React to insults--Why turn other Cheek

[Bhaktajan II]

This is a verbatim excerpt from the Ancient Epic, "The Maha-Bharata":

Importance of self-control


Yudhisthira inquired, “How should one react to people who insult you by their rudeness and arrogance?”

Bhisma replied, “If one does not become angry when insulted by another, then he takes away all the pious merit that person may have accumulated by good deeds. In addition he transfers to the abuser his own sinful reactions. After all what is the value of praise or blame when uttered by a vulgar fool? A person who praises some one in his presence but criticizes him behind his back is no better that a dog.”


Yudhisthira, “How should one debate with an unscrupulous person?”

Bhisma replied, “In a debate the tactics of a truthful person are limited, but a deceitful person can utilize any abominable method. However if the truthful person were to use the same tactics as his opponent, he will find himself at a greater disadvantage, for he is acting contrary to his nature. Therefore a truthful and honest person should always avoid an argument with an unscrupulous person.”

Yudhisthira then inquired, “How should one behave towards a more powerful enemy?”

Bhisma replied, “Even though the swift current of the river can uproot and carry huge trees, the canes survive since they bend with the current. Similarly in order to survive an enemy more powerful, one must yield while staying firmly anchored to the roots.”

Yudhisthira inquired, “What should a weak person do if out of foolishness and pride he provokes a powerful enemy?”

Bhisma replied, “O King, the weaker person must repent and thus appease the stronger enemy.”

Yudhisthira inquired, “What is the origin of all sin?”

Bhisma replied, “Greed, the hankering to posses more than one’s naturally ordained quota is the origin of all sin. The desire to posses that which belongs to another is insatiable and gives rise to anger, lust, loss of judgment, arrogance, miserliness, lack of compassion, enviousness, mistrust and many other evils. Ignorance is made up of the same material as greed, though if analyzed it can be seen that ignorance also comes from greed. As one’s greed increases, his ignorance also becomes more dense.”

Yudhisthira inquired, “What produces the highest merit?”

Bhisma replied, “Self-restraint surpasses all other activities in this regard and is therefore considered to be the highest virtue. Because self-restraint purifies and controls every aspect of one’s life it is more important than giving in charity and the study of the Vedas. By self-restraint alone one can achieve liberation from the material world. Self-restraint comprises sense-control, freedom from anger, non-enviousness, impartiality, truthfulness, steadiness and contentment. However, the essential quality of self-restraint is austerity. Thus no good can be achieved without austerity.”

Yudhisthira then inquired, “O Bhisma, is there any rule that should never be violated under any condition?”

Bhisma replied. “The worship of true brahmans and giving them all kinds of respect must never be given up under any circumstance”

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sure, agree.

 

[luecy7]

Bhisma replied, “In a debate the tactics of a truthful person are limited, but a deceitful person can utilize any abominable method. However if the truthful person were to use the same tactics as his opponent, he will find himself at a greater disadvantage, for he is acting contrary to his nature. Therefore a truthful and honest person should always avoid an argument with an unscrupulous person.”

Bhisma was apparently ignorant of the power of God, and a self centered hypocrite.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There was no one as firm and truthful in Indian mythology as Bhishma. Even now a vow not abandoned is known as 'Bhishma's vow'. Bhishma was a grandfather (in relation) to Lord Krishna (Krishna and Arjuna were cousins, and Bhishma was Arjuna's grandfather's brother). Bhishma was a warrior who even made God abandon his vow.

Krishna had vowed that he would not take up arms in Mahabharata war. But Bhishma fought so furiously that Krishna had to take up the wheel of Arjuna's chariot as a weapon to stop Bhishma, otherwise Bhishma would have annihilated all Pandava army. Bhishma himself was a God (Prabhasa, being one of the Vasus).

 

[luecy7]

There was no one as firm and truthful in Indian mythology as Bhishma.

Then I am saying the author of the myth, the author of Bhishma's words, was apparently ignorant of the power of God, and a self centered hypocrite. There are surely many that are more fluid and truthful, in Indian reality.

 

[Dream]

Yudhisthira then inquired, “O Bhisma, is there any rule that should never be violated under any condition?”

