Heaven and Hell are anthropomorphic constructs...

Didja read the reincarnation poem??

Heck I don't know if or how it exists...and don't really care...

I'm not living eternally concerned about the afterlife...

I am living this life, not at the expense of others. I got no clue what happens next and don't need a carrot or stick in order to have compassion for my fellow man. (just as you implied the atheist and humanist don't either in another thread).
 
wil said:
I got no clue what happens next
Click to expand...

Wil,
Self-realisation is a self-motivated quest.
It requires detective work.
Pull oneself up by one's own bootstraps ---is about saving yourself from "Last-class" service.

Wil,

I'd like to point out how long YOU have been:
a] conscious &
b] free to attend to "detective work to find Self-realisation"

Presumed statistical usage of one's time in a 24 hour day:

If we presume Wil is 33 years old . . . then:

Wil has slept 10 years out of the 33 years

Wil has worked 10 years out of the 33 years

Wil was a baby for 5 years out of the 33 years

Wil has commuted 5 years out of the 33 years

Wil has cleansed & eaten 2 years out of the 33 years

Wil has attend school for 2 years out of the 33 years
(**min 12yrs x 200Day/Yr x 6hrs/Day divide by 24Hr/Day = 600 days)

Wil,
The calculation shows that 34 years of a 33 year old's life was spent doing daily chores & obligations.

The calculation shows that a 33 year old has Minus (-)1 year of spare time!

Mondo Multi-tasking skills required yeah?

What happens when that 33 year old becomes 66 years old:

Wil has still slept 10 years out of the additional 33 years

Wil has still worked 10 years out of the additional 33 years

Wil was a baby NO more.

Wil has still commuted 5 years out of the additional 33 years

Wil has still cleansed & eaten 2 years out of the additional 33 years

Wil has attended NO additional schooling.

At 66 years old:

34 years + 27 years = 61 years spent doing "what a man's got to do".

Then comes retirement . . .

61 years out of 66 years ---Wil, we are short lived, the detective work must be completed before the boton is passed to the next in line.
 
wil said:
I got no clue what happens next and don't need a carrot or stick in order to have compassion for my fellow man.
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Again your prejudice colours everything you say. The fact that you haven't got a clue does not mean no-one else has (and it does question what you teach others) ... and the fact that only a carrot and stick will motivate you doesn't mean it motivates everyone else.

Oh man, you're so steeped in your prejudice you can't see it. I expect this kind of thing from Andrw or Nick, but then they've got an agenda.

As for compassion, it's very easy to care compassionately about the things you like, the acid test is to be compassionate towards those you don't, and I don't see that at all ... quite the opposite.

Is suggest a course of metta bhavana meditation.

God bless,

Thomas
 
wil said:
I got no clue what happens next and don't need a carrot or stick in order to have compassion for my fellow man.
Click to expand...
Yet, do you think others do? Do you provide neither carrot nor stick to those that you find disagreeable in the sand box? You throw no stones, neither punishing, banning, or bribing others? If true, then I would certainly see the compassion that you describe yourself with. I find that a little consideration upon the golden rule, and acting upon it, is a path towards compassion: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. You believe you abide by that rule?
 
The gap between the D!vine and us is one of focus. We spend too much time in the past or the future. Drop them and focus on being here now.

Yes, this means carrots and stick need not apply. Nor rebirth.
 
B....interesting contemplation on life....and I vacation and live a lot more than that....I revel in seeing things, communing with friends, reading, relaxing, enjoying...

Ncot...yes some rely on hell, carrots/sticks....it is part of their psyche, and they use it to make themselves feel better by infusing the guilt put on them on others...

Lucey.....to me the golden rule is incredibly arrogant and I don't follow it...i prefer to do unto others as they'd have done unto them....that is if it doesn't go beyond my realm of acceptablity.

