A Two-line Commentary on Jesus, the Christ

I am willing to respond to a post on the thread where someone placed it, and I am willing to not respond. Perhaps you should ask the Ecumenist for his discernment, on whether or not he wants a word exchange to continue on his thread. :)

Everyone if free to post wherever they want, the law is out of town. I'm just giving people the opportunity to let the topics separate. Also, I would have hated if this is what my topics ended up as.
 
Everyone if free to post wherever they want, the law is out of town. I'm just giving people the opportunity to let the topics separate. Also, I would have hated if this is what my topics ended up as.
As you refer to law in a way that I don't believe Jesus Christ ever did, I guess you are off the topic. I imagine there could be someone in your town, that loves to say what you love to hear, on your topic. I know quite a few people that are into that, and I hope you find what you are looking for. Lets be giving though, and give to the Ecumenist the opportunity to discern and say what he is looking for, since he made the thread. Perhaps he does love to hear the ending that you love to hear.
 
I have a long post, which I have basically typed up twice, and which has some merit to it. If you're bored and have a snack, you may decide to wade through it. Otherwise, I can save you some trouble, and just comment that I am not feeling charioteer-like at the present moment. I realize I should probably try and draw some ideas, trends or threads of discussion together ... and I will give it a legitimate effort in a day or two if I find more time, for although I certainly had it the past couple of hours, I just wasn't quite in the right state of mind. I did ramble on, however, as I am wont to do.

What I would hope is that people would continue to explore some of these distinctions which we feel are especially important in *healing us [i meant helping, but look what I typed]* to define and describe our OWN Faith, and beliefs, and understanding - as these create intersections, bridges and points of commonality - rather than simply points of friction or disagreement. Otherwise, what's the point in posting at all? ;)

So, on with the ridiculously long post, and if anyone finds anything useful in it, just highlight it or bump it back into relevance ... as otherwise I see no reason not to let it recede. The thread can evolve in whatever direction is useful, so long as more toward and civility & mutual respect, with patience and diplomacy in our approach.

Namaskara
 
I recommend a reading of the Bhagavad Gita for luecy7. Once you read that (again, if you already have), you may realize that the viveka I speak of is PRECISELY what is referenced in the quote you provide where "allegedly Christ said" ~.

And this is why I am on one side of the fence, and you are on the other, leucy7, though certainly not always or regarding all points ~ as your beliefs and mine both overlap and diverge at many, many junctures. I will likely be at odds with much which you have to say, or which anyone does, when through unknowing and often in excess zeal s/he steps forward to affirm that there have been no further revelations ~ or prophets, or Christians after Christ ~ since the time of Jesus.

You see, if Gandhiji was right, and if G.K. Chesterton was right, and if St. Augustine was right, then Christianity is not `OVER.' It is not simply a pre-packaged, neatly-wrapped set of commandments or injunctions, provided by some external and detached, transcendent Deistic `impulse' ~ even if Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel artwork does inspire us to recognize how close and potentially accessible is a CLOSER relationship between Humanity & God. It's just that the anthropomorphism tends to get in the way, even here in such a wonderful artistic expression. And since the true significance of being "created in the `IMAGE' of the Divine" is all but lost on 99% of people, it falls to the 1% (or fewer) to share what insight has always been available ~ yet which only begins to arrive as we contemplate abstractions, Plato's Ideals and how this is the intersection of a Divine Mind with our own tiny microcosmic reflections thereof.

For while Revelation is certainly PROGESSIVE - in Abrahamic, as also with all other religious traditions [save perhaps for `dead' religions, and even then who's to say what is dead & buried vs. simply reinvented or revisited in a different, more modern & updated version] - still there is what we call the Perennial Philosophy, the Pierian Spring, or Theos Sophia ~ which means the WISDOM OF GOD.

