state for all its citizens? should it have jewish citizens? if so, do you support razing the settlements, or integrating their inhabitants into a strong, pluralistic and democratic palestinian civil society? just asking, y'know.

In current populations where they are, I oppose any government endorsing Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. I oppose any government giving preferential treatment under the law to one Ethno-religious people over another. I favour a secular republic with a parliamentary democracy in which Muslims and Jews could compete for benches. It would require a Constitution much like that of America or Ireland with absolute separation of Church and State. Sadly, the Constitution is ignored in America, a de facto Theocracy.

what about native jews? we're natives too, or aren't you aware of the genetics or sociolinguistics or cultural history? and how about the war between arab muslims and arab christians? are you aware of that one?

I am quite aware of that. I think all Jews who are in the Rift Valley now, should be considered Native NOW. All residents of the region who were born in the Jordan Rift Valley as Muslims or Christians should also be considered Native. It includes Druse as well. What is so bad about that? I am not aware of any major war between Arab Muslims and Arab Christians. There is discrimination by Muslims against non-Muslims in Egypt, Lebanon, and Iraq. There was not in Assad's Syria, where Christians were protected. Muslim intolerance is a major problem. We need to stop aiding Islamist Nations.

i don't think anyone voted for that. i also think you're rather ignoring the iraqi, syrian, egyptian, lebanese, iranian, jordanian, turkish, algerian, tunisian, ethiopian, kurdish, uzbek or indian jews who make up half the jewish population of israel. perhaps you think they should go back where they came from, eh?

No. I don't believe in rewriting history. Native Americans cannot deport all those of European ancestry. We Celts in Britain cannot expel all descendants of Anglo-Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Norwegians, Frisians, and French. By now most of us in Britain have some relatives in several of those groups. I am Culturally Celtic but likely have some Norwegian genes (the Earldom of Orkney.) And while Celtic and Gaelic speaking, I acknowledge having pre-Celtic ancestors before the Indo-European invasions of Celts. They were the builders of Stonehenge, Newgrange, the Standing Stones of the Isle of Lewis and Clava Cairns. We all contain a few or more genes from far away, perhaps Mongolia, Somalia, China, and other groups. Hitler was fecked up. There is no pure race.

it means "in peace". really, amergin, the way you write, it's like the big vein in your temple is just about to pop.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Air do dheagh shlàinte! (Good health to you.)

Amergin

 

[radarmark]

I get sick of rabid Zionists making so much bullshit about their claim to Palestine. What is a Zionist in your opinion, I believe you are painting with a rather broad brush. Historically it is just someone who wanted the Jews to have a homeland. And I do believe your rather tilted view comes out when you make it “Zionists” versus “Palestine. These idiots argue over the f*cking name of the Jordan River Dead Sea transform rift valley. No indication of who the idiots are so I assume Zionists are the “idiots”. Again, your view is clearly non-objective.

Jews have no legitimate claim to that valley excluding all other native peoples. As a matter of international law and treaty, they do, see Resolution 181 in 1947. Like the later partition of India, religious differences came into play. But now India harbors the third largest Muslim population in the world and Israel a large non-Jewish population (over 20%). By comparison, find the number of Jews living in any of the adjacent countries (the vast majority were welcomed into Israel). There would have been (under 181) a separate Arab state, except that Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt annexed those lands in 1947. They may have a right to live there, to migrate from Europe to there, as long as they obey the laws and cease ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. The vast majority of immigrants since 1947 have been non-European (Sephardic and Ethiopian).