Bhisma replied. “The worship of true brahmans and giving them all kinds of respect must never be given up under any circumstance”

In the Bible there are levels of sanity and insanity, called 'Wickedness' and 'Righteousness'. (I am heavily paraphrasing). There are strategies to get rid of insanity and increase sanity. If your wife is evil to you then you should try appeasement to help her madness, usually. If she is riding around shooting people, then you should restrain her to help her with her madness. At the same time, you cannot consider yourself to be a better person -- only an equal trying to do the right thing, valuing her life but also yours. This seems very much in line with Bhisma's last statement. Did Yudhisthira reply?

bhaktajan, I think that all of the principles you have mentioned are true principles and also that these are incorporated in the the Bible, however in the Bible there is the 'Short term' and there is the 'Long term'. There is the idea as well of the infinite always was and always will be. There is also fortune and misfortune, both of which are random in the short term. There is also a hierarchy of priorities that depends upon the situation. In the pursuit of upholding righteousness, it is sometimes appropriate to appease an evil or even an evil king but not always and not forever. If appeasement works, then it is appropriate to use it against that particular evil; but some evils do not respond to appeasement or pass on. I think that is one difference between your quotations of Yudhisthera and the Bible, but I haven't heard all of his statements. Its possible I am projecting my ideas onto him or am misunderstanding him. Would he not restrain a madman, and would he deny that madness exists? I don't think he would. He would probably have some principle by which that madman would be restrained for its own good. Appeasement would be one possibility but so would restraint on the basis of what you are calling 'Worship of Brahmans', a portion of which is (if I understand you) present within people. You are Brahman, I am Brahman, etc. Is that correct?

Also, I'm not lecturing you on your own faith. I'm arguing however. Call it an opportunity to educate me.

 

[radarmark]

Yes, educate us. And do so by turning the other cheek to those who would slander you.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

In the Bible:
levels of sanity & insanity ['Wickedness' and 'Righteousness'] ---and
Strategies to get rid of them.

This is what old fashion "Karma Yoga" is all about.
The ten Commandments are a Primer on "Karma Yoga".
"Karma Yoga" = "Do good acts/works; Do Not do bad acts/works".

The is analysis of good versus bad acts in the Vedas ---aside from Karma-kanda inspired rituals (rituals for attaining benedictions from departed saints and sages and demi-gouges and semi-dios and demigods) ---the Vedas examine the structural components of Soul, body, Mind, desires matter, energy ---all for the purpose of identifying "What is what".

Such knowing of "What is what", as per the Vedas, leads to knowing:
"I am NOT the temporal body ---I am Spirit Soul in a material Body".

The vessel of a material Body encases a "spirit soul".
The presence of a "spirit [non-mundane material energy] soul"
gives life and animates
the material Body [mundane material energy].

So either we are aloof from the temporal material pleasures of life ---or we are purveyors of temporal material pleasures of life.

Yes, being 'moderate in all things' ---allows for gradually knowing that there is a higher non-mundane material purpose to existence.

It also, allows time to contemplate the fleeting nature of Life and its amusements.

At the same time, you cannot consider yourself to be a better person -- only an equal trying to do the right thing, valuing her life but also yours.


A policeman sees a victim receiving punishment
from a perpetrator of Violence
---it is the victims "past-karma" aka "Past-Works"
revisiting in the form of "pay-back"
(aka, what-goes-around-comes-around; aka, 'karma' ~FYI: taken alone, the sanskrit word, 'karma' simply means "action, or, Work")
---nevertheless,
this is of no concern of a policeman.
A policeman must rush to the aide, and preform his alloted Policeman's Dharma (duty).

As per the Gita's (chap 18 verse47) advise:

"It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one's nature are never affected by sinful reactions."

This seems very much in line with Bhisma's last statement.
Did Yudhisthira reply?

Yes this is out of context ---so there certainly additional dialogue to be found

however in the Bible there is the 'Short term' and there is the 'Long term'.
It is like there is "Karma-kanda-like" concessions to humans ---because they are only human--- to "Enjoy" and to seek out "pleasure" etc.
The sacraments & the Mitzvas hearken to road maps to avoid or compensate for mis-haps and "bad-karma".