Either you believe and accept that God's Heart and Mind, Purpose and thereby OUR OWN raison d'etre CAN be sensed, increasingly-better understood and even Wisely, effectively as also, more & more PERFECTLY Served ~ for such was Christ's Calling to us, and affirmation to the Apostles of their own future relationship with Him, with each other and with God, thereby having implications for the rest of us [namely that the SAME is *our* Destiny too ~ [vide Ephesians 4:13] ... or else you may prefer to say that you have been Inspired by the example of Jesus, that you are drawn to the Message of Universal Brotherhood and to the life of Everlasting LOVE, Purpose and fulfillment ~ as appeals to us ALL.

Yet the moment you remove the Teachings from their appropriate context, and forget that Christ Jesus told us we can know all that I have just said ... then your very understanding, and thus your practice as also your presentation (or explanation) of *Christianity itself* begins to skew, distort and digress from what Christ desires from each of us (and from ALL).

I am amazed that a person could be so ignorant as to think that there is anything like true divisiveness, or enmity, at the spiritual levels ~ whereon and wherein we CAN and DO discover, meet, learn from and GROW WITH the Buddhas, the Christs and a host of qualified spiritual Teachers of EVERY Faith Tradition, in EVERY nation, as has always managed to survive, no matter how dark and bleak the times, otherwise ... as characterized world conditions during WWI & II, or during this same conflict in its original inception during Atlantis, hundreds of thousands of years ago ~ or more recently in Europe's Dark Ages.

But when people kill each other over petty disagreements, or due to different religious beliefs & practices ... and where ecumenical efforts break down, or where self-styled representatives [I ASPIRE to be a better Ecumenist; which is vital, but not the same as ecumenism itself!] fail to accurately & appropriately embody the very Ideals they seek to emulate, is it any wonder that the world (or 2 or 3 of you reading this) looks on, observes how far short we often fall of our Goals, and feels like tossing in the towel, thus avoiding organized religion like the plague (which do *you* think has been the greater evil upon our planet?) or reverting to a minimalist attitude & form of spiritual practice, drifting as agnostics until a fresh, future Inspiration (minor Revelation) once again impels & uplifts us to continue on with our very PURPOSE for existing!

Christ taught that God is accessible, here and now, by you, and me, and by EVERYONE on this wonderful wide, beautiful blue-green planet.

Rats, I hate when a random keystroke blows away half an hour of careful composition. But as I have the Alleluia Chorus playing on the Arts channel beside me here, I must simply smile, and assume that all is not lost. :)

I will synopsize, by asking what I was in the midst of typing:

When the Christ called to Peter the Fisherman to "walk across the water" (meaning to Tame his passions, to subdue St. George's or St. Michael's dragon, to conquer the astral/desire elemental) ... do you suppose he did so only so that he could watch him fail, at first? Or did he not know that Peter could, and certainly one day WOULD be able to accomplish *precisely what Christ was inviting him to set his mind to* ... as this was a man, like the Buddha, who could recognize God's Calling for EACH of us, and speak to that, and thus help us to AWAKEN to the same, so that we could move closer toward fulfilling our very PURPOSE, our reason for being?

And notice, also, that Christ did not sense a weakness in Peter, then kick his proverbial crutches out from under him, laughing at him or jesting about his obvious imperfections and as-yet-unmastered human emotions. Rather, Christ encouraged his disciple, and expected him to RISE TO THE OCCASION, which is what it means to "be all the we can be," with courage, with intelligence, with detachment and without tarry. Peter may have fallen short in his first attempt (perhaps that particular lifetime, or perhaps during a shorter cycle), yet this Soul has long since learned to `walk on water,' as also he has become Transfigured, even as was Christ Jesus, and as was St. Paul, after him.

Christ expects no less than this kind of effort from anyone who would follow his example. And at times it certainly helps to have someone more advanced along the spiritual Path to help explain things to us, to remove our Herculean Goals and Sisyphean contemplations from the realm of impossibility, and show us through a humbler, more modest example that the same Heroic accomplishments are seldom worked overnight, or in one day alone ~ save when they come as the *culmination* to a long and worthy Labour of Love.

Typically, it is only through slow but steady, constant plodding that we make any progress along the spiritual path at all. As otherwise, should be lose our way along the many side-roads which life presents, or if our feet become burdened with the heavy mud of sorrows and confusion, it sometimes takes quite awhile before we are once again receptive enough, and desperate enough, to remove the wax from our ears, the hardness from our hearts and the distractions from our daily routine ... and take up again our Yoke, Christ's Yoga [aka, `The Teaching of Living Ethics'].

