Time, Time Time, see what's become of me!

radarmark

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This is the third issue (besides my apologia and the metaphysical, un-provable and un-falsifiable nature of some schools of physics) that is an idee fixe for me.

Plato and Einstein famously denied the existence of time (yes, I will discuss that at some point). So do many scientists (especially physicists). Why? Like "non-locality" and "multi-verses" it is an easy way to superimpose a metaphysic of "hard determinism".

However, there are a growing number of them (Whitehead, Prigogine, Wolfram, and Smolin did/do lead the way) returning to a "common-sense" approach to time.

Since the advent of relativity and quantum though, that "common-sense" is not so common. Relativity presupposes a total lack of simultaneity (what looks simultaneous to you just is not--it depends on the relative velocities and distances involved). Quantum makes time "fuzzy" (it is not a nice smooth continuum).

However, a notion of time involves more than physics (one just should not contradict physics unless one has a better physics--something well beyond me!). The Unreality of Time (McTaggart, Mind, New Series No.68, Oct. 1908) made time a contentious issue in philosophy, which it remains to this day (see http://dro.dur.ac.uk/6089/1/6089.pdf or http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9309051.pdf ; the first is philosophical, the second deal with physics).

So like “Apologia” this thread is meant to be a guided discussion and a presentation of my beliefs.
 
I look forward to this....

Let us discuss the little notations in the upper left hand corner of each post....

The date and time....that 'don't' exist.

You make a statement, I create a response. My response is AFTER yours as I could not have made a response until you made the statement and while the digits, the nomenclature, may be a man made construct the fact that one occurred AFTER the other and your statement was BEFORE my response and we have place this on a linear chart so we can categorize our observances is not.

And while yes...this may be only from our perspective in 3D...our perspective from 3D is relevant, as we are in 3D.

I look forward to grokking a new understanding.
 
This one I will spend time to understand. I have never understood what time would be and it has been frustrating. I'm also looking forward to grokking.
 
Oh, Radarmark ... now you've dunnit!

Paul Ricoeur, Time and Narrative. Volume I

Augustine, The Confessions, Book XI.

I think these lines will cross with our other discussion.

You know, every time you post, my reading list gets a little longer, and I keep running out of that resource that apparently doesn't exist. Imagine my frustration at having issues with something that isn't even there! And therein lies the human condition...:)
 
Time
In Greek Philosophy: In pre-Socratic Philosophy there were two schools of thought about time and change and becoming and all the messiness we find ourselves discussing, the Ephesian school and the Eleatic school. And they disagreed about nearly everything. Heraclitus (the first Ephesian) famously wrote: “[n]othing endures but change”, “[n]o man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man”, and “[t]ime is a game played beautifully by children”.
Obviously, his beliefs pretty much reflect my thesis (time as ontologically basic). On the other hand the Eleatic philosopher Parmenides over twenty five centuries ago believed that being (what exists) is continuous and that nothing can come into or go out of being because it would contradict a basic postulate – being exists, non-being does not exist – which can be deduced from what we perceive: “there are signs aplenty that, being, it is ungenerated and indestructible, whole, of one kind and unwavering, and complete. Nor was it ever, nor will it be since now it is, altogether, one continuous”. The Eleatic argument that what exists should be continuous is strikingly simple and powerful (we can be truly proud of our smart ancestors!) – if being were not continuous, it could be separated either by being or non-being, which is impossible since being cannot separate being (as, for example, water does not separate water), whereas non-being does not exist. Stated a bit differently, the Eleatics had been saying something unbelievably profound – what is common in the uncountable variety of objects in the world is their existence; nothing can separate one area of the existing world from another area and in this sense being and space and time is indeed continuous, with being the ontological basis.
So really, the time issue is merely an extension of the becoming/being issue. Plato was more highly influenced by the Eleatics. In Timeaus this is made manifest in four givens: (1) time co-exists with the Cosmos (“came into being simultaneously with”), (2) time is infinite but continuous and infinitely divisible, (3) time is a feature of the visible order of things (“time is the moving image of nature”) and, as such, pre-determines (“a priori”) everything to be in motion, and (4) time has an associated direction (time is anisoropic). The most striking feature of Plato's account is the different status that Space and Time have within his system. Space is, in some sense, Absolute, i.e., it subsists in its own right. Time, on the other hand, exists only insofar as the visible order of motion does.
Aristotle defines time as “a number of change in respect of the before and after” (“arithmos kineseos kata to proteron kai husteron,” 219b1). Unlike Plato, while time is associated with motion, it is not change, but a number associated with it. Time is not movement, but that by which movement can be numerically estimated.


