A perspective on the esoteric

Wil,

I would say it is only our lower self that is destroyed just before we enter into nirvana. I think our Higher Self is still very much 'alive' as it enters into nirvana. As a matter of fact, I would say it is impossible for our lower self to enter into nirvana, and must be destroyed and left behind before we can enter into nirvana.

I don't think the total human is destroyed upon achieving nirvana, as some traditions within Buddhism seem to be saying.

"A higher level of consciousness than the human level?"

--> Yes, I think there is a higher level of consciousness than the human level.
 
Hi all —
Yes, we do appear to be getting on famously.

Just popped in to say, in light of comments above, that the Orthodox hesychast tradition, the Prayer of Stillness, is adamant that participation in the highest state can be 'known' or 'experienced' here, now, in the body. That mortal flesh can 'know' and 'experience' the light of Mount Tabor in all its Divine fullness.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Nick....I am still stuck with this....

Now again,It is comforting to know that all of the esoteric teachings will be released to all of us by the time we reach enlightenment and nirvana at the end of the human race.

I don't know what to believe about an afterlife or nirvana, I think all the nice contemplations are just that, nice contemplations, I don't see where we have any evidence for any of it, but it is many religions favorite carrot, heaven/hell, nirvanna, rebirth, rebirth as what, castes, etc...

But since in thousands of years of contemplations and studies we are stuck with a variety of choices none of which have been able to be proven....it is my juncture to live life, do the best I can here and learn a little something along the way.

Along those lines I'm still baffled by your above statement....it appears you are shying away from it, implying some have acheived another level (in christianity some believe their ancestors are in heaven with their relatives and Jesus 'looking down' others interpret the text as saying they are all waiting for second coming) I see a similar dichotomy with your recent statements.
 
Namaste Thomas.... a joy to behold, is it that new age initiated at the end of the Mayan Calendar....have we succumb to its power??

Whatever tis a good discussion, and I just was writing whilst you were posting and missed it....but I believe I've had those glimpses into momentary blisses of that which I cannot explain. Can you expound upon what you have just stated?
 
Good job, Thomas! Theoria (contemplation looking within), hesychasm (stillness within) and eremitism (separation from the world) are rarely discussed traditions. They are pretty analogous to some Hindu-Buddhist-Taoist traditions.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thycloset, and when thou hast shut thy door, prayto thy Father which is in secret; and thy Fatherwhich seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Pretty good advice.
 
Wil,

You said,

"....it is my juncture to live life, do the best I can here and learn a little something along the way."

--> That's a very good philosophy. It sounds like you are making good progress along the path (whatever that path may be).

"I see a similar dichotomy with your recent statements."

--> I'm not sure what you mean. Are you pointing out how some people have already achieved nirvana while others have not?
 
radar, I'm not sure I follow your objection. I maintain that the Occult Hierarchy was founded on Earth 18 million years ago. Most of the figures of that Brotherhood are, or have been, sadly and sorely misunderstood, persecuted, crucified or otherwise poorly greeted by a Humanity reluctant to give up her worldly ways and get ON with the next stage of evolution. The story is quite a familiar one, even if the specifics of the given historical period of a particular people, place & culture must be considered.

Golden Ages may have occurred, yet in recent history, kicking against the pricks is simply the way of things. It has been occurring at the start of the last SEVERAL zodiacal eras. Currently, we are 113 years into Aquarius. Can't you TELL? :eek:

So, to say that esotericism existed 2500 years ago seems irrelevant to my stating that WHY it has existed is that people have ALWAYS known that there is an astral plane, or a higher MIND ~ being the Universal, the Spiritual, or otherwise the DIVINE.

The point is, some have been, and are able to EXPERIENCE that ... consciously, with recollection, and somehow managing to live and tell about it. Those who have been most profoundly moved and Inspired have often come to us as Reformers and Messengers, bringing as much of New Revelation as the given people of a culture, place & time have been able or willing to accept.