Radar...I agree with much of what you posted...however don't require the focus....much the opposite....the now/the present/sitting in the bosum of G!d simply requires acceptance/allowing/relaxing into...
 
wil said:
Lucey.....to me the golden rule is incredibly arrogant and I don't follow it...i prefer to do unto others as they'd have done unto them....that is if it doesn't go beyond my realm of acceptablity.
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No difference. Someone will find your behavior beyond their realm of acceptability. Should they punish or bribe you? Do you punish or bribe those that go beyond your realm of acceptability? If forced to live in a world with others, will you find that acceptable, or view that as a punishment or bribe?

I thought arrogance and compassion were attributes of a person. How do you call a rule, arrogant? Is that your attempt to call me arrogant, for stating the rule? Do you think it would be without arrogance if I call myself compassionate?

I agreed with the title: Heaven and Hell are anthropomoprphic constructs. We can help make this place heaven, and we can help make this place hell. God's will can be done in heaven, and God's will can be done on earth.
 
radarmark said:
The gap between the D!vine and us is one of focus. We spend too much time in the past or the future. Drop them and focus on being here now.

Yes, this means carrots and stick need not apply. Nor rebirth.
Click to expand...
Do good, speak sharply, and carry no stick.
 
wil said:
Radar...I agree with much of what you posted...however don't require the focus....much the opposite....the now/the present/sitting in the bosum of G!d simply requires acceptance/allowing/relaxing into...
Click to expand...
Wil, I really think you're confusing 'before' and 'after'.

If all you have to do is site back and let it flow, then you're contradicting the teachings of the Hindus, Buddhists, Daoists, Abrahamics et al for millenia?

I think you miss the point that 'acceptance/allowing/relaxing into' requires a great deal of hard work and discipline, and focus on the 'one thing necessary' (cf Luke 10:42).

Check out 'Matthieu Ricard' — he's been declared 'the happiest man in the world' — and he explains how the untrained mind, called 'monkey mind' in Buddhism, actually stops one from attaining anything unless it's first brought under control. By simply 'acceptance/allowing/relaxing into' with no discipline and no discernment means you're at the whim of every passing fad and fancy ...

God bless,

Thomas
 
ah yes Thomas.....that monkey mind afflicted me for quite awhile...I can now sit and commune on a bus, in a concert, with turmoil and strife...

I believe you are correct, there was some work involved....I did have to learn how to focus....but tis like riding a bike... once learned, tis easy to do....I no longer pedal uphill.

We just had our day of thanx here in the US....and you are one of many I am thankful for.

Peace.
 
As I read it, Jesus did not covet bliss, nor pursue it. Perhaps someone reads differently?

Trying it on:
He really went into the desert to meditate, seeking bliss.
He travelled all over in the pursuit of bliss.
He once stayed up all night in the meditative pursuit of bliss.
Not finding it, he finally chose the cross as a last ditch effort to get him the hell out of here. :D:rolleyes:

Sort of reminds me of Lunitik. You all remember him?

If Jesus spoke of both heaven and hell, then perhaps living his lifestyle will help us to see both heaven and hell. Otherwise, I think we see what we reason with, and the foundation of that reasoning can be formed by the lifestyle we live. It is all too easy and appealing to go seeking a mental or physical bliss.
 
Luecy-- as you get older, bliss and wisdom and the experience of G-d become (I think) more important. The world and the nation and the family will surely continue, an open, awaiting, and compassionate life-style is enough for me. The challenges and frustrations and epic works of the world are for younger ones than I.
 
wil said:
ah yes Thomas.....that monkey mind afflicted me for quite awhile...I can now sit and commune on a bus, in a concert, with turmoil and strife...
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Then you will understand better than I, having become Buddha, that it's not enough to say to people 'go with the flow' — the flow that people go with is self-delusion and the source of suffering. :rolleyes:

Of course, best stay away from me, as if we meet, I will be obliged to kill you... :D

God bless,

Thomas
 
radarmark said:
Luecy-- as you get older, bliss and wisdom and the experience of G-d become (I think) more important. The world and the nation and the family will surely continue, an open, awaiting, and compassionate life-style is enough for me.
Click to expand...
There are a number of ways, and for a number of purposes, with which to drive a vehicle. I evaluate the compassion in your driving differently than you do, and I suspect as I evaluate the compassion of my own driving that you would evaluate it differently too.

