Metaphysics in Theosophy

Just a couple of questions:

Why do you say that "Scientists think that quarks and strings can be broken down into smaller and smaller physical building blocks, but Theosophy says they are wrong"? There are a lot of scientists out there who believe that the string is the Plank length so it makes no sense there is anything smaller.

Second question. Would not "universal mind" be "mulaprakriti" or the daughter of it?

Third question. I can handle a differentiation between matter and mind and spirit and the "Platonic world". Where does "but not a matter that is similar to physical matter" fall into this (admittedly Western) system of mine? And what is the difference between the astral and mental planes?
 
IG,
　
It is very possible that quarks and strings can be broken down into smaller physical pieces. But I also think there is a point where the next division of the smallest physical piece is an astral piece.
　
Radar,
　
You asked,

Why do you say that "Scientists think that quarks and strings can be broken down into smaller and smaller physical building blocks, but Theosophy says they are wrong"?
　
--> I worded that badly and I apologize. What I meant (and what I am also saying to IG) is that I think there is a point where the next division of the smallest physical piece is an astral piece.
　
"There are a lot of scientists out there who believe that the string is the Plank length so it makes no sense there is anything smaller."

--> Well, a lot of times that scientists have said things are impossible and it turned out they were wrong. I don’t rely on scientists to tell me what is possible and what is impossible.
　
"Would not "universal mind" be "mulaprakriti" or the daughter of it?"

--> I see it the other way around, with mulaprakriti being a ‘manifestation’ of the Universal Mind. Or perhaps more accurately, both mulaprakriti and the Universal Mind are aspects of what is referred to in Theosophy as the Absolute. This Absolute is the same as Ayin in Judiasm, Parabrahman in Hinduism, and Sunyata in Buddhism. (The Absolute is the nameless entity which the Jewish faith tries to neither name or describe, and Theosophy takes the same neither-name-nor-describe approach.) Take a look at
　
http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/tabulation.htm
　
"Where does "but not a matter that is similar to physical matter" fall into this (admittedly Western) system of mine?"

--> I used that terminology (in an admittedly confusing way) to refer to ‘matter’ that is at a higher ‘level of refinement’ than physical, astral, or even mental matter. According to Theosophy, astral material is finer than physical matter, mental matter is finer than astral matter, etc., all the way up to the finest type of matter which is call the Adi plane of existence. According to Theosophy, the Adi Plane is the first plane of existence and the first type of ‘matter’ which appeared when mulaprakriti differentiated in spirit and matter and formed the first plane, the Adi plane. It was Adi matter I was referring to when I referred to matter that is similar to physical matter.
　
"…what is the difference between the astral and mental planes?

--> It is a difference of density. Let me used the often-used analogy of stones in a large glass container. We can fill a large glass container with stones and then say the container is full. But we can then pour in small pieces of rock — gravel — and say the container is now truly full. But next we can pour in dirt and now say it is full. But next we can pour in water and say it is full. According to the theory of astral matter, the container still has empty space which can be ‘filled’ with astral matter. (Even then, it can be further filled with mental matter.)
　
We are all familiar with ideas like dead people still hanging around on earth, ghosts, hobgoblins, ‘wandering lost souls’ and the like. All of these entities are said to exist on the astral plane, and none of these entities are visible on the physical plane.
　
It is also said there is a dimension (or plane of existence) that is even higher than the astral plane, and this higher plane is called the mental plane of existence. (Thoughts and thought-forms are said to exist of much finer particles than emotions and ghosts.) It is said our higher thoughts and aspirations are thought-forms which exist on the mental plane rather on the astral plane. (The astral plane is mainly the domain of feelings and emotions, the mental plane is mainly the domain of thoughts and aspirations, and thoughts are seen as being a higher form of consciousness than emotions.) It is also said that ‘heaven’ is on the mental, not astral, plane, and that we spend our ‘heavenly time’ on the mental plane, until such a time as we are ready to return to earth to experience another reincarnation. But first we must burn out our personality imperfections on the astral plane before we can rise up to the mental plane of existence ("enter heaven") in a process known to all major religions known as Purgatory (except Roman Catholics, who have now outlawed the idea of Purgatory). You may have heard of the Japanese Bon Festival, or the Festival of the Dead. The Bon Festival is widely celebrated in Japan (and Japanese communities in America) by dancing. The Bon Dance was started by a Japanese man who learned his deceased mother had completed her unhappy after-death time in Purgatory (the astral plane) and was finally able to enter heaven (the mental plane). He was so happy he started dancing in celebration, and the Japanese custom of Bon Dancing continues with us to this very day.
　
There are even higher planes, the next higher being the Buddhic Plane. It is said that once we achieve the very high level of buddhic consciousness (a level much higher than mental consciousness), we will no longer be required to incarnate here on earth (something I am very much looking forward to.)
 