For there comes a time when though we look around, try as we might we cannot envision the current landscape without the Presence of Christ, and His Elect, active on every hand, in every land. Looking hard at the footsteps before us, acknowledging a path stretching behind us as far as the eye can see, we realize that there are divergences, true, yet these are surely where OUR footfalls have not quite managed to keep pace, or rhythm, or Balance with those of the Master Who has led the Way ahead of us, and for us.

Not far ahead is He, or the other Teachers, if we learn to enVision something of the Divine Plan in its all-Inclusive Nature, with room for every atom, every creature, every person and every future Potential ... yet if we are willing to face, squarely in the mirror, the true source of our present unrest and confusion, our doubt, despair & uncertainty, we will also know full well who it is that turns away from the Shining Countenance, the Lord Who is always Blessing us, the door to Whose heart has EVER - since our first human incarnation - stood wide to {our own} future PERFECTION, Christhood and [encounter with] the Godhead {wherein I should be glad to lose, and loose all distinctions, as otherwise, I should forever remain apart from the object of my Devotion, forever the hopeless donkey, following the dangling carrot,on a stick}.

God is no fisherman on a jackass, taunting our own, ignorant and sorry human nature with fool's gold. Too many errors riddle the theology of Churchianity as man has composed it over the centuries, thinking in so many cases that a minor alteration surely could not hurt ... or as often, that through his own craftiness he could bring greater numbers, greater wealth, greater power and greater reputation to his own, particular, fleeting `Order.'

Christ brought the Sword which divides the Truth of the Gospel [regarding our own spiritual Potential] ... from the inventions of the greedy, power-hungry and wavering (if not grievously erring) mind of man. No wonder that in the SPIRITUAL showdown which raged so strong at the climactic moments of the First and Second World War, Humanity very nearly DID pull itself apart - in a truly cataclysmic and catastrophic sense - save for the Intervention of tremendous spiritual Potencies & Agencies, or `God Himself'.

Yet our thoughts and prayers were directed Heavenward, then as now, in such a fashion that disaster was averted ~ if not permanently avoided or removed from the path altogether. Free Will means that it is our POTENTIAL to Cooperate with the very Godhead, if we so put our mind to it ... yet that we can also sink into the lowest, nether regions [even *while* we are in incarnation] of sub-human brutality and concupiscence, if we neglect our own spiritual, intellectual, emotional and physical/material well-being.

Free Will means the FREE and WILLING Cooperation with God's Plan ... and never once have I heard it said by a wise man or woman that this would *always* be easy, or effortless, or rosy and peachy. It is called the THORNY Path for a reason, and there is a meaning to the phrase that, "Many are called; few are chosen."

If only the Christian would learn to DISCERN the words and the Teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, of the Christ, and of the Illumined Hearts and Minds who have sought to preserve the Gospel Message in its pure, unadulterated form ... as PANACEA for all of Mankind's woes, but especially as curative, restorative balm for those of us in the West whose past, present and future [to varying extent or capacity] is unquestionably, for better or worse, bound up in the Abrahamic Traditions, if also - though a bit less perceptibly for many - that of Eastern Wisdom.

In another day, yes, I might have fought to the death, and slain my spiritual brother on the battlefield ... simply owing to his Muslim faith, while he would have sought to do me in as `the infidel' for exactly the same reasons of *perceived differences*. And I do not deny that some differences are important, actually and obviously, any more than I fail to recognize that so-called `holy wars' continue to this day, even 6 & 1/2 DECADES after the Divine Intervention which ended World War mid-20th Century.

But today we are on the verge of the recognition, and widespread acceptance of the scientific PROOF of a Soul, and of the survival of the Consciousness of every person of bodily death, regardless of religion - or none. We are very close to experiences of non-terrestrial Humanities, both visiting and observing, hoping to assist us during these difficult times, that we might avoid unnecessary cataclysms and undue suffering, which already affects every person on the planet.

