Fourth Thesis

[Aupmanyav]

Ah, yes, aupmanyav*. We just do not have any copies from that long ago. I personally believe they (and the Gathas) are that old. But empirical proof, we have none.

Gathas (underline mine) - meaning 'epics'. It is the same word in Sanskrit and other Indian languages even today. Another word which has remained the same over millenia is 'vera or beda' (a compound) that Ahur Mazda asked Yima, the king of men, to prepare, so that two of each species could be saved from a deluge by ice which was imminent.

I think astronomical references and description of stellar positions should be taken as empirical proof. Vedas clearly mention that at one time the Aryan year began when sun rose in the asterism of Orion on the day of vernal equinox. (4,000 BC). At other times in the asterism of Pleiades (2,000 BC). Presently it is Arietis and waits for a change to Pisces. The earliest mention is of Castor and Pollux (earlier than 4,000 BC).

* You can shorten it to Aup. as many people do.

 

[juantoo3]

bump

 

[RJM]

What about the original sin which makes us sinners in the 21st Century?

I believe the concept of original sin comes from the fact that as natural creatures we are forced to take the life of other natural creatures in order to sustain our own -- even by breathing and drinking water we have to kill tiny living creatures. It is why the Jain religion is symbolised by wearing a facemask and carrying a broom to sweep ahead of one's feet, to avoid stepping on anything that lives.

I see the Adam and Eve story as the 'descent' of pure spirit into the dimension of nature (time and space) receiving 'coats of skin' and becoming natural creatures bound by material bodies that age and die. It is the dimension of knowledge of good and evil -- the zebra dies or the lion starves. Every natural creature must take life to sustain its own. That is the concept of original sin.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why did God give us incisors and made appendix non-functional?

 

[juantoo3]

Why did God give us incisors and made appendix non-functional?

Predatory animals have incisors...I am thinking the question you meant to ask is why human incisors became smaller?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Predatory animals have incisors...I am thinking the question you meant to ask is why human incisors became smaller?

We do not need larger incisors sticking out of our mouth since we learnt the use of fire.

 

[juantoo3]

I believe the concept of original sin comes from the fact that as natural creatures we are forced to take the life of other natural creatures in order to sustain our own -- even by breathing and drinking water we have to kill tiny living creatures. It is why the Jain religion is symbolised by wearing a facemask and carrying a broom to sweep ahead of one's feet, to avoid stepping on anything that lives.

I see the Adam and Eve story as the 'descent' of pure spirit into the dimension of nature (time and space) receiving 'coats of skin' and becoming natural creatures bound by material bodies that age and die. It is the dimension of knowledge of good and evil -- the zebra dies or the lion starves. Every natural creature must take life to sustain its own. That is the concept of original sin.

I can see that in a philosophical manner, yet perhaps this view is a bit romantic for reality?

So much hinges on what is "real" and what is allegory and metaphor. Were the 8th day creation of ha-Adam (man of red clay) and Eve separate and distinct from the rest of creation, including the 6th day creation of Adam? Genetics would seem to indicate that is not the case, that dogmatically that would be an incorrect assessment of the situation, that religious literalism divorces itself from the reality on the ground. It seems, not having the insight of further investigation, we collectively have drawn incorrect conclusions. Not that the text is inaccurate, but that we have for so long misunderstood.

 

[juantoo3]

We do not need larger incisors sticking out of our mouth since we learnt the use of fire.

Evidence, please?

If this is the case, you should be able to connect when archaic humans used fire and demonstrate the dentition of those same archaic humans. If the evidence exists you should be able to connect the dots for us here. Otherwise this is speculation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Evidence, please?
If this is the case, you should be able to connect when archaic humans used fire and demonstrate the dentition of those same archaic humans. If the evidence exists you should be able to connect the dots for us here.

"Claims for the earliest definitive evidence of control of fire by a member of Homo range from 1.7 to 2.0 million years ago (Mya). Evidence for the "microscopic traces of wood ash" as controlled use of fire by Homo erectus, beginning roughly 1 million years ago, has wide scholarly support."

