Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
- Thread starter rstrats
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@rstrats after tracking this single minded query across several websites (and many years) I can only admire your persistence. I can see that no-one anywhere across many forums has been able to provide written evidence that the Messiah was using a common figure of speech for the time, except for the link with Jonah.
Although I am personally able to be quite satisfied that the expression is a Biblical 'cliche' similar to the common use of the number seven to mean a few, not perhaps exactly seven, as posited several times -- I doubt it will ever set your mind at rest.
I am left to wonder about why the exact wording of Matthew 12:40 is so important to you. But of course I don't really expect an answer?
Best wishes to you over this lockdown Easter 2020, and may you one day find the written evidence you seek ...
Although I am personally able to be quite satisfied that the expression is a Biblical 'cliche' similar to the common use of the number seven to mean a few, not perhaps exactly seven, as posited several times -- I doubt it will ever set your mind at rest.
I am left to wonder about why the exact wording of Matthew 12:40 is so important to you. But of course I don't really expect an answer?
Best wishes to you over this lockdown Easter 2020, and may you one day find the written evidence you seek ...
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Just to be clear, are you denying any connection to that site?
Trying to stay on topic...and identify the exactness of wording...
He is a member of that site, wil. And of several other Christian and religious sites too. There are a few others here who are also members of Religious Forums. I was a member for a while but a lot of the atheists were rude and superior and sneering; they were too easily able to make me angry so I didn't stay but I sometimes lurk, lol ...
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Yeah, I got that part, was wondering if there were word games afoot and being more than a member.
When a new person comes with a Bunch of new posts or long mansplaining posts I often cut a paragraph out and put it in a search engine and am amazed how many forums they've cut and pasted the same rant trying to find validation someplace.
The best thing about these forums is the opportunity to find and refine the errors in my thinking...
When a new person comes with a Bunch of new posts or long mansplaining posts I often cut a paragraph out and put it in a search engine and am amazed how many forums they've cut and pasted the same rant trying to find validation someplace.
The best thing about these forums is the opportunity to find and refine the errors in my thinking...
It crashes my browser.
I'm still running 32 bit with relatively limited memory..
Actually, it's not that I don't have access to a more powerful machine, it's
that I don't WANT to run it. Like all things though, I'm forced to change in the end.
..if death doesn't come first, that is
Who knows, lol?
https://www.religiousforums.com/members/rex.3/
But apart from sharing the avatar, it doesn't seem likely, imo.
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RJM Corbet,
re: " I can see that no-one anywhere across many forums has been able to provide written evidence that the Messiah was using a common figure of speech for the time..."
Yes, that has been the case so far.
re: "...except for the link with Jonah."
I don't see where the account regarding Jonah shows that he wasn't in the "great fish" for at least a portion of each one of three days and at least a portion of each one of three nights.
re: "I am left to wonder about why the exact wording of Matthew 12:40 is so important to you."
For the purpose of this topic it isn't. What is of interest is what examples are being used by anyone who believes the crucifixion took place on the sixth day of the week with a first day of the week resurrection, and who believes the "heart of the earth" refers to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a third night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period to say that is was common.
re: " I can see that no-one anywhere across many forums has been able to provide written evidence that the Messiah was using a common figure of speech for the time..."
Yes, that has been the case so far.
re: "...except for the link with Jonah."
I don't see where the account regarding Jonah shows that he wasn't in the "great fish" for at least a portion of each one of three days and at least a portion of each one of three nights.
re: "I am left to wonder about why the exact wording of Matthew 12:40 is so important to you."
For the purpose of this topic it isn't. What is of interest is what examples are being used by anyone who believes the crucifixion took place on the sixth day of the week with a first day of the week resurrection, and who believes the "heart of the earth" refers to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a third night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period to say that is was common.
wil,
re: Just to be clear, are you denying any connection to that site?"
Yes, with regard to being the owner. However, I do have posts there.
re: "Trying to stay on topic...and identify the exactness of wording..."
That's not the topic.
re: Just to be clear, are you denying any connection to that site?"
Yes, with regard to being the owner. However, I do have posts there.
re: "Trying to stay on topic...and identify the exactness of wording..."
That's not the topic.
@rstrats
From my previous (2018) post #179:
* In Mark 8:31 Jesus says "after three days”
Mark was the first gospel written
* In Matthew 12:40 it's written as "three days and three nights"
* In John 2.19 it's "three days"
* In Luke 13:32 and 24:46 it's written "on the third day", as it is too in Matthew 16:21; 17:23 and 20:19.
So in only one of several passages is the "three nights" added -- obviously as a reference to Jonah -- and as I am quite happy to take the consensus, it doesn't seem to trouble me much. There are other contradictory New Testament passages that have far more serious implications for a literal reading.
They had to break the legs of the crucified, because it was not allowed for the crucifixion to continue on the sabbath. That would be the Saturday, but starting at sundown on Friday -- which is the reason for assuming a sixth day crucifixion?
I understand a Sunday resurrection excludes a third night as in Matthew 12:40. But as several other passages (above) do not mention a third night, it seems reasonable for traditional Christian liturgy to work with a sixth day crucifixion?
But who knows?
Which I realise is off topic, and will do nothing to satisfy your query, but it's the best I can do this year.
Best wishes to you this Easter
From my previous (2018) post #179:
* In Mark 8:31 Jesus says "after three days”
Mark was the first gospel written
* In Matthew 12:40 it's written as "three days and three nights"
* In John 2.19 it's "three days"
* In Luke 13:32 and 24:46 it's written "on the third day", as it is too in Matthew 16:21; 17:23 and 20:19.
So in only one of several passages is the "three nights" added -- obviously as a reference to Jonah -- and as I am quite happy to take the consensus, it doesn't seem to trouble me much. There are other contradictory New Testament passages that have far more serious implications for a literal reading.
They had to break the legs of the crucified, because it was not allowed for the crucifixion to continue on the sabbath. That would be the Saturday, but starting at sundown on Friday -- which is the reason for assuming a sixth day crucifixion