Karma-kanda like mindsets is about plans for 'Short term' and there is the 'Long term' gains.


If appeasement works, then it is appropriate to use it against that particular evil; but some evils do not respond to appeasement or pass on.

I lost the point your making: Capital Punishment is good for the evil doer ---it allows the executed to preform no more "Bad-Karma incurring acts" whilst paying for the evil commited

I think that is one difference between your quotations of Yudhisthera and the Bible, but I haven't heard all of his statements.

The advise is about self-control of one's actions.

'Worship of Brahmans',
"Brahmana(s)" or Brahman(s) --- refers to an actual Caste of society. The Warrior caste must abide the advise and tutelage of the Intelligentsia known as the Brahman Class. It is like saying obey your elders ---It's like Mr Miyagi tolds you to Wax-on, Wax-off.
Mr. Miyagi - Balance - YouTube

IMO, the citation I posted in the OP is about how Karma behaves in inter-personal relationships; and how it affects one's self ---aka, avoiding "Energy Vampires" and "Crazy Makers"
Psychic vampire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Am I a "Energy Vampires" or a "Crazy Makers"?

 

[luecy7]

I lost the point your making: Capital Punishment is good for the evil doer ---it allows the executed to preform no more "Bad-Karma incurring acts" whilst paying for the evil commited

Now there is a real head banger. I certainly did not figure you as an author of the alleged myth, but then you go and say this? Hannibal Lecter (another alleged myth), would be very proud of you. Sort of a, "It is good that I eat him, because it helps carve the sin out of him." Or, "It is good that I punish him for what he says, because it protects him from his own Bad Karma". Gee thank you sir, can I have another?

From my viewpoint: The person that slaps is intolerant of something that was said. The intolerance is selfish, but to protect one's own cheek at all costs is also selfish. The person that punishes is intolerant of some action. The intolerance is selfish, but to protect one's own life at all costs is also selfish. It is a pickle. In the face of an unscrupulous person, speaking out is going to require sacrifice. There is little doubt of that in the person that gets threatened or punished with a gun in their face. Sacrifice is a choice. There is reward, but there is material expended. Turning the other cheek is an offer, but Bishma recommends removing all offers from the table and punting off to someone else.

From my perspective, Bhisma is already similar to the unscrupulous person that he may temporarily encounter, because he really wants to influence or change something about another person in the use of debate and tactics, but then presents that selfish and hypocritical nature: Must win at all costs in the face of an unscrupulous person. If he had instead said, "Therefore a truthful and honest person knows that an argument or disagreement with an unscrupulous person is going to involve some sacrifice, but it is good to be fair and give them that opportunity to argue it out."... Then in one sentence he would present a whole different character. Loving an unscrupulous person is nowhere near Bhisma's words, and from my perspective in that statement, he is the unscrupulous person.

I have vested time with, contended with, and argued with, a few that have behaved extra unscrupulously (felony level) here or there, and I have confessed to behaving unscrupulously here or there. Exceedingly rewarding. Nearly the opposite of what Bhisma (or Bhisma's author), has said. However, the reward is not from the actions of the unscrupulous person, in that moment. That part is rather unpleasant.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Now there is a real --- can I have another?

If YOUR COUNTRY allows automatic firearms [aka Machine-guns] to be sold to the public ---it is a MAFIA enterprise.

Yes, battling the MAFIA is infamously difficult!

Good Luck overcoming the governmental policies of a MAFIA STATE.

a] The quagmire of overcoming the resistance of a singular Manufacturer and their "Commodity for sale" ---is an easy problem to solve--- except for one thing "Who dares battles the MAFIA"?

Maybe joining another Mafia family? Like Gerard Depardieu?

b] The American National Rifleman Association spoke about this ---but the Faux NewsHeadline was something about battling the MAFIA ---which no ones wants to volunteer for. Whereas, the initial quagmire is A CULTURE OF LIVING ZOMBIES known as Sheeple.
Yes, stop automatic firearms to be sold to the public ---BUT STOP THE Homocidal-Pornagraphy ie: Mortal Combat and

Video games have been studied for links to addiction and aggression but results have been conflicting.
Video game controversies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who is arguing with the RESULTS? Could they be Privtive Interests Groups?
Did it occur to you the the entire MEDIA INDUSTRY do not produce anything; yet without all the "Man bites dog" events ---the entire MEDIA INDUSTRY would have no other conflicts to report.

