Black or White? sg's etymological rambling

seattlegal

seattlegal

Mercuræn Buddhist
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Proto Indo-European extended root: *bhleg-

Meaning: to shine or burn

Old English roots:

blaec: black (from the char of the burn)

blac: white, blanche (from the shine or flash of the burn)


My question: Do you focus mainly on the flash, the char, or the actual burning process, and why?
 
Here's the entry from etymonline.com


black (adj.) Old English blæc "dark," from Proto-Germanic *blakaz "burned" (cf. Old Norse blakkr "dark," Old High German blah "black," Swedish bläck "ink," Dutch blaken "to burn"), from PIE *bhleg- "to burn, gleam, shine, flash" (cf. Greek phlegein "to burn, scorch," Latin flagrare "to blaze, glow, burn"), from root *bhel- (1) "to shine, flash, burn;" see bleach (v.).

The same root produced Old English blac "bright, shining, glittering, pale;" the connecting notions being, perhaps, "fire" (bright) and "burned" (dark). The usual Old English word for "black" was sweart (see swart). According to OED: "In ME. it is often doubtful whether blac, blak, blake, means 'black, dark,' or 'pale, colourless, wan, livid.' " Used of dark-skinned people in Old English.​
I just went through several Proto Indo-European dictionaries investigating this. The colors black, white, and blue (and even pale green) are associated with this root, depending on the perspective taken by the language that developed from the old Proto Indo-European.
 
how did they get from black to white (as in sound?)

in spanish it would be negro and blanco if I recall...

shwartz weib german

preto branco portugues

nigrum album latin

noir blanc french
 
wil said:
how did they get from black to white (as in sound?)
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They developed from different root words.

in spanish it would be negro and blanco if I recall...

shwartz weib german

preto branco portugues

nigrum album latin

noir blanc french
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Blanco and blanc are also from the PIE extended root *bhleg-

These languages went for the flash instead of the char.
 
The word "White" came from a different PIE root

white (n.) Old English hwit, from Proto-Germanic *khwitaz (cf. Old Saxon and Old Frisian hwit, Old Norse hvitr, Dutch wit, Old High German hwiz, German weiß, Gothic hveits), from PIE *kwintos/*kwindos "bright" (cf. Sanskrit svetah "white;" Old Church Slavonic sviteti "to shine," svetu "light;" Lithuanian sviesti "to shine," svaityti "to brighten").​
I'm just intrigued with how "to burn, shine" would produce a set of opposites. :)
 
wil said:
we are all one?

are you getting at the 'root' 'split' in dualism?
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We are complex beings. Each of us has a place of oneness with our opposite that cannot be split. If you as an individual tried to merge with that oneness you would only be able to merge with half of it because you are half of it. It doesnt work any other way. someone trying to claim they are the oneness , and individually are male and female is grossly mistaken because you cannot individually merge with the whole oness as an individual. It simply doesnt work that way. Look at shakiti and shiva. They have bisexual anatomy but shiva is the male and shakiti the female.
 
wil said:
we are all one?

are you getting at the 'root' 'split' in dualism?
Click to expand...
Yep. I was speculating that it just came from naming the upper limit and lower limit of a bell curve probability distribution different things (most light reflected back = white, least light reflected back = black,) but it can also come from one cause (burning) having two effects (flash {white} and char {black.})
 
The process of fire i.e. burning is a rather esoteric and symbolic matter. For example; we know that burning is a chemical process but the flame just appears and then disappears, and that is rather intriguing (if you are not scientifically minded). As for the words (black/white) I am not sure as I am not a linguist but interestingly words and their sources are equally mysterious. There is a spiritual concept of a cosmic Fire (that has little to do with actual fire) You can find references of burning in Agni Yoga, the Bible and other sources....
 