In Eastern Philosophy: Both Mahavira (the Jain Buddha figure) and Gautama Buddha taught the real ontological truth of time ("Time is the substance I am made of’). Similarly the Rishis and the Sanatana Dharma since then has (to a great extent) embraced the reality of time (see The Concept of Time in Ancient India by Rao). Even Zen has a practical definition of time “In this moment there is nothing that comes to be. In this moment there is nothing that ceases to be” per the sixth patriarch and “Time is certainly a very complex topic in physics, but there is no real doubt among physicists that time does really, truly exist ... they're just divided a bit on what causes this existence” per Master Seung Sahn. While the inner structure of time in the Eastern since is very different from us in the West (cyclic and eternal), it is (1) an ontological fact (“experience assumes time”) and (2) a number associated with a particular being.

Kind of Transition (next section will be on medieval time up to Einstein): St Augustine once commented "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know: if I wish to explain it to one that asketh, I know not." It is from this very pragmatic view that Galilean and Newtonian time developed.
From wikipedia (in summary of the joys laying ahead):
Saint Augustine proposed that the present is a knife edge between the past and the future and could not contain any extended period of time. This seems evident because, if the present is extended, it must have separate parts – but these must be simultaneous if they are truly part of the present. According to early philosophers, time cannot be both past and simultaneously present, so it is not extended. Contrary to Saint Augustine, some philosophers propose that conscious experience is extended in time. For instance, William James said that time is "the short duration of which we are immediately and incessantly sensible".[citation needed] Augustine proposed that God is outside of time and present for all times, in eternity. Other early philosophers who were presentists include the Buddhists (in the tradition of Indian Buddhism). A leading scholar from the modern era on Buddhist philosophy is Fyodor Shcherbatskoy, who has written extensively on Buddhist presentism: "Everything past is unreal, everything future is unreal, everything imagined, absent, mental... is unreal... Ultimately real is only the present moment of physical efficiency [i.e., causation]."[1]
 
Augustine to Leibnitz: St Augustine presents the culmination of Greek Philosophy’s analysis of time. In Book Eleven of the Confessions, Augustine wrestles with the problem of time and has what amounts to a dialog with his God, saying “For thou madest that very tine itself and periods could not pass by before thou madest the whole temporal procession. But if there was no time before heaven and hearth, how, then, can it be asked, “What wast thou doing then?” For there was no “then” when there was not time.” He went on to say “ “There was no time, therefore, when thou hadst not made anything, because thou hadst made time itself.” Unlike the earlier philosophers (and the Neo-Platonist Plotinus), Augustine was not looking at time en vacuo but rather time within a First Philosophy, in his case the existence of g!d.

As far as his independent analysis of time it is my impression (and that of Bertrand Russell and several other real philosophers) Augustine presents a relational picture of time. Time is that which determines the relationships between things, much like location (think of inside and outside and above and below). Time is not like a fluid in which all things float or like a box in which all things are contained. It is a field of all the relations of "before" and "after" of events. Time is a relation of temporal things. It came into being with temporal things. One cannot speak of it except as elapsing between them.

Augustine considers the possibility that time can be identified with movement, particularly with the movements of the stars or the sun. He rejects this idea for the reason that it is not logically impossible for the sun to change its speed. So time cannot be defined as movement to measure duration. Rather, we rely on our awareness of duration to estimate duration of motion or rest. Even if all external motion on the part of objects in our surroundings were to cease, we would still be aware of the duration of the state of rest that followed.

Augustine is very cautious to avoid inferring from this that the past and future are somehow real; however he admits we can and do speak of the past and the future as being present to the mind in memory and expectation.So, even though it seems the passing of time leaves no room for the reality of duration, it may exist "in the mind". In its awareness of passing time, the mind is "stretched out" (distentio ) between an expectation of what is to come and a memory of what has passed. He says "Time it seems to me is nothing else than extension, though I do not know extension of what: probably of the mind itself".

But notice, it is not subjective illusion (as Plato and Plotinus earlier, and later Kant suggested). Whereas Plato and Plotinus saw a world beyond, “the world of forms”, as a timeless, eternal, and unchanging reality, St Augustine substituted g!d (I have changed my capitalization scheme after re-reading some linear versions of Confessions, if deus sufficed for the real founding father --philosophically at least -- of the Church -- which he did capitalize) in his four-fold characterization of aion, “the Eternal” per Plato as:

1) It has no beginning or end, no past or future
2) It is, and is in the present,
3) It is unchanging
4) It has life.

So, in my opinion, St Augustine stands firmly astride the great “subjective/objective” and “real/illusion” and “presentism/eternalism” rifts in the philosophy of time. In terms of the physics, time is accepted as real and relational. In terms of the metaphysics, the world of the physics exists as some extension of an eternal beyond. Admittedly, I am reading him in a very personal manner.