Esotericism is not a religious movement that BEGAN at some specific place in time. Yet if you want to begin with beginnings, at least consider the 18-million-year mark as the proper Pedigree for Humanity's humble origins {which quickly find us probing far, FAR further back into the dark night of time, if we wish to get all the particulars} ~ rather than 2500, or even 8,000 years ago.

Either study Gobekli-Tepe and start putting together the pieces of a Wisdom Tradition which existed PRE-Glacial period and RECENT flood events of ~10,500 BC, which even PLATO - that great Initiate - records in the final sinking of Poseidonis/Atlantis in 9564BC ... or else I think you will fare quite as well by defining `esotericism' by hitting the `I feel lucky' page on Google and just choosing any 3 random sentences which appear to be gramatically sound.

I do feel there is objectivity here, even while I like to see what others are contributing. I just don't get the focusing on 2500 years ago. The Buddha was certainly alive just prior to then, whose Heart and Eye Doctrines have never been properly understood by the masses, any more than Christ's esoteric utterances, or `Dark Sayings'. If you want to discuss modern esotericism, you might for clarity's sake START WITH HIM.

Yet the Egyptian Tradition dates to 204,000 BCE or so. Why the confusion over dates? Frankly, I have a hard time remembering Atlantis, a million years ago or so. But I would be a fool to deny what *I do not know* as equally as I would to deny what I DO know. :eek:
 
Wil,

You said,

"....it is my juncture to live life, do the best I can here and learn a little something along the way."

--> That's a very good philosophy. It sounds like you are making good progress along the path (whatever that path may be).

"I see a similar dichotomy with your recent statements."

--> I'm not sure what you mean. Are you pointing out how some people have already achieved nirvana while others have not?

No, yes, I am just slow. Didn't grasp it all. You stated it will be released to ALL at the end of the human race....I've caught up now....sort of.
 
echumenist. No, there is no empirical proof of any influences of a "higher order" here on earth 18 million years ago. Nor is there any empirical proof of "higher masters". Nor any of zodiacal influence. Nor any dating of Atlantis. Or Egyptian culture much before the first dynasty. Sorry, I do not have to take your word (or that of somebody else) for it.

I understand why you believe these things (some need for certainty). I do not need that crutch. And if I am wrong, so be it I am willing to pay whatever penalties await me. To do otherwise I would be violating what I feel the moral and honest path for myself. I am not in so saying that you are immortal or dishonest.

40,000 years ago (the first empirical evidence of Homo Sapiens in North Africa) is far enough back for me. And they had some rituals associated with death, hearth, and home. That is what I accept, because of my wide application of the term religion. I see no real empirical evidence for anything (even human beings) before that. And none at all for advanced civilizations before that. And none at all for Mahavir, Gautama or Jesus alive before their recorded eras. Sorry, guess I am not spiritual enough to share your kool-aid.
 
Hi Wil —
... but I believe I've had those glimpses into momentary blisses of that which I cannot explain.
I believe so too, I believe we all have ... But we should proceed carefully. Christianity doesn't make too much of 'bliss'; it's a bit too 'erotic' for the Latin West, and far too psychologically suspect for the Greek East!

Christianity tends to think that 'bliss' misses the point ... in that the quest is not for personal enjoyment, as it were, and bliss is just an overload ... but then again, we're not all ascetics!
Can you expound upon what you have just stated?
What, me, blether on about Christian theology? fnark Does the pope pee in the woods? (No, hang on, that's not right ... does a bear go to church on Sundays? No, still wrong ... aw, forget it! Anyway ...)

What I'm putting below speaks of a linear ascent, but humans are more organic than that, so a person can occupy different points along the path, be high one moment, low the next ... but what matters in the end is constancy, that determines the average, if you like. And inconsistency tends to undo all the good that is done.