Control of fire by early humans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[juantoo3]

"Claims for the earliest definitive evidence of control of fire by a member of Homo range from 1.7 to 2.0 million years ago (Mya). Evidence for the "microscopic traces of wood ash" as controlled use of fire by Homo erectus, beginning roughly 1 million years ago, has wide scholarly support."

Control of fire by early humans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

OK...and evidence for shrinking incisors? You are the one making the association between them.

 

[juantoo3]

Compared to modern humans, many hominins had toothier mouths. The “Nutcracker,” (aka Paranthropus boisei), a hominin that lived 2.3 million years ago, had the largest molars and thickest enamel of any hominin. Homo erectus, which lived all over the world 1.5 million years ago, had larger canines than modern humans. But both still followed the evolutionary trend of generally decreasing tooth size: The size of our jaw and teeth have slowly been shrinking over millions of years. Modern humans normally end up with 32 teeth by the time they’re fully adult, including four wisdom teeth that often have to be removed because there just isn’t room for them.

How Ancient Teeth Reveal the Roots of Humankind

From diet to evolution, prehistoric chompers tell archaeologists a surprising amount about our ancestors

www.smithsonianmag.com

This article calls your association between shrinking incisors and taming of fire as bunk, Erectus' incisors were already shrinking.

So prove otherwise and back up your claim that incisors shrank with the taming of fire, unless your claim is unfounded "faith."

 

[Aupmanyav]

This article calls your association between shrinking incisors and taming of fire as bunk, Erectus' incisors were already shrinking.

To prove is for scientists. I can only quote reports. Yeah, As per evidence, Erectus was perhaps using fire for food. But they say the use of fire for food may be even older.
Perhaps the incisors have not changed, but the shape of jaw has changed a lot. Ancients had better teeth.

Have teeth changed significantly as humans have evolved through the centuries?

Answer (1 of 33): Human teeth have changed quite a lot over the many thousands of years people have been around. Much of this change is due to diet rather than genetics. This picture compares a paleolithic jaw (left) to a modern one (right). [1] The paleolithic teeth meet right up and are well a...

www.quora.com

Apes and chimps have longer incisors.

 

[juantoo3]

"they say"

There's a lot of that going around...

Sounds precisely like faith to me.

I suppose that makes you irrational, too.

Welcome to the club.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"they say"
Sounds precisely like faith to me.

It is a matter of saying how strong the evidence is. For Erectus perhaps 80%. For Afarensis, less than that. Sigma 4, Sigma 5, Sigma 6.

 

[juantoo3]

It is a matter of saying how strong the evidence is. For Erectus perhaps 80%. For Afarensis, less than that. Sigma 4, Sigma 5, Sigma 6.

Indeed.

Doesn't prove your claim, however. It stands there is no causal association between harnessing fire and the shrinkage of the human incisor.

 

[moralorel]

Why did God give us incisors and made appendix non-functional?

Actually the belief that the appendix is non-functional is a myth. We can live without it, but it definitely has purpose.

1. It is one of the first organs to react to infection. It has lymphoid cells that help produce T cells.

2. It stores good gut microbes to help with digestion. So if an infection or medication wipes out all of your good microbes in your digestive system, the appendix releases some of its stored microbes to compensate.

3. Your chances of having intestinal infections throughout your life are 18%. If you have your appendix removed, your chances increase to 45%! That's due to the appendix not being there to help fight infections.

4. H. F. Smith of the University of Arizona has the following to say about the matter: "A recently improved understanding of gut immunity has merged with current thinking in biological and medical science, pointing to an apparent function of the mammalian cecal appendix as a safe-house for symbiotic gut microbes, preserving the flora during times of gastrointestinal infection in societies without modern medicine...analyses indicate that the appendix has evolved independently at least twice (at least once in diprotodont marsupials and at least once in Euarchontoglires), shows a highly significant (P < 0.0001) phylogenetic signal in its distribution, and has been maintained in mammalian evolution for 80 million years or longer."

This doesn't mean that the appendix isn't a part of evolution. It just means that the appendix is NOT a leftover effect of evolution. It could also be a functional part of evolution.