One way to drive is to figure, "Everyone should mind their own business, and evaluate their own driving." Another way to drive is to figure, "I am in bliss with little need to toil my brain with evaluating anyone's driving." Yet another way to drive is to ram a few of the other 'less compassionate' drivers off the road. A hydrogen filled zeppelin does fly. For how long, I do not know.

radarmark said:
The challenges and frustrations and epic works of the world are for younger ones than I.
Click to expand...
I hope the bride you have mentioned is not that much younger. Otherwise it seems there may be epic challenges and frustrations with the limp works.
 
I don't think Jesus went into the desert seeking Bliss. He already had that. He went into the desert to better understand his task and role in helping lead ALL of HUMANITY to that same Bliss-Consciousness. I think if you'll check with him, this is what he will tell you ...

Also, if you want to understand Rebirth, ask the questions, enter into the DISCUSSION, and be ready to open your Heart and mind. Otherwise, you're really just whistlin' Dixie. Some of us have pulled our pistols long ago ...

... but if you miss the reference, our aim is to shoot to disarm, not to kill. We may occasionally nick a man on the hand, yet this is not our intent. Well do we know, Practice makes PERFECT (sic)!

Heaven and Hell most certainly exist, but if you want to understand all things relevant, ask those who have been through both, who either reside in such conditions or have done so for extended periods ... and/or, perhaps best of all, who have triumphed over the trammels of matter - and the thirst [trishna, tanha] for embodied existence, altogether ~ and *transcended* the same.

Having done so, and making it a habit to follow in their footsteps (as some acknowledge), we too may arrive at our Destination. Along the Way, we may even help others who are receptive and hungry for Truth. True, we cannot force the food into our brother's hand and make him take a bite, yet we can show him the food on the Table, prove its nourishing value by eating likewise and continuing to LIVE ... and in his moments of doubt or denial, we may encourage him to quench his thirst, satisfy his hunger.

"Water of Life am I, poured forth for thirsty men."

I will not argue over food and water.
I will, however, tell you how tasty & Wonderful this stuff is ... and plenty more, if you ask.

Namaskar :)
 
radarmark said:
Luecy-- as you get older, bliss and wisdom and the experience of G-d become (I think) more important.
Click to expand...
I think 'bliss' and 'wisdom' are both contingent states of the experience of the Divine (when they are real); they are responses to the Real and the True and the Beautiful, that is to the transcendentals.

In Christian theology, unconditional bliss is termed the Beatific Vision, the self communication of God to the person, and 'vision' in this context is, I would suggest, metaphorical.

For St Thomas Aquinas, the Beatific Vision surpasses both faith and reason. Knowledge alone cannot satisfy the desire to know God, since reason is primarily concerned with sensible objects, and thus knowledge can only infer its conclusions about God indirectly.

Faith is likewise incomplete when it implies some imperfection in the understanding: "Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not" (Hebrews 11:1).

The Beatific Vision satisfies this fundamental desire of the human soul to know and be with God. Quoting St Paul, Aquinas notes "We see now in a glass darkly, but then face to face" (1 Corinthians 13:12).

I must admit I prefer the Johannine "Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2) although I am aware that friends such as Wil will read this statement as unconditional assertion that they are already perfect — missing the salient point that the Johannine author is speaking of some future state which is communal, not individual.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Just to add that our entire perception of reality is necessarily an anthropomorphic construct — we cannot experience or appreciate the world as anything other than human — but that in no way necessarily implies that heaven and hell do not exist.

Numbers are anthropomorphic constructs.

God bless,

Thomas
 
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