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The practice of hesychia can be traced back to Scripture ... It came to the fore in certain Eastern monasteries who claimed that through ascetic practice it is possible to perfect quietude of body and mind and arrive at a vision of the Uncreated Light of the Godhead.

The idea was not universally accepted, although I think much of this has to do with poor transmission. The West especially took issue over the implication that 'technique' could be used to induce the Beatific Vision (if that is what the monks actually meant), and to the idea that one could 'see' the Holy Spirit. There was quite a hoo-ha, and it became one of those ‘issues’ that separated East and West, although it now seems there is a rappprochementhesychia is OK and Gregory Palamas, who defended it against the Latins, is considered a saint, although he has yet to be ‘officially’ beatified.

Hesychia neverthless is regarded as an 'advanced' (although not esoteric) spiritual practice, in that it requires the total renunciation of the world. Saint John Climacus says: "A hesychast is one who strives to confine his incorporeal being within his bodily house." Saint Theophan says of hesychia that: "This activity of the heart is surrounded and guarded by preserving stillness of thought." He goes on to say "neither earnest prayer nor inviolable activity of the heart can ever be achieved if the heart is not first completely disengaged from affairs." The key to peace of mind is a heart that is utterly detached from all temptations.

Such ascesis is not simply a technique, it is a way of life. Nor is it something 'one has to do', like giving up cakes if you want to run a marathon, it is something one chooses to do, rather than any other. It's a vocation, a calling.

St Maximus the Confessor wrote much about this. Indeed, in his exegesis of the Transfiguration, when Moses and Elijah appear alongside Our Lord, they stand for the Law and the Prophets respectively, which he corellates to asceticism and spiritual insight — the two things necessary to make the journey of Mount Tabor.

+++

Ascetic struggle is the first stage, "the complete mortification and cessation of desire in the senses" (apatheia), but that does mean one eventually surpasses it, or not longer has to practice it. The ascetic struggle is a lifelong one. It's a dynamic practice.

Once a man makes that choice, then the entire pantheon of the angels and the saints open up to him:
For God provides equally to all the power that naturally leads to salvation, so that each one who wishes can be transformed by divine grace. And nothing prevents anyone from willing to become Melchisedec, and Abraham, and Moses, and simply transferring all these Saints to himself, not by changing names and places, but by imitating their forms and way of life
(This, by the way, shows the error of those who read the doctrine of reincarnation as being present in Christian Scripture. Many cite Luke: “And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples also were with him: and he asked them, saying: Whom do the people say that I am? But they answered, and said: John the Baptist; but some say Elias; and others say that one of the former prophets is risen again. And he said to them: But whom do you say that I am? Simon Peter answering, said: The Christ of God” (Luke 9:18-20).

In the oral tradition it is understood that the same spirit animates all, so when the people say ‘John the Baptist’ or “Elias’, they don’t mean these figures reincarnated, but rather the same animating spirit “is risen again” in that person, not the person is risen again as another.)

+++

The fruit of the ascetic struggle is the acquisition of virtue. In the Christian tradition, the virtues are the gift of God, that flower in the soul that has been cleansed by the rigours of spiritual discipline.

One of the blessings that the indwelling Presence of the spiritual virtues conveys is the ability to read and understand revelation: "As soon as anyone practices the virtues with true intelligence, he acquires a spiritual understanding of Scripture" (Centuries on Knowledge).

Maximus insists that we may attain correct knowledge of things divine, but such an attainment is not of our own devising: "a man whose intellect has been formed by the knowledge that comes by dint of the virtues through the divine Spirit is said to experience divine things; for he has acquired such knowledge not by nature, thanks simply to his existence, but by grace, thanks to his participation in it." (Centuries on Knowledge).

Spiritual knowledge, then, is a divine gift, and this is what the Orthodox calls "theology" — not at all the academic pursuit of the West — St Theophan said "the theologian is one who prays". The practice of theology then is not in the acquisition of facts about God, but in a completely transforming process in God and for God so that, with St. Paul, we may say, "It is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me." (Galatians 2:20).