World peace = the death of the entire MEDIA INDUSTRY.

c] "Retired Police" posted in each school ---seems to have people arguing--- Who is arguing? How do these arguers getting their arguments into the News Papers? Maybe they are subsidised by those news-mongers?

d] Those that have raised an uproar about the Gun industries' prevalence ---are the first to hire armed security!

Self-defense is a reality of life.

The false compassion of animal lovers that also eat animals ---attests to the true-real-life falsity of their life.

The murderer earns the honor to be executed ---out of compassion--- But the false ego-based idea that "No One should ever be executed" due to a magnanimous sensibility is an "Innocent by Sanity" defense.

How can educated people with first-rate manicures allow MASS MURDERERS to live instead of being executed? Only one reason! It pays well!

Soon you will be able to invest in your choice of Prison Systems and thus earn financial interest on your principle investment.

I predict that in the far future ---more of the populace will be imprisoned [no to be conflated with: Stalin's Russia; nor West Africa's Slave Trade; nor China's One Child Policy; nor Japan's WW2 conscription laws]--- and the elite will be those that do not live in a prison states.

Please show your papers when passing through ---if you do not want to be harassed.

e] BTW, the rumors are now that Gun Sales are booming!

Irony in a world of Ying-Yang is commonplace.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

????

I have vested time with, contended with, and argued with, a few that have behaved extra unscrupulously (felony level) here or there, and I have confessed to behaving unscrupulously here or there.


Exceedingly rewarding.

This is exactly what was described:

"tactics of a truthful person are limited,
but
a deceitful person can
utilize any ... method."

Is this what you confess as "Exceedingly rewarding"???

 

[Dream]

Thanks for that reply. Of the rest I will respond to this:

The false compassion of animal lovers that also eat animals ---attests to the true-real-life falsity of their life.

This response may be a little disturbing to you, because I have to mention some details.

Only once in my life have I felt guilty about eating meat and only recently. It was some barbeque already prepared. It struck me as very strange. Now there was a previous time that I was required to actually carve a smoked pig myself at an event, and it was a church event. I was a teenager, and afterwards I could not eat it and covered its head. Something about actually seeing it made me lose my appetite. Notice that eating pork is prevalent here, and only a small percentage refuse it. Those who do usually will eat fish or at least will eat eggs. The only exception are Vegans, but Vegans are unusually sensitive to animals. I dated a Vegan, and she was extremely sensitive. If she heard that a mouse had been bitten by a flea she would be upset. We went to a Vegan restaurant that specialized in meat substitutions. They added 'Liquid smoke' to everything. (I gave up trying to find out the ingredients of Liquid Smoke. I guess Liquid Smoke is actual liquified smoke.)

Is it wrong to eat animals?....Well, it isn't perfectly right. Very little that we do is, however. I think that change is on the way, too. First there is something called synthetic meat being grown in lab dishes. It is hoped that this will (someday soon) supplement or replace natural meat altogether, and has several huge advantages. It makes a lot less carbon, it doesn't require acres of corn, and you don't have to kill anything to eat it. It is going to take time and further research to make synthetic meat marketable. It potentially could be a much cheaper product than regular meat, so killing of animals would decrease that way. That would be good news, especially for sensitive people like you. The price of 'Regular' meat is on the rise. Even in the USA the price keeps going up, because the industry has to deal with supply problems. This means the industry is making the same money, but people are eating less meat. That is another reason for you to be happy.

Honestly I understand that animals feel pain, but for me it is very easy to separate eating meat from killing humans. I also feel compassion for animals when I am around them, such as dogs and cats. I don't like to torment animals. This does not seem dishonest to me. They would eat me, would they not? They have no morals at all so far as I can tell.