If I were a US citizen, I would be angry that the AIPAC is a treasonous organization that buys your shallow politicians. AIPAC is no more treasonous than the many ethic or international organizations that lobby like those for the UK or the EU or the Italian American Anti-Defamation League or Sinn Fein—yep, some politicians are bought, but probably by corporations, not so much by ethnic lobbyists. They put the interests of the European Jewish State of Israel over the needs of America. Hard to believe that Ted Kennedy or Barry Goldwater (both of whom had AIPAC connections) ever put the U.S. in second place. What is the proof of your side of the argument? You can make all the hyperbolic claims you want, but without exaples it is just fluff. Many blame 9-11 on Arab Muslim Terrorists, Al Qaeda. Your CIA trained Al Qaeda to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. Not quite true, yes the CIA provided logistics support against the Soviets, but not one member was ever allowed to operate in Afghanistan to train the Mudj. Most training was done by and for the ISI. However, your blank cheque support of Israel and US occupation of sacred Muslims lands for the protection of Israel is what made Bin Ladin target New York. First of all, if you bother to look up real history, the U.S. financial support of Israel was swamped by Soviet, European and pan-Arabic support of the bordering states and (if I remember correctly, oh wait, I was there) the U.S. involvement in Kuwait was at Kuwaiti and Saudi insistence (not to support Israel, who did not want us there because our presence would and did lead to Hussein targeting them). Thus, you somewhat brought this on America and London by backing a Jewish European Invasion of an Arab speaking land of Muslims and Christians. Possibly a contributing factor, but all the al-Qaeda and UBL justifications fail to mention this. The brutal behaviour of Israelis, driving native peoples into exile or filthy refugee camps, bull dozing Arab homes, building alien Jewish settlements on the West Bank, firing artillery, bombing civilian Arab villages, using tanks and jet fighter-bombers against kids throwing rocks is all WRONG. Historically it was the Arab leaders and Grand Mufti who told the Palestinians to move. It was Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt who created and maintained the camps and did not allow a Palestinian State to form. They could have integrated the Palestinians into their countries as Israelis integrated the Moroccan, Iraqi and Yemeni Jews. Could have, did not for political reasons. Oh, again, this was primarily a non-European influx of Jews. Why are you hung up on “European Jewry” when Israel is not a majority European? The Arab occupiers in Gaza and the West Bank (look over the old newsreel coverage or look up Black September in Jordan) were really no less brutal.

I want my country and America to declare Neutrality in the war between Israelis and Native Arab Muslims and Christians. Fine, you like in a democracy, do it. I did not vote to send European Jews to invade the Jordan River Dead Sea Rift Valley. My father, mother, and grandparents did not vote to permit the invasion of Palestine or the JRDSRValley. Two things, your or your parents’ support for an International Treaty is not a requirement, your government actually abstained in 1947. And, once again, this is not a European versus Middle Eastern problem—the vast majority of Jews in Israel are either no-European in ancestry or four or five generations removed from the Holocaust, hence not European (born and bred in Israel). You have wasted billions of dollars, wrecking your economy (and Europe's) to aid the bad guys on both sides of that conflict. I do not care who wins. There are no GOOD GUYS. I really doubt if the aid provided to the Middle East is much more than a few tens of a percent of what the financial losses were due to the 2008 recession, so aid did not bankrupt the U.S. or E.U. Indeed, there are no really good guys, just a matter of relatively better or worse

B'shalom? Is that Portuguese for bull shit? Or is it just a really mucously sneeze? This bit of pettiness along with the obvious slam of “Palestine versus Zionist” at the beginning really just say something (not very flattering) about yourself and have no bearing on the discussion.

 

[bananabrain]

That does not mean founding a nation exclusively for Jews and expelling all Native Non-Jews (Muslims and Christians).

they haven't. as i said, israel has numerous non-jewish citizens, so clearly that hasn't happened. according to wikipedia (not the best source, but the most accessible), only 75% of israelis are jews and 20% of the rest are arabs (1.6m).

That does not include terrorist attacks by Irgun and the Stern Gang blowing up Arab children's school buses, bull dozing native homes and orchards, forcing natives to leave the country in which they have lived for hundreds or thousands of years.

and none of which, to the extent that they occurred i support.

It does not mean putting Jewish settlements on Arab lands.

which implies that everyone has the same definition of "jewish settlements" and "arab lands". if it was bought, it's not "arab land". much of it was. if you're hamas, however, even tel aviv counts as a "jewish settlement". as far as i'm concerned, the ones that are up for discussion are the ones on the wrong side of the green line.