This transposition of the self, this total gift of the self, through ascesis and prayer, means that the spiritual knowledge acquired consists not of tangible facts and figures that can be discussed and disseminated, but is to be understood more as knowledge beyond the empirical. (Or as I have been arguing: esoteric knowledge.) For Maximus, "spiritual knowledge unites knower and known" in "an erotic union in the Spirit." (Centuries on Knowledge)

The spiritual knowledge we acquire does not provide us with any "new data" beyond the Christ of Scripture. Maximus especially eschewed the pursuit of innovation that was so prevalent in 2nd century Gnosticism, but rather declares that spiritual knowledge takes one into the realm of tried and true dogma: "the saints have received the many divine mysteries ... and were immediately initiated into knowledge of reality in accordance with the tradition passed down to them from those before them." (Difficulty 42).
Not only is spiritual knowledge not new information, it is a way of knowing that transcends knowledge as it is commonly understood — and this too is an ongoing dynamic process:
Having become man he (Christ) himself remains completely incomprehensible, and shows his own Incarnation ... to be more incomprehensible than any mystery. The more he becomes comprehensible through it, so much the more through it is he known to be incomprehensible. 'For he is hidden after his revelation,' the teacher says, 'or, to speak more divinely, also in his revelation.' And this mystery of Jesus in itself remains hidden, and can be drawn out by no reason, by no intellect, but when spoken of it remains ineffable, and when understood, unknown. (italics are mine. What Maximus is talking about is true faith, and nothing less.)

+++

Of all those who have undertaken the path of ascesis and prayer, and have been granted the virtues leading to theology, some will ascend still higher via a "hidden apophatic theology" in which "the blessed and holy Godhead is by essence beyond ineffability and unknowability and countlessly raised above all infinity, leaving not the slightest trace of comprehension to those who are after it, nor disclosing any idea to any being."

Maximus sketches out what awaits them as awaited the Apostles whom Christ took with Him to His Transfiguration:
They passed over from flesh to spirit, before they had put aside this fleshly life, by the change in their powers of sense that the Spirit worked in them ... Then, having both the bodily and the spiritual senses purified, they were taught the spiritual meanings (logoi) of the mysteries that were shown to them ... Thus they arrived at a clear and correct understanding concerning God, and were set free from every attachment to the world and the flesh.
My emphasis again: this is in the flesh, in this life.

+++

This is the highest calling: if man is spirit alone, then man is only half what he can potentially be (and not half as good as an angel, who is a creature of spirit entirely), for man is the union of spirit and matter, but now we are in opposition in ourselves, but the aim is to overcome that opposition and enter into the union, to sanctify this life in His name.

Whither mountains will be moved I know not, but the world will be healed, and made whole, and then maybe the world will live for ever and ever ...

God bless

Thomas
(Most citations are taken from St Maximus the Confessor, Difficulty 10)
 
radar, in short, the things I believe, I have proof for. I ask not that you forsake what you have come to accept, and/or embrace the things in which *I* believe.

It comes down to a matter of what you Christians call FAITH. Were I to reject the things I suggest and present, I would be what you call, without Faith ... and would instantly become the proverbial `doubting Thomas.'

Doubt, or uncertainty [Sanskrit Vichikichchha] is among the first three fetters which must be cast off, or overcome by the aspiring disciple, the other two being Sakkayaditthi -- the delusion of self, and Silabbataparamasa -- superstition. Work to remove these chinks from your spiritual armor, and I make you this assurance:

YOU TOO, shall walk ~ on Water!

Thus, rather than embrace apostasy or shirk my foreordained Dharma, I prefer to embrace THAT Dharma ... and accept whatever consequences may result. Thus do I remain true to God, to Self [in the Spiritual sense] and to all of my fellow Brethren, whether or not the latter are upon the Occult Path.

Namaskara
 
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