Okay, a lot to look up digest (and I am in the middle of a job search). Let me mull over a couple of days. "Smallest thing" issue:

By material or physical, I (like the scientist I am, or those who are material monists) mean this physical stuff that physics studies (matter/energy, wave/particles). If the basics of physics and quantum theory are right (and it is a "closed argument" meaning, given the assumption one is talking about "physical things", as defined by physics, it is "logically true that") then at the Planck length level (ten to the negative 33 centimeters or so--meaning a size that is as much smaller than a proton as a proton is compared to a yardstick) it is necessary (except some variants in string/M-theory) that physicality (space, size) "breaks down".

Now, something may exist (like the Bohmian Holoverse) at that level... but it cannot have physicality, that is no size can be ascribed to it. What that means is this astral level (as I understand what you have said, it is a finer structure than a material world) may (I would say does) exist, but one should qualify it with "non-material" or "non-physical".

All of our concepts in physics are based on quantum theory (the most well verified theory there is). The "Standard Model" of Physics (since the hypothesis of quarks, including string-M theory) is based on space "breaking down" at the Planck level. It is just like a singularity. A singularity is where Relativity "blows up"; the Planck level is where quantum "breaks down".

Whatever astral, mental, spiritual things are they are not physical. There can be no "finer structure" in terms of space or size (this is verified at both FermiLab and LHC, where they are looking for the hidden dimensions of multiverse theory).

There can be a "finer" (meaning better) structure that postulates something that is not physical "underlies" a quark or string or brane. I (tentatively) accept this as the astral level (pending some research).

The issue underlies the "physics" versus "meta-physics" (in a classical sense, not the XIXth century Englidh sense) dichotomy that radarmark is always talking about.... why, because I want to be able to postulate something beyond matter exists.
 
I'm kind of rushed ... but I would suggest browsing How Spirit Interpenetrates the Physical BUILDING THE BRIDGE in order to visit the idea of bubbles in koilon which Nick has described in these or other words.

Also, note the Theosophical anu or root atom of physical matter, which Nick has also explained. You can find an image of this atom ~ and another explanation somewhat like the above ~ provided at The Theory of Everything | Science Of Spirituality Blog on Speakingtree.in.

Both of these articles discuss the intersection of modern science with the Theosophical observations and teachings from 1875 onward ... but with reference, also, to the ancient Greek ideas [whence the term `koilon']. The 2nd article is a bit better documented and has better incorporation of graphics, imo.

Finally, there is the work of Edwin Babbitt in the late 19th Century, whose Principles of Color and Light finally gave us an image of the Theosophical `anu' but this time with much, MUCH more detail. Here, then, is the true elementary particle of physical matter ~ whether that be a quark, a "preon" or whatever.

This is Babbitt's atom [in the true Greek meaning of this word ~ a+tomos=INdivisible]:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Babbitt-atom.png

Note the 3 primary spirals as well as the 7 subsidiary spirals, and also note that each of these spirals has a set of secondary spirillae which coils around it. Thus there are TEN primary coils, or the spirillae of Theosophical terminology .... EACH of which is slightly twisted so as to form the shape of the anu/atom. There is a vortex through the heart of the atom, yet the primary structure - its approximate heart shape - is made up of these TEN rings [spirals, or STRINGS, doh!] which themselves do not separate or break down any further ~ without becoming astral matter.

If you uncoiled the atom - just speaking in terms of the primary spirals - you would have ten RINGS or spirals, or STRINGS arranged one of top of the other, equidistant and held together magnetically. Except that these are twisted into the shape of the heart, or physical anu. And then there are coils formed around each of these - the Three and Seven - spirals. So we have two sets of spirillae fully depicted. Note that for each of the ten primary spirals, the tiny spirillae which wind around it are - like the parent coil - IN TACT as ONE long coil or additional `string.'