Aparteid was wrong in South Africa and it is wrong in the Jordan River Rift Valley, an Islamic region since 634 CE.

well, spain was an "islamic region" since 722 ce, i believe there are lots of islamists still upset by that, but bad cess to them. besides, israel was a "jewish region" since the bronze age. and israel simply does not operate apartheid. you clearly don't understand what apartheid was if you make comparisons like that. it's more hysterical language. it's not even clear. are you talking about the israeli arabs? i mean, my cousins' local hospital director in nahariya is an arab. there are arabs in the knesset and in the national sports teams and eurovision entries. i don't think that's something you would have seen in south africa. if you're talking palestinians in the west bank, that's a different matter, but the edifice of apartheid which intended to separate blacks and whites in every minutely regulated part of life was quite different. even such a noted critic of israel as richard goldstone cannot let this pass.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/israel-and-the-apartheid-slander.html?_r=2&ref=opinion

as much as i do not feel that criticism of much of israeli activities, state-sponsored and otherwise, is unwarranted, so let us dispense with this comparison as what it is - a student politics debating tactic. i really think you ought to read this article, as it cuts through a lot of the muddy thinking much in vogue with the anti-israel crowd right now:

When the Right Is Right About the Left ? The Jewish Daily Forward

i am in no sense as much of a bleeding-heart liberal as the author, but he certainly calls it like it is, it seems to me.

The Jews are (or were) Semites, all of whom originated from the Proto-Arabs of Arabia several millennia ago.

it is you that is wrong. the word "semite" has no meaning outside sociolinguistics; there is no ethnic group known as "semites", only "semitic languages".

Most Jews since 1800 grew up in Europe not the Jordan Rift Valley.

at least half of israeli jews, as i have already pointed out, are not of european origin. i myself, although i am not israeli, am on my mother's side from an iraqi/kurdish/indian jewish family. but then again, you seem to find non-european jews inconvenient for your arguments.

Israel is not a democracy.

all its citizens can and do vote. there are several "arab parties" - many arabs also vote (surprisingly enough to an outsider) for likud, labour, kadima and even shas. this is blinkered in the most spectacular fashion.

It gives citizenship to only to immigrants who are Jewish. That makes it a Theocracy. Can a Polish Catholic (non-Semitic) or a Norwegian Lutheran get citizenship in Israel?

where to start with this nonsense? firstly, the law of return (to which i presume you refer) simply offers automatic citizenship to anyone who had one jewish grandparent. this is a) not the religious definition of being jewish (and hence not "theocratic") and b) precisely the criterion for extermination under the nazis. secondly, the fact that the law of return exists does not preclude non-jews from applying for citizenship through normal channels like anywhere else in the world and, indeed, many have done so. as israel is the only jewish state on the planet, it makes sense for jews to have a particular claim on citizenship.

Muslims and Christians who lived there before the UN Partition are treated as second-class subjects (not citizens). Arab Muslims and Christians had no legal recourse to Israelis stealing their ancient homes, orchards, and lifestock.

certainly the society is not as equal as it could be, but from the way you talk, it is amazing that there are any arabs left in israel at all, let alone 20% of the citizenry.

Who protected these Muslims and Christian Natives from being forced by fear and violence to flee their country and end up in squalid refugee camps.

i notice you don't ask why their so-called "brothers" are still keeping them in those "squalid refugee camps" 50 years later. israel absorbed the jewish refugees that came to it. why don't the arabs do the same? could it be that they prefer to use the palestinians as a stick to beat the israelis with? that's certainly how many of the palestinians i know feel about it.

Did the European Jews paradoxically learn too much from the Nazi Final Solution.

oh, i don't know. perhaps when you find yellow stars, concentration camps with guards, barracks, barbed wire, dogs, crematoria, systematic starvation, slave labour, medical experiments and people being shipped around in cattle cars to mass executions, you might be entitled to make nonsensical statements like that.

I did not invent the West Bank Jewish settlements. I did not invent the claim of Israel to all of Jerusalem. I did not invent the news videos of Israeli bull dosers demolishing hundreds of Native homes to make room for Jewish houses. I did not invent the Irgun or Stern Gang terrorising the native people to flee to neighbouring countries

to the extent that these things happened in the way you suggest, i do not excuse them. unfortunately, your view of this is entirely one-sided. the interesting thing of course is that while there is plenty of jewish and indeed israeli sentiment that sympathises with it, there is absolutely no arab or palestinian sentiment that criticises the actions of their armed groups and leadership, to say nothing of the problems in their civil society.