It is clear to most of us who have approached this subject that a sort of Spiritual `Prime Directive' is what prevents ET from landing on the White House lawn and asking for our leaders to sit down with them and discuss things like the sensible human beings we can sometimes be. Then again, anyone who has read up on these things, and who has a measure of *viveka* helping to call the shots, will likely know that in fact, some of our Presidents have met with visiting Intelligences.

And that will take us in a slightly different direction, yet the message is still the same, and is simple: If we can't learn, and PDQ, to get along with one another, nation with nation equally as brother with brother and neighbor with neighbor, then our Scriptural indication from Isaiah 2:4 shall not - for some considerable time - come to pass. For it won't occur suddenly, three days from now ... and it won't even occur overnight, the moment that many disciples and spiritual aspirants the world over recognize the living, breathing, walking, talking incarnation OF THE CHRIST ~ which very well may be possible within our own lifetimes, IF WE WILL HAVE IT.

Spiritual growth, as most other types, requires patience ... and also the recognition that Flowers tend to grow - unconsciously ... unfolding without worry, or aggression, and certainly not because the flower next to them gets huffy and decides to pry open the bud a full two months before it otherwise is supposed to open. God awaits us all, and is also [t]here, ready to greet us and embrace us EVERY step of the way, though I have certainly noticed that it tends to be better for *everyone* when we learn to put one foot in front of the other, Keep our eyes on the Prize, and ever remember to move steadily FORWARD ~ Hopeful, and with a SMILE. As one disciple put it, we must keep on keeping on.

Otherwise, if we are careless or lazy, inattentive or presumptuous, we shall find that we taking two steps forward, then one step aback again, out of balance ... even one step forward, and TWO steps backward, which amounts to uneven development, and all sorts of disarry. And this, along with a spiritual experience or insight here & there, I have certainly also known! :p
 
I recommend a reading of the Bhagavad Gita for luecy7. Once you read that (again, if you already have), you may realize that the viveka I speak of is PRECISELY what is referenced in the quote you provide where "allegedly Christ said" ~.
Whereas I recommend the ~do~ in the relationship with ~m-any~ others, and from it life and discernment may be much different. A person has some choice of what to discern over, and whether to discern for themselves or within the relationship with others. Reading a recipe and discerning over it is no substitute for putting it to practice and knowing the fruits of the labor, sharing recipes and cooking for one another.

I will likely be at odds with much which you have to say, or which anyone does, when through unknowing and often in excess zeal s/he steps forward to affirm that there have been no further revelations ~ or prophets, or Christians after Christ ~ since the time of Jesus.
My understanding of prophet, revelation, and Christian, are significantly different. Bread and words do get moldy with time. The better ones are fresh.
 
spiritual authority.

Yes, by "spiritual authority" --is meant "spiritual representative". Yes?

Invested with authority by a preceding Guru, aka, Teacher, aka Spiritual Master ---transmitted from teacher to student.

Skinker? Who are you the spiritual representative of?

What is the name of the spiritual representative you are representing?

A "Guru" is a spiritual representative of the preceding Guru before him ---just as the Catholic Church is the spiritual representative of Christ.

Back to the starting question:

What spiritual representative taught you?
What is the name of your spiritual master?
What is the name of your Guru?
Who taught you all you know?
Who are the god-brothers of your Guru?
 
Ah yes, spiritual authority. Everyone does breath and speak with the authority that God has provided them. A question is: do we use that authority to check our own words with our own life, or our own life with our own words, to check that we do not harbor a double standard?

Authority must be proven. In the empirical world (the everyday world of life) it is evident from one's ability to master the subject, correctly provide causal relationships, and predict the future. In the spiritual realm the same should be demanded. Do the words reflect the Sp-rit as we know H-r? Do they explain H-s works? Do they predict (correctly) what is to come? I think not (JMHO).
 
Yes, by "spiritual authority" --is meant "spiritual representative". Yes?
No, definitely not. I was saying that a person is a spirit, which has authority. I was responding to Skinker's line, "This means the entire Bible has no spiritual authority whatsoever..." A book is not a spirit. People are spirits having authority, which books do not have.
 