People have morals, so we don't kill them or eat them unless they are already dead. In some places (not USA) eating the flesh of the dead relative at a funeral is a way of honoring the person, but this is not equated with killing them. Killing them would be an act of war anywhere, but killing animals is only looked down upon by a few people such as yourself. Do you have any idea why you, Bahktajan, are so animated by this issue?

 

[luecy7]

????

This is exactly what was described:

"tactics of a truthful person are limited,
but
a deceitful person can
utilize any ... method."

Is this what you confess as "Exceedingly rewarding"???

The reward I was referring to is the witnessing and betterment of the relationship with a higher power (God), potentially that unscrupulous person, and the improved perspective on things and behavior. People can change. I am saying that taking on a relationship with a known unscrupulous person (a criminal), seeking ways to help them, learning and rebuking the behavior that is unscrupulous, finding and learning the hypocrite head banger arguments that come out of it, is exceedingly rewarding. It is also humbling as I evaluate my own behavior in light of the different perspective, but the improved foundation is part of the reward. Perhaps more so than the relationship with the kinship or kindred, but the challenge is there too. The negative is the sacrifice, but who really gets to keep those cute cheeks and possessions anyway?! Bhisma is lost and will not go here.

A policeman must rush to the aide, and preform his alloted Policeman's Dharma (duty).

As per the Gita's (chap 18 verse47) advise:

"It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one's nature are never affected by sinful reactions."

Absolute horrid read of the Gita. Terrible. Hannibal Lecter would be very proud. From my viewpoint, occupation and nature may be chosen, should a person start to actually live and take responsibility for their actions. People can change. Whereas, I am sure that Hannibal Lecter and the policeman would love the 'cop out' to enjoy their nature and occupation, unimpeded by anyone rebuking them.

As I have said to a few others before: the easiest relationship is the one with wife and family because there is actually a glue there to help hold it together. So try a more difficult relationship, and consider it a challenge to stay together yet to stay rightful, truthful, and loving, per the golden rule.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

You stated the word "Animal" five times + "animated" once:

animals
animals
animals
animals.
animals
Do you have any idea why you,
Bhaktajan, are so animated by this issue?

The word "anima" = "Soul" in the language known as 'Latin'.

The word "anima" = the root-word for the word, "Animated".

I am a karma-yogi who has graduated to jnana-yoga (pron., 'gya-na') and thus, I naturally gravitated to a student of Bhakti-yoga.

As a result my opinions represent the wisdom spoken by Shree Krishna (La Suprema personalidad de Dios) to His cousin Arjuna in the Book known as the Bhagavad-gita.

In short, I am a yogi, so thus, I talk like a yogi, about yogi topics, from a yoga perspective.

BTW, "Cow is mother".

PS: You do realise that your stated POVs are "Human-Centric" ---whereas it is correct to think and act and live this way--- we actually are "Beings".

We are living Beings in a world of other living Beings ---altogether enduring the "Elements". So while Humans are at the top of the chain-of-command ---we appear naked and hapless;, and later we will lose our body to dust.

The reason for all this to occurs is for the "Anima" to rise above the base and bestial stratum of being.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Absolute horrid read of the Gita. Terrible. Hannibal Lecter would be very proud. From my viewpoint, occupation and nature may be chosen, should a person start to actually live and take responsibility for their actions. People can change. Whereas, I am sure that Hannibal Lecter and the policeman would love the 'cop out' to enjoy their nature and occupation, unimpeded by anyone rebuking them.

Why do you inject Hannibal Lector [the cannibal of a fiction movie]? Why?

Are you a meat eater?

I eat NO meat. I eat NO fish. I eat NO eggs. I eat NO chicken. I have been a lacto-vegetarian for decades. Today I observed ekadasi-fast [an esoteric mitzva observed by the brahminical minded]. I am a staunch vegetarian for ech and every reason that has ever been stated by anyone talking about this subject.

As a matter of fact we are DIGRESSING from the OP ---but, lo and behold, I just realised that MEAT-EATERS ...{ready for this one?} ... MEAT-EATERS EXPECT lowly beasts to "Turn the Other Cheek" so as to be beaten down and dissected for some agenda or special commemoration or as a plan "A" to get a Date into bed.