I did not invent Ariel Sharon ordering Lebanese Christian Militants to raid Palestinian refugee camps in South Lebanon killing thousands.

er... actually, you did. he didn't instigate this, although he did know enough about it to prevent it happening and failed to do so, for which he was censured by the kahan commission and caused him to spend many years in the political wilderness. he did not however "order" it to happen. can you find even one example of a palestinian politician being censured for being an accessory to murder?

The difference that should offend Americans is that AIPAC is very wealthy, powerful, and has extensive control over US congressmen and congresswomen. These crooked politicians take AIPAC money, get rich, and the US taxpayers money goes to Israel in economic aid packages.

i will pass over your protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion trope and merely point out that to the extent that is true, it is also true of the other lobby groups i mentioned.

However, they get tax breaks for that huge "private charity," while non-Jewish Americans end up paying higher taxes.

yes and i suppose that there aren't any islamic or arab or, well, irish or polish or italian charitable donations heading back to the old country!

The support we and the Americans supplied to Israel were the major cause (excuse is less accurate) for anger at America, Britain, and France.

actually, "excuse" is the perfect word to describe the pathology.

When bombs and missiles (made in America, or by Israel with US help) fell on Arab civilian communities, it was hard to not be fecked off at the US and us.

and when bombs and missiles supplied by iran, syria and simply manufactured domestically go off on israel (i think at least a dozen rockets have been fired since the start of the olympics, incidentally) presumably you think the israelis should laugh it off? what you seem to fail to understand is that *any excuse will do* for some people. there is nothing, *nothing* that the US or israel - or the UK - could do that would satisfy our enemies and make them leave us alone. it is far easier to blame the "crusader-zionist alliance" for all your problems than actually address them. look at syria. look at the arab spring, for feck's sake. until these people actually fecking grow up and decide that peace, commerce and r&d is more important than vengeance, this stuff will continue - and there isn't a damn thing that we can do about it other than kill ourselves right now and i don't know about you, but i'm not enamoured by the option to convert or die. i will only observe further that the horror of israel and america is not shared by those in search of technology or work permits. it is ridiculous when you consider how talented the palestinian entrepreneur community actually is.

I am not aware of any major war between Arab Muslims and Arab Christians.

there's a country called "lebanon". ever heard of it? and did you know that since the PA took control of bethlehem, christians have been leaving? their numbers have dropped by more than 30% since 1997:

Christians leave Bethlehem amid increasing pressure from Muslim forces - NYPOST.com

and the copts in egypt?

Analysis: Egypt’s Copts see power vacuum allowing oppression | FaithWorld

and of course, you will be abundantly aware of how well minority shi'a are treated in majority sunni states and vice-versa...

i will say it again: i do not think israel is perfect, but interventions like the sort that you constantly make do nothing whatsoever to help. i suggest you start exposing yourself to other news sources than counterpunch, indymedia and electronic intifada.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Servetus]

If I were a US citizen, I would be angry that the AIPAC is a treasonous organization that buys your shallow politicians. They put the interests of the European Jewish State of Israel over the needs of America. Many blame 9-11 on Arab Muslim Terrorists, Al Qaeda. Your CIA trained Al Qaeda to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. However, your blank cheque support of Israel and US occupation of sacred Muslims lands for the protection of Israel is what made Bin Ladin target New York. Thus, you somewhat brought this on America and London by backing a Jewish European Invasion of an Arab speaking land of Muslims and Christians. The brutal behaviour of Israelis, driving native peoples into exile or filthy refugee camps, bull dozing Arab homes, building alien Jewish settlements on the West Bank, firing artillery, bombing civilian Arab villages, using tanks and jet fighter-bombers against kids throwing rocks is all WRONG.

Amen, bro! Glad to see you back in church!



Serv

 

[Servetus]

... now you may very well think that aipac is too powerful, but so is the nra and the oil lobby, the NAACP and a whole bunch of other lobbies. i hardly think you can single out the evil zionists on this one.

One thing about it, neither the NRA nor the NAACP, for instance, has produced such a nest of spies as has AIPAC.

Serv

 

[bananabrain]

ah, the "dual loyalty" trope. i love that one too. are you suggesting that jonathan pollard's activities were being directed by aipac? i think that one is new. and, of course no other ally of america ever spies on it, or vice-versa.

good night - and good luck.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[radarmark]

You go, bro! bb, have to love your logic.