Hermes said:
The process of fire i.e. burning is a rather esoteric and symbolic matter. For example; we know that burning is a chemical process but the flame just appears and then disappears, and that is rather intriguing (if you are not scientifically minded). As for the words (black/white) I am not sure as I am not a linguist but interestingly words and their sources are equally mysterious. There is a spiritual concept of a cosmic Fire (that has little to do with actual fire) You can find references of burning in Agni Yoga, the Bible and other sources....
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Ever see the movie the 5th element? When scripture talks about fire it is referring to the holy spirit. It is clear in passages that is what it means. There is no room for misinterpretation.
 
seattlegal said:
Proto Indo-European extended root: *bhleg- Meaning: to shine or burn
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In Sanskrit, it is 'Bharga', 'Bhrajati' (Shine), as in the second of the famous three-line Gayatri mantra: "Bhargah Devasya Dhimahi - Brilliance, Of the God, May We Attain - 'May we obtain the brillance of the God'. 'Bhrigu' is the name of one of our most famous sages. His supposed descendants are known as 'Bhargavas', a brahmin caste. Bhrigu was one whom the sages sent to the three Gods (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva) to test who is the greatest. Bhrigu tested them with a kick on the chest. Brahma and Shiva got angry and wanted to destroy Bhrigu when the other sages interceded. Vishnu messaged his foot and asked if he was hurt. Vishnu was pronounced as the greatest. Of course, the story belongs to the Vishnu worshipers.
 
Aupmanyav said:
In Sanskrit, it is 'Bharga', 'Bhrajati' (Shine), as in the second of the famous three-line Gayatri mantra: "Bhargah Devasya Dhimahi - Brilliance, Of the God, May We Attain - 'May we obtain the brillance of the God'. 'Bhrigu' is the name of one of our most famous sages. His supposed descendants are known as 'Bhargavas', a brahmin caste. Bhrigu was one whom the sages sent to the three Gods (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva) to test who is the greatest. Bhrigu tested them with a kick on the chest. Brahma and Shiva got angry and wanted to destroy Bhrigu when the other sages interceded. Vishnu messaged his foot and asked if he was hurt. Vishnu was pronounced as the greatest. Of course, the story belongs to the Vishnu worshipers.
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Interesting! Thanks Aup. I'm glad you are here! :)
 
Gayatri Mantra:

"Tat Savituh Vareniyam, Bhargo Devasya Dhī Mahi, Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayāt" Rigveda (3.62.10)

Word meanings: That stimulator desirable, radiance deity may we attain (intellect, meditation, mind, thoughts) ours can (make, encourage, set in motion, urge, impel forward)

Translation by Dr. Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan*: "We meditate on the adorable glory of the radiant deity; may he inspire our intelligence."

* Dr. Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan, was an Indian philosopher and statesman who was the first Vice President of India (1952–1962) and the second President of India (1962 to 1967). He was Spalding Professor of Eastern Religion and Ethics at Oxford University (1936–1952). Honors: British Knight Bachelor in 1931, Commonwealth Order of Merit 1963, Bharat Ratna, the highest civilian award in India, in 1954. His birthday is celebrated in India as Teachers' Day on 5 September.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Gayatri Mantra:

"Tat Savituh Vareniyam, Bhargo Devasya Dhī Mahi, Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayāt" Rigveda (3.62.10)

Word meanings: That stimulator desirable, radiance deity may we attain (intellect, meditation, mind, thoughts) ours can (make, encourage, set in motion, urge, impel forward)

Translation by Dr. Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan*: "We meditate on the adorable glory of the radiant deity; may he inspire our intelligence."

* Dr. Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan, was an Indian philosopher and statesman who was the first Vice President of India (1952–1962) and the second President of India (1962 to 1967). He was Spalding Professor of Eastern Religion and Ethics at Oxford University (1936–1952). Honors: British Knight Bachelor in 1931, Commonwealth Order of Merit 1963, Bharat Ratna, the highest civilian award in India, in 1954. His birthday is celebrated in India as Teachers' Day on 5 September.
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In Buddhism, mind is often likened to fire. Then there's also the luminous mind citta, as well.
 

Hi, seattlegal.
I'm Jane.

[post=278856]. . . My question: Do you focus mainly on the flash, the char, or the actual burning process, and why?[/post]​

Here's a thought . . .