"Whenever a sardine is cramped . . .
a fisher of fish,
finds himself
sojourning
in the deep
blue sea" ---adapted, by bhaktajan, from the movie "It's a Beautiful Life"

 

[Bhaktajan II]

BTW, what does this mean?:

Originally Posted by luecy7

Absolute horrid read of the Gita. Terrible.

This is a most authoritative rendering of the Sanskrit-to-English of the Bhagavad-gita that could ever be produced:

Translated by a bonefide sanskrit scholar and orthodox Hindu, named Bhaktivedanta Swami:

Bhagavad-gita chap 18 verse 47:
It is better to engage in one’s own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another’s occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one’s nature are never affected by sinful reactions.

Originally Posted by luecy7
Absolute horrid read of the Gita. Terrible.

What is it you are saying?

a] You have a more authoritative
rendering of this verse ---Sanskrit-to-English---than
that done by Bhaktivedanta Swami's
"Bhagavad-Gita As-it-is"?

b] You are shocked to read ancient scripture that advises people to preform the Obligated Duties?

BTW, the very important and ever ubiquitous Sanskrit word "Dharma" translates into English as: Obligated Duties.

IOW, you are free of "Neglect of duty" if there is a party that is responsible to "perfrom the duty" ---we are not obliged to inspect a Motorway Accident if there already are Police on the scene ---As the Old Police scene saying says:

"Every body go home, there's nothing to gawk at here".

My forum name is bhaktajan and I approve of this Message,
your personal Bhaktajan

PS: are you gonna 'drop' the Cannibal celebrity name again?

Who is to be inferred as analogous to Cannibals? Me?

 

[luecy7]

Why do you inject Hannibal Lector [the cannibal of a fiction movie]? Why?

Are you a meat eater?

As an obvious example of a selfish, self centered hypocrite. If the viewpoint stated by Bhisma or yourself were hard to see, I was falling back on an example that might have been more obvious and in tune with your stated diet. The argument that 'it his nature' or 'it is all good karmic behavior' would be fine with Hannibal Lecter.

 

[luecy7]

BTW, what does this mean?:

I meant your read and translation was horrid, from my perspective.

b] You are shocked to read ancient scripture that advises people to preform the Obligated Duties?

Rather, that the Obligated Duties is not the obligation that you indicate, and the nature is not the nature that you imply. Between good, passion, and ignorance as stated in chapter 18, (as an example, applying it to someone), Bhisma describes his passion and ignorance, his desire to not be a victim, and his darkness of the unscrupulous. Not good. He is missing the sacrifice. To call the not-good behavior a nature, or an obligated duty, is against several of the verses of the chapter. Similarly though, to point to the police and enjoy the fruits of their work, with passion in the fruits of their work, with darkness of contending with the unscrupulous, well that is expressly covered in chapter 18 too.

PS: are you gonna 'drop' the Cannibal celebrity name again?

Who is to be inferred as analogous to Cannibals? Me?

Analogous to anyone who behaves as a selfish hypocrite. I was framing the teaching of Bhisma, but then you shocked me, and you did chime in with a couple of very similar examples, from my perspective. Hannibal the Cannibal would be proud. I don't know you personally, so maybe you are just trying to trick me into studying the Gita.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

I meant your read and translation was horrid, from my perspective.

before you quit this thread ---I suspect you actually making a valid point...but what is the point.

I loss your train of thought more and more each time you explain your statement.

IE:

I meant your read and translation was horrid, from my perspective.

I believe you are and have been referring to the Opening Post.

It stands alone as "advise from a Grandsire of a Dynasty to an Emperor of a Dynasty" ---that later was followed [or was it before?] by a Civil War.

It is Obligated Duty for a child to attend schooling ---even if the child can teach the subject.

I see the OP as "Good Advise".

Where did I skew from it?

The only provocative mention I see in the OP is the reference to "Brahmanas".

Trick 'anybody' into reading the Gita?

Isn't such "trickery" preferable to:
demanding that our super well educated staff of young intellects at Interpol and similarly Intel-Security Agencies to spend all their time deciphering covert memorandums?

BTW, "What is your Perspective?"