Awhile back I posted an image I found somewhere out there on the web to Interfaith. It's not accurate, in that it shows rings rather than true spirals, but I will reference it only because it helps illustrate the Theosophical idea (with good detail, I think 5 rings total) ... long ago verified many times over by trained clairvoyants [and now, increasingly, by empirical science]. Note that Theosophy teaches one primary set of spirals, and six secondary sets of spirillae, for a total of SEVEN spirals per atom. In the course of the natural, normal development of matter, only four of these spirals are unfolded at the present time ... except where additional spirals have been artificially hastened through occult means. And of course, eventually, in future cycles of evolution, it is the destiny of every atom of substance to fully develop all of its potential ~ in terms of these spirals & spirillae. This doesn't quite explain everything there is to know about Consciousness, matter and Energy, even where these first two serve as the basis, or vehicle, for the manifestation of the latter [Spirit/energy] ... but it's at least the beginnings of a scientific and material BASIS for everything that the occult sciences postulate.

By the way, astral, mental and finer MATTER are just that. They are definitely SUBSTANCE and serve as the vehicle for Consciousness/Life on those planes of existence, just as the physical serves as such during our time in the body. We haven't gotten around to discussing the Sutratma yet, but Descartes was quite familiar with it [and obviously the Eastern teachings] as he tells us the same as every Theosophist learns ~ that the thread-soul [the `silver cord' of the Bible] is anchored *in the heart*.

Anyway, yes, there are ultimate astral atoms and ultimate mental atoms, etc., which correspond with what is shown or depicted in these drawings ... and increasingly verified by science ... but we are told that not all of them are heart-shaped, as are the examples of ultimate physical particles provided.
 
Radar,
　
You said,
　
"Now, something may exist (like the Bohmian Holoverse) at that level... but it cannot have physicality…"
　
--> The problem, then, is to wait and see if science can ever learn to observe ‘astrality.’ I guess we just have to wait until that day comes. (I think it will.)
　
Back to the Stanzas. There is one more thing at the end of the first line:
　
"The Eternal Parent (space) wrapped in her ever Invisible Robes had slumbered once again for seven Eternities."
　
The last part says that the time between universes lasted for seven ‘eternities.’ It is said that there is no space-time between universes, but there seems to be some kind of time mechanism that measures how long ‘time’ should last between universes. This is a paradox I do not think our finite human minds can comprehend.
 
Yes, Nick, I agree... it depends on what you mean by "physicality". There are many, many physicists and cosmologists who believe in "extra dimensions of physicality". But regardless of how this is put, the subject (at this point) is metaphysics, not physics. I personally agree with this and believe M-theory may be one good model (and theosophy, insofar as it seems to parallel it). But it is not the only one.

On the greater question of time, I think that is central... if one has a cyclic cosmology (like the Vedas or Hiller) then the issue of some kind of time existing beyond the Einsteinian spacetime. Again a metaphysical not a physical question.

I am learning a lot in this.
 
Radar,
　
How goes the job hunt?
　
The subject of time-but-no-time is the topic of the second line in the Stanzas:
　
"Time was not, for it lay asleep in the infinite bosom of duration."
　
Here is an interpretation of the time-but-no-time paradox.
　
"Here, we are face to face with the contradiction.... Time did not exist, yet seven eternities were flowing past.... Time had not vanished ‘into nothing’ but into that Timelessness of which Time is the moving image.... Just as in really dreamless sleep time vanishes for us, so in the Cosmic Night time as succession vanishes with the events whose successive nature it marked. The succession of events, physical or psychical, that are the experience of time had ceased...." (Man, the Measure of All Things, by Prem & Ashish pages 51-52)
　
Quest Books
 
Yes, time is a tricky, contradictory, and paradoxical concept. If we accept the "Standard Model" (SM) of physics, it is tied to Minkowskian spacetime (Einstein could not formulate his math too well, so an old instructor Hermann Minkowski came up with a neat mathematical model Einstein adopted). And at the singularity that is the start of the universe (again, IAW SM) time blinks out of existence.

Any discussion beyond that is metaphysics... whether McTaggart or Einstein or Prem & Ashish. I like the latter most, thanks.
 
Radar,
　
Yes, a 'beyond-universe time' is metaphysics. But it is fascinating to ponder a different kind of time that is beyond our concept of earthly time.
　
The third line of the Stanzas:
　
i-1-3. Universal Mind was not, for there were no Ah-hi (celestial beings) to contain (hence to manifest) it.
　
Interpretation:
　
The manifested universe had not appeared, for the Dhyani-Chohan (the seven deities which facilitated the manifesting of the universe) had not yet appeared.
　
One interpretation of the meaning of Universal Mind is that it is The Son, The Third Logos — our universe (but I am not sure I agree with this interpretation).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top