Let no one say you mince words L7, my friend! All in all (even though we come to different endpoints) your reasoning on this is quite sound (JMHO).
 
Yes, andrew, I accept we need to rise above the petty I-said-she-said discussions which tend to attach themselves to various religions. Let us get back to the level of Religion, communing with the L-ord and L-dy. The object is understanding and peace, not hatred and war. Pax.
 
Yes, andrew, I accept we need to rise above the petty I-said-she-said discussions which tend to attach themselves to various religions. Let us get back to the level of Religion, communing with the L-ord and L-dy. The object is understanding and peace, not hatred and war. Pax.
What shall we do when the boys suit up to go be understanding and peaceful with a rifle in Laos, or everywhere else? A bit of I-said-she-said discussion is precisely what needs to occur, or the bullets and body bags do the talking. You say 'Pax', but the ruling mafia you believe in has been at war full time for several centuries.
 
I invite a temporary transcendence and then you may get back to it ~ whatever it is you're after.

Ecumenist said:
Did you know that Sandy Hook is also the name of the school which was the site of a violent national tragedy in America one week ago today? It's in Connecticut, and folks, that ain't far away at all as these things go [a man named Einstein talks about it] ... so when the failure of your mind kicks in, and you insist that this, naturally, is just a coincidence, I will only shake my head and sigh. I will wonder, how long till we begin to actually perceive our world, rather than being caught up in perception itself, emotion, confusion and delusion?

Ecumenist said:
Can you not see what is happening, in Sandy Hook, and realize the Pure Positive Potential of what is going on, as this nation [The United States] is being invited to examine her crises of growth, these 112 years after crossing the cusp of Aquarius, which itself came only 124 years into our independence?

So then perceive, discern, and tell us, what spirit do you think is responsible for Hurricane Sandy? What spirit do you think is responsible for Sandy Hook? You see a correlation, claim that a spirit is behind it, shake your head and sigh, and claim to perceive and discern. You say that it is Pure Positive that the USA is invited to examine her crises of growth. So then, report your examination. Better yet, why don't you go tell those families there who lost a child, how Pure Positive it is, and what spirit you discern to have caused it. I am calling you out and putting you on the spot. Your conjecture, you call it creativity, is ever present. You infer, and claim, and don't say. So tell us what your enlightened creativity says of these two disasters. Who, or what, do you think was responsible? Jesus? Dharmajyoti? Benjamin? God? Devil? The NRA?
 
L7, you really are out there, you know? All these personal slams. We just do not agree about what having a civilized society means, or what a government is for. I do think that protecting unarmed citizens from some creep like Lanza or LePierrre is a pretty noble, honest, and self-less role.
 
I do think that protecting unarmed citizens from some creep like Lanza or LePierrre is a pretty noble, honest, and self-less role.
You don't think you could help Lanza or LePierre by doing anything other than evil to them? What is your definition of a creep? So the object is hatred and war against people that you (or someone) deems to be a creep, and you justify this behavior believing that it is somehow protecting the less creepy, unarmed citizens. What do we call this governing religion?

If I could ask the individuals who committed 9/11/2001 who they call creep, I think I would get a similar biased definition of a creep. I'm not so certain that they would be faulted any more (or less) than a person who takes hatred and war to their alleged enemy.
 
Many of us don't believe any help can be given to people like Lanza or LePierrre. That there aren't always a good option but just some that are less bad then others. You argue like a idealist, but there are many other ideas in the world that are considered equally valid.
 
Many of us don't believe any help can be given to people like Lanza or LePierrre.
Based on your words, I don't think you could help either. Who is LePierrre?

You argue like a idealist, but there are many other ideas in the world that are considered equally valid.
Are the ideas of Lanza or LePierrre considered equally valid as yours? I would rather be an idealist than a hypocrite.
 
My post #73: L7, you really are out there, you know? All these personal slams. We just do not agree about what having a civilized society means, or what a government is for. I do think that protecting unarmed citizens from some creep like Lanza or LePierrre is a pretty noble, honest, and self-less role.