 

[Amergin]

ah, the "dual loyalty" trope. i love that one too. are you suggesting that jonathan pollard's activities were being directed by aipac? i think that one is new. and, of course no other ally of america ever spies on it, or vice-versa.

good night - and good luck.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Most European Countries have tried to be neutral in the Arab-Israeli conflict. I prefer that as well. We have no right to aid either side in this senseless conflict. We (UK) caused much of this to happen by betrayal of the Native Palestinians as well as Jordanians, and Iraqis. Our country promised them independence for the WWI alliance against the Ottoman Sultanate. We lied. We took over those lands blocking their independence.

The Palestine Mandate and Transjordan Mandate were immoral. I understand why they hate us. We cause it. Then we washed our hands and put on our blinders.

The "Jewish" invasion was aided and aggravated by Great Britain. It was stupid policy. We did not try to eliminate the Irgun or Stern Gangs of Jewish terrorists.

Then the USA stepped up. America is the largest Jewish Population in the world. They have given much support to the New Israeli Nation. Many American Jews left and settled in Israel. They maintained dual citizenship. Worse yet is how they used the wealth of their American kin to privately aid Israel. That is legal.

However, they used money to form organizations like AIPAC about as wealthy as the NRA. They bought US politicians. Their lobbyists bribed US congressmen to vote for Israeli interests. They used their numerous populations in key states to pressure candidates to be Pro-Israel. Failure to be loudly Pro- Israel meant the huge swing vote that would defeat any candidate advocating fair and balanced view on Israel-Palestine. Obama and Romney compete to be the most aggressive Pro-Israel agent.

What would happen to a politician who advocated sanctions against Israel for the Gaza blockade, illegal Israeli settlements on land the UN allotted to the Native Palestinians? That candidate would lose big time.

Israel seems to be politically united to the USA. Israel is the 51st State. They always call Israel the State of Israel. Nevertheless, Russia, Germany, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan are all called the Republic of ---- or the Kingdom of ----. Israel is the only entity called the State of Israel. Americans consider Israel their 51st state. However, I think that the USA is an Israeli Client State. The little tall wags the big dog.

I advise Americans to reconsider their de facto alliance with Israel. Israel is called an "ally" by US politicians. That mistake isolates America in the world. I would advise good relations with Israel, and good relations with Palestine-Gaza, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.

Your policy is costing America in much of the world. Invasions of Countries that you do not like (Iraq, Afghanistan) are not worth the cost. US Wars cost many a thousand million dollars contributing to its Economic crisis. That money would be better used "nation building" in Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee, Arkansas, and the 50 million without health care.

I do not like wars. We, the Americans, and other Europeans have only made things worse in the Jordan River Transform Rift Valley. The main victims on both sides are often women and children. Do any of you understand how I feel?

Amergin

 

[Servetus]

One thing about it, neither the NRA nor the NAACP, for instance, has produced such a nest of spies as has AIPAC.

ah, the "dual loyalty" trope.

Ah, the old switcheroo. In this case, you switch the focus from what I actually said and respond with a non sequitur. My point is that lobbyists for the NRA and NAACP are not lobbying for a foreign government. In some cases, lobbyists for AIPAC are. Your above comparison, then, falls flat.

But to respond to your fascinating and of course by its nature highly controversial non sequitur, what is so tropish about "dual loyalty?" Although it is little remembered now, the fact remains that, at one point, especially during the Milner Draft of the Balfour Declaration, the staunchest opposition to Chaim Weizmann -and other Zionists- came from especially British Jews such as Edwin Montagu who were pleased to be British, thank you, and who did not wish to be made de facto citizens of the fledgling "national homeland" for the Jews then being established in Palestine. Wrote Montagu: "Zionism has always seemed to me to be a mischievous political creed, untenable by any patriotic citizen of the United Kingdom. (Source)" Amen, Bro Montagu!

i love that one too.

It is a loveable rabbit you pulled from your magician's top hat.

are you suggesting that jonathan pollard's activities were being directed by aipac?

I have neither mentioned Pollard nor made any such suggestions. The Washington Post article I linked mentions, by name, Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman. They are, or were, senior employees of AIPAC. I was focused on them.