When there is division,
there is something which is not divided.
--Zhuangzi, Chapter 2.​

Way back in our hunter-gatherer animistic prehistory, "fire" was not treated as a material thing. But as a "living entity." (A magical being.)
Fire was a great help to a small band of people in a hostile environment. For their warmth, for cooking, for light, for protection against predatory animals. Such a great help that I'm sure they saw "fire" as a divinity.
It is supremely important to keep the fire burning. To keep it "alive." (A ritualistic necessity. Anticipating a polytheistic style of piety and worship.)

Fire was treated more practically during polytheistic times. Just another tool, like the wheel or a plow. But, still, temples and shrines often made a fetish out of "keeping a flame burning" inside, day and night.

Each spoken word, in earlier times, tended to refer not to a thing nor an event, so much as to an undifferentiated "process." Here the "process of burning."

This changed during the Axial Age (Aristotle et al). A former divinity is now treated as a physical product.
Fire is suddenly neither divine nor a ritual fetish.
Fire derives from some cause . . . a "flash." (Radiant heat.)
Fire leaves some evidentiary traces of itself, as an effect . . . a "char." (Scorch patterns and half-consumed objects and smoke.)

This division of the "process of burning" into cause and effect is the result of proto-scientific abstract thinking.
Each written word becomes a label, no longer for a process but for some definable physical product. Some definitive cause, or some definitive effect.

A fire's former magic and fetishistic allure is now rationalized.

I think, seattlegal, this is your "why" . . .
A rational world's linguistic need to mechanistically divide things into component facets.
(And maybe, also, a consumer world's need to see things in terms of marketable products.)


Jane.

{This actually is not the end of the story . . .
In the contemporary world of "chaos theory" and "nonlinear systems" the focus moves away from solid products, away from linear cause-effect, and back toward something like "process." But not quite in the primitive or ancient (living entity) sense.
The real problem is, is that we haven't developed a language yet for these kinds of complicated, shadowy phenomena . . .
i.e. we haven't come up with the right word for nonlinear thing-events like this "process of burning."}

 
seattlegal said:
Proto Indo-European extended root: *bhleg-

Meaning: to shine or burn

Old English roots:

blaec: black (from the char of the burn)

blac: white, blanche (from the shine or flash of the burn)


My question: Do you focus mainly on the flash, the char, or the actual burning process, and why?
Click to expand...

Seems like most folks around here just want to know the difference between a good pinot noir and a pinot blanc. :D
 
Seattlegal said:
My question: Do you focus mainly on the flash, the char, or the actual burning process, and why?
Click to expand...
I like sitting at a fire and will stare at the shape of individual tongues of flame, and I like the smell of the smoke sometimes. A healthy fire leaves behind hot coals that give off a nice heat. At night everything is black except the fire, but in the morning there are cold coals on the ground juxtaposed against bright daylight. I doubt that is where your contrast comes from but its an idea. Fire at night ---> coals vs. daylight in the morning.
 
Dream said:
I like sitting at a fire and will stare at the shape of individual tongues of flame, and I like the smell of the smoke sometimes. A healthy fire leaves behind hot coals that give off a nice heat. At night everything is black except the fire, but in the morning there are cold coals on the ground juxtaposed against bright daylight. I doubt that is where your contrast comes from but its an idea. Fire at night ---> coals vs. daylight in the morning.
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I like that. Thanks Dream. :)
 
Dream said:
Fire at night ---> coals vs. daylight in the morning.
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Fire, anytime is good. In the night for heat and security, in the day for food. Therefore, the Fire God. The first verse of the first hymn of the first book of RigVeda:

"I Laud Agni, the chosen Priest, God, minister of sacrifice; the chief priest, lavishest of wealth."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01001.htm

अग्निमीळे पुरोहितं यज्ञस्य देवं रत्वीजम | होतारं रत्नधातमम ||
(Agnimīle purohitam yajnasya devam ritvijam | hotāram ratnadhātamama ||)

l has a pronunciation which I cannot render in English.
 
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