You don't think you could help Lanza or LePierre by doing anything other than evil to them? What is your definition of a creep? So the object is hatred and war against people that you (or someone) deems to be a creep, and you justify this behavior believing that it is somehow protecting the less creepy, unarmed citizens. What do we call this governing religion?

Where do you see me advocating doing evil to them? That is in your mind, friend. Someone who murders 20 innocent first-graders or supports the "rights" of people to possess weapons designed, developed, and (with modifications) as military weapons is a creep to put it mildly. LaPierre is the nut (JMHO) who runs GOA says citzens need full automatics with 100-round clips to protect themselves from the "Communist Dictatorship" (as he characterizes our government). Where did I say hatred or war (how do you have war against two US citizens, one dead?). I have not the foggiest of what you are referring to as "governing religion" (we have none, thank G-d).

If I could ask the individuals who committed 9/11/2001 who they call creep, I think I would get a similar biased definition of a creep. I'm not so certain that they would be faulted any more (or less) than a person who takes hatred and war to their alleged enemy.

I do not understand what you say. You are quite obtuse in your references to 9/11 and creeps. If you are attempting to say I would kill 3,000 of Lanza's or LaPierre's friends, I do not know where you got that (your head problem, not mine). And as for the last line, again, the personal digs, egads! Cannot you answer with something like a relevant rational argument? But, I do believe in Just War Theory but would love to see (per Vincent Bugliosi) Bush 43 hauled up for 5,000 charges of murder by a local D.A. (the limit is due to the fact a local D.A. can only charge murder in the case of citizens of the US).

Since you seem (JMHO) fixed on my background, the role of government, military, and law enforcement, I suggest you start a thread dedicated to it and eliminate all the irrelevant stuff from this thread. So we can get back on topic this is my final reply to (as I said) these personal slams.

To remind everyone, the original post was:

"In the past ten or twenty years I've seen the quote by Mahatma Gandhi appear here and there, in signature files and Facebook posts, encouraging us to "BE the change we wish to see in the world" ... even as did the aspirant and initiate-Disciple Jesus of Nazareth, with other-than the warmest of reception, history records.

When a man, or even the Supermen, *groups* of people and planets entire decide to take such words of wisdom to heart (as this koan of Gandhiji's invites us to do) THEN we will see precisely the civilization and the resulting Restoration occur *when all of us knows is possible* (sic) ... and for which all Beings, in Heavens `above' as surely as in these worlds, below, expectantly awaits." On Belief and Spirituality area, by a non-Abrahamic believer."

I still think it is as nearly as good advice as Gandhiji's comment about "Western Civilization"
 
I have been on topic the entire time. Different people advocate and implement different methods of change (governing). One person may think: It is heroic and good to make the world better by fighting and eliminating those who do evil. Another may think: God tells me what is good and evil, I am a prophet sharing what God wants, and these symbols will change everyone for the better. Another may think: The evil was really done for our own good, and we just need to discern the good spirit behind it. Another may think: We should just change ourselves, share our own beliefs, and ignore our neighbor, but get the guns if someone crosses us. Another may think: It is good to just meditate and eliminate yourself, and do whatever you want because good is evil, evil is good, and discerning a difference is just foolish dualism. Another may think: There is only one way to heaven, via my lord and church, so follow me and pay the tithing.

We have here different people advocating different methods of change. If you don't like discussing the methods that you personally advocate or implement in your lives, perhaps we should review the methods of personal change and neighborly change implemented and taught by Jesus Christ?
 
I do not agree. "Different methods of change" does not equate to "governing". What a person thinks does not imply that thought is "true", in terms of either "absolute truth" or "empirical truth". One may think that all mathematics is true, consistent and complete... fine, it ain't. One may think the world is flat, again, it ain't. Reality trumps thought (if and only if the thought can be proved to be inconsistent with reality). What you advocate is relaticvism gone wild.

As far as the second paragraph goes, again, I am at a loss. "Methods of change" does not seem to mean the same to me as you.

I started a "Civilized Society" thread.

What do you see as "the methods of personal change and neighborly change implemented and taught by Jesus Christ?"
 
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