Similarly Johannes Philoponus, Abu Al Kindis, Saadia (Goan) ben Yousef, Ibn al-Haytham, and al-Ghazali – all early Abrahamic philosophers argued vehemently against the eternalism and the eternity of the universe of the Platonic/Plotinus school. They used his two logical arguments against an infinite past, the first being the "argument from the impossibility of the existence of an actual infinite", which states:

"An actual infinite cannot exist."
"An infinite temporal regress of events is an actual infinite."
"∴ An infinite temporal regress of events cannot exist."

The second argument, the "argument from the impossibility of completing an actual infinite by successive addition", states:

"An actual infinite cannot be completed by successive addition."
"The temporal series of past events has been completed by successive addition."
"∴ The temporal series of past events cannot be an actual infinite."

Both arguments were adopted by later Christian philosophers and theologians, and the second argument in particular became more famous after it was adopted by Immanuel Kant in his thesis of the first antinomy concerning time; which he adopted not as a comment about the physics (the Universe as it physically exists), but as a general comment “questions as to the limits of time and space are meaningless”.

Descartes, Spinoza, Hume and Kant added notable metaphysical and philosophical tricks about time. However, they did not really get past the basic Heraclitus/Plato and Augustine/Plotinus conflicts of “subjective/objective” and “real/illusion” and “presentism/eternalism”. Which, as you should have gathered, I believe the former in each dyad answered adequately, perhaps perfectly for their time.

It was at about this point that Newton and Leibnitz came along to invent the Calculus and Natural Philosophy—physics as a separate discipline. Newton enshrined absolute time and space as the very flesh and bones of the Universe (remember my previous definition). But, being a good and believing deist (often called “the Last Alchemist”), Newton himself never did state that the physical Universe was “all there is” (an interpretation of the Continental Natural Philosophers and most of his English followers). This is really, really hard to prove, but Newton probably did not believe in a Newtonian Universe (one existing only in space and time), but held a view similar to St Augustine’s—that g!d exists beyond these limitations and this universe.

One reason I feel so strongly about this is that the “Newton-Leibnitz” debate (actually argued by correspondence by Samuel Clarke) entirely rests on Newton’s Principia, and no other source. The debate, once published by Clarke, Desmaieaux, and Kohler (in English, French and German) became de facto the gospel of the “Hermit of Cambridge”. Leibnitz’ little remembered comments on time fall directly in line with Heraclitus and Augustine—time is a relational reality.

Next post will detail the Newtonian Universe and it's impact on the development of our notions of time from the time of Newton to Einstein.
 
Well this was way over my head, I'll sit back a bit and let someone start a discussion about it, might be easier to follow one aspect from different points of view. Good work though!
 
Thanks, the bottom line at this point is that Heraclitus (600BCE) and Augustine (300CE) and Leibnitz (1700CE) all had a concept of time that was relational (it exists only as a measure inbetween things time is in the universe). Newton and all the rest believed that time was some kind of absolute thing that pre-existed before the universe (the universe is in time). Furthermore, they beleived in the existence of eternity (but not in the universe) whereas their opponents believed time as illusion or merely the present. I did not mean to make this hard.

Here is my position in a nutshell... time is a realation between events and does not exist as a separate, foundational thing. But this relationship (time) is as real as the sun coming up this morning, it is not illusion. Time is a necessary but emergent property of the universe (it keeps everything from happening at once but it exists only as long as something from that everything exists).
 
Oh! I'll reread it now with that context in mind. I know you don't make it hard on purpose, it's just complicated stuff, I don't expect to understand everything in this short life.

I'll be interested in finding out more about how time is or isn't an illusion, and in what way.
 
Here is my position in a nutshell... time is a realation between events and does not exist as a separate, foundational thing. But this relationship (time) is as real as the sun coming up this morning, it is not illusion. Time is a necessary but emergent property of the universe (it keeps everything from happening at once but it exists only as long as something from that everything exists).
I'll buy that.

I'll have to go back to my books. Ricoeur talks of Augustine (Confessions XI?) and discusses 'time' in terms of narrative and especially song, which I find a profound idea ... especially in song, in which not only the sounds but the silences speak ... there's something deep in that which I need to contemplate at my leisure ... the relation of math to music, the music of the spheres, etc.

In short, I think I'm saying 'objective' or 'clock time' is construct (albeit true), which gets all paradoxical at speeds approaching light, etc., Subjective time is part of the fabric of which we are constructed?
 
I'll buy that.

I'll have to go back to my books. Ricoeur talks of Augustine (Confessions XI?) and discusses 'time' in terms of narrative and especially song, which I find a profound idea ... especially in song, in which not only the sounds but the silences speak ... there's something deep in that which I need to contemplate at my leisure ... the relation of math to music, the music of the spheres, etc.

It is all of Book XI (you get an A). Do a google scholar search on it and look for anything by O'Meara, Callahan and Murphy. If you find it, get S Knuuttila's chapter in The Cambridge Companion to Augustine.

In short, I think I'm saying 'objective' or 'clock time' is construct (albeit true), which gets all paradoxical at speeds approaching light, etc., Subjective time is part of the fabric of which we are constructed?

That is the key. See Mach, McTaggart, Einstein, Goedel, and Reichenbach (the five evil elves who created the modern verion of "time as an illusion") refused to acknowldege the subjective form (probably because they were all so influenced by positivism).

Since their time (The last three died in the early 50s) the science of time has changed. The "quantum foam" of Wheeler includes time (since it is the fourth dimension). Various multi-verse theories allow the expansion of the universe to allow time flow. M theory expands string theory into this same realm (multi-verses). One of the latest theories of gravity (entropic) relates relativity as a consequence of time.

More to the point, if you look at all the many "spacetime cone diagrams" it is consistent that the time carried along the line (representing a thing in spacetime) ios unique and invarient. The issue comes when you try to tie them all together into a single time (which I believe does not exist within the universe). Similarly, at the quantum level, a thing passes in and out of spacetime as it propigates (not saying this is true, merely possible) which creates the divisions between past, present and future.

Thanks, you are always a help. I can not get off the writing binge and focus on the broader context on this thread (ACOT, do not expect any more graduate level paragraphs).
 
Radarmark post 8 said:
This seems evident because, if the present is extended, it must have separate parts – but these must be simultaneous if they are truly part of the present. According to early philosophers, time cannot be both past and simultaneously present, so it is not extended.
This sparked my imagination a little. The Physics of very small things is still unclear and debated. I understand that very tiny items are considered to have probabilities of existence based upon their energy. Much energy appears to be quantized, yet matter appears to have the properties of waves. This is the opposite of how we perceive energy and matter at our end of the microscope. Things are not always what they seem.

In calculations and to account for quantum behaviors matter is considered to have a probable location, however time is considered to be a smooth independent variable or domain that is differentiable at every point. (It is considered smooth and linear with no overlaps or change of direction.) What if very small amounts of the present do overlap with the past and future? Then we'd have a universe that was part Eleatic and part Ephesian. --> Perhaps we already do considering the probability distribution of matter, because this seems like almost the same thing to me.
 
This sparked my imagination a little. The Physics of very small things is still unclear and debated. I understand that very tiny items are considered to have probabilities of existence based upon their energy. Much energy appears to be quantized, yet matter appears to have the properties of waves. This is the opposite of how we perceive energy and matter at our end of the microscope. Things are not always what they seem.

Well, close. Actually the action (energy times time or momentum times length) is the key... it means that for a very short period of time there can be enormous and unbalanced increases or decreases in enrgy (to the point where some hypothecize that at the shortest period of time about 5.4 × 10−44 s, things can disappear or reappear). It also means that at very short distances (about 1.6 × 10−44) the momentum (mass times velocity) can blink out of or come into existence (mass disappears or is created from nothing or velocity goes from the speed of light to negative the speed of light). This is one of the reasons Einstein never accepted quantum mechanicss (much like Mach never accepted the existence of atoms). And it is why Feynmann famously said "What I am going to tell you about is what we teach our physics students in the third or fourth year of graduate school... It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don't understand it. You see my physics students don't understand it... That is because I don't understand it. Nobody does.”


In calculations and to account for quantum behaviors matter is considered to have a probable location, however time is considered to be a smooth independent variable or domain that is differentiable at every point. (It is considered smooth and linear with no overlaps or change of direction.) What if very small amounts of the present do overlap with the past and future? Then we'd have a universe that was part Eleatic and part Ephesian. --> Perhaps we already do considering the probability distribution of matter, because this seems like almost the same thing to me.

The continuity problem (the quantization of space and time) is, in the laboratory, to the farthest extent of our scientific knowledge, a given. What does that mean? There may be a possible alternative, but not only does physics not know, it does not know how to formulate the question in a physical sense. It all becomes a matter of metaphysics.

For instance g!d may have an infinate number of really small angels that makes things so that physicists are fooled.

Time, like matter, like energy, like velocity, like length is not really continuous but granular, noncommutative, and probabilistic. But that granularity is far, far below out level of "sense experience" and becomes a matter of "intllectual experience".

Time and space are not things below the surface of the Universe (a priori to the Universe). They are part of the Universe, a relational part.

In the future, ask me about Whitehead's notion of time, which is very, very close to the "what if very small amounts of the present do overlap with the past and future" question you asked. For now see Klose or Lango (the first is a little physics oriented, the second more philosophical).

Very sharp of you. The basic notion is the immediate past gives birth to a novel entity in the present which is aimed at a particular goal in the future. Do not quote me on that, it is merely a simplistic version.
 
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