But now that you mention it, I will say that I consider Pollard a seditious scumbag and I hope he rots in prison. Interestingly enough, he considers himself a so called "prisoner of Zion," a unique legal status, thus proving, to my mind, that Zionism and America's interests are sometimes seriously at odds, given that, according to Caspar Weinberger, Pollard did irreparable damage to America and to its security.

i think that one is new.

It is new. You just pulled it from your hat. I never said anything about Pollard.

and, of course no other ally of america ever spies on it, or vice-versa.

You compared AIPAC to NRA and the NAACP, not the Scottish Lovers of the Fatherland Committee (SLFC). However, in memory of the late and redoubtable Gore Vidal, who memorably called Norman Podhoretz and his wife, Midge Decter, "Fifth Columnists" for Israel, I quote him:

Since spades may not be called spades in freedom’s land, let me spell it all out. In order to get military and economic support for Israel, a small number of American Jews, who should know better, have made common cause with every sort of reactionary and anti-Semitic group in the United States, from the corridors of the Pentagon to the TV studios of the evangelical Jesus-Christers. To show that their hearts are in the far-right place, they call themselves neoconservatives, and attack the likes of Mailer and me, all in the interest of supporting the likes of Sharon and Israel as opposed to the Peace Now Israelis whom they disdain. There is real madness here; mischief too ... Although there is nothing wrong with being a lobbyist for a foreign power, one is supposed to register with the Justice Department ...

I wonder if Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman were registered with the Justice Department as lobbyists for a foreign power?

good night - and good luck.

Good luck with what? Your lovable rabbit? If the example of these guys is any proof, I am sure I will need it:

Holy Grail - Killer Bunny - YouTube

Serv

 

[Amergin]

Serv, I also like the Monty Python movies. I have watched them over many times, especially Life of Brian, and loved so many scenes such as the Knights of Nigh, Arthur's exchange with the French at the Castle, the fight of Arthur with the Black Knight where Arthur hacks of the knight's arms and legs (each loss being just a flesh wound), then Arthur leaves and the limbless knight calls Arthur a coward and the knight says he will use his teeth to Kill Arthur. The witch scene was also hillarious about a horrible Christian tradition.

I see Old Testament Bible Stories as horror comedies. It is more absurd than Arthur riding an invisible horse, skipping along while someone beats coconuts together for the sound of hoof beats.

Tubaisteach brónach,

Amergin

 

[bananabrain]

Most European Countries have tried to be neutral in the Arab-Israeli conflict.

yes, i believe they tried that in the former yugoslavia in the 90s as well. i think the term is "a level killing field".

We have no right to aid either side in this senseless conflict.

unfortunately, that's not the way that large number of european citizens and voters see it. that's democracy, i think.

The "Jewish" invasion was aided and aggravated by Great Britain.

it was stemmed and then actively fought from the 1920s on, as the importance of the oily places began to outweigh the importance of the holy places. look up the term "bevingrad".

Then the USA stepped up.

not until the late 1960s. before this, the best allies the israelis had were the french and the czechs.

America is the largest Jewish Population in the world. They have given much support to the New Israeli Nation. Many American Jews left and settled in Israel. They maintained dual citizenship.

well, many american arabs, chinese, indians etc have left and settled in their ancestral homelands and have also maintained dual citizenship. doesn't that mean that dual citizenship is the problem?

Worse yet is how they used the wealth of their American kin to privately aid Israel. That is legal.

sorry, are you criticising pork-barrel politics, the lobbying system or jews?

However, they used money to form organizations like AIPAC about as wealthy as the NRA. They bought US politicians. Their lobbyists bribed US congressmen to vote for Israeli interests. They used their numerous populations in key states to pressure candidates to be Pro-Israel.

are you suggesting that lobbying is uniquely pernicious when done by jews?

Failure to be loudly Pro- Israel meant the huge swing vote that would defeat any candidate advocating fair and balanced view on Israel-Palestine. Obama and Romney compete to be the most aggressive Pro-Israel agent.

and who do you consider "fair and balanced", then?

Israel seems to be politically united to the USA. Israel is the 51st State. They always call Israel the State of Israel. Nevertheless, Russia, Germany, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan are all called the Republic of ---- or the Kingdom of ----. Israel is the only entity called the State of Israel. Americans consider Israel their 51st state. However, I think that the USA is an Israeli Client State.

this is ridiculous. all the "republics" in this list started life as "client states" of the soviet union - "people's / democratic republic" = "communist dictatorship", or, in the case of middle east, the "arab socialist people's party", the ba'athists - and everywhere else is a theocracy or a family-run dictatorship. this is pure sophistry.

The little tall wags the big dog.

*bing* aha! the "jews pull the strings" trope. i do love that one.

would advise good relations with Israel, and good relations with Palestine-Gaza, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.

i think the phrase is "ROFLMAO".

Your policy is costing America in much of the world.

mine? am i running america now? i must look this up in my copy of the protocols. dear oh dear, what a Νεφελοκοκκυγία.

My point is that lobbyists for the NRA and NAACP are not lobbying for a foreign government.

Category:Lobbyists funded by foreign governments that seek to influence the American government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ethnic interest groups in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
this is getting tiresome. it is not illegal to have a foreign policy lobby, yet apparently the jewish one is uniquely pernicious and powerful, as opposed to, say, opec, which has nothing to do with ethnic interests at all, oh no.

But to respond to your fascinating and of course by its nature highly controversial non sequitur, what is so tropish about "dual loyalty?"

Jews & the charge of ‘Dual Loyalty’: CiF’s Rachel Shabi excuses a classic antisemitic canard CiF Watch

Opinion article in Independent hits all the classic antisemitic tropes | Anne's Opinions

I have neither mentioned Pollard nor made any such suggestions. The Washington Post article I linked mentions, by name, Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman. They are, or were, senior employees of AIPAC. I was focused on them.

oh, don't fence. a spy is an agent of a foreign government. if someone is found to be working for a foreign government, their loyalty is to that foreign government. like this, for example:

FBI: Pakistani spies spent millions lobbying US|Americas|chinadaily.com.cn
U.S. lobbyist severs ties with Chinese telecom ZTE | Reuters

there are a lot more where that came from; i could go on all day, but it's tough on my suspenders. apparently, however, the israeli variety of this is somehow more harmful.

I will say that I consider Pollard a seditious scumbag and I hope he rots in prison.

i have to say from what i've read about him he seems less motivated by principle than by cash; look, the guy's an american citizen, he got caught spying, he went to jail - in my book, that's fair cop. in such matters realism generally prevails - it is a different matter, of course, when you are accused of spying out of political convenience, but this does not seem to have been the case for him; the US is not iran, after all.

proving, to my mind, that Zionism and America's interests are sometimes seriously at odds

*every other interest* is "sometimes seriously at odds" with america's interests - british interests, google's interests, the interests of the defence industry; that is like a doctor telling you you have to stop smoking and lose some weight. the issue, however, seems to be the point of view that insists that zionism, or israel's interests are *uniquely* at odds with *everything else in the world*.

However, in memory of the late and redoubtable Gore Vidal, who memorably called Norman Podhoretz and his wife, Midge Decter, "Fifth Columnists" for Israel

jesus, are you actually bringing up that unlamented, overprivileged, timothy-mcveigh-excusing bitchy-knickers jew-hater as in any way persuasive? i really wouldn't. i've never sympathised with podhoretz until i read that stuff. sheesh, what a conspiracist fruitloop gore vidal became in his later years.

i am starting to feel that my years at interfaith.org may soon be coming to an end, if it has come to arguing the toss between an aristocratic distaste for jews and short-sighted jewish nationalism.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Servetus]

i am starting to feel that my years at interfaith.org may soon be coming to an end, if it has come to arguing the toss between an aristocratic distaste for jews and short-sighted jewish nationalism.

This is your turf. If anyone leaves, it will be me. While we evidently disagree upon many points, and strongly at that, I wish you all the best.

Best regards,

Serv

 

[radarmark]

Shalom, Friend!

 

[iBrian]

i am starting to feel that my years at interfaith.org may soon be coming to an end, if it has come to arguing the toss between an aristocratic distaste for jews and short-sighted jewish nationalism.

I agree - it's not acceptable, any more than it would be to allow all Muslims to be painted as terrorists.

I'm going to keep a closer eye out, and sincerely hope there are more intelligent and engaging topics on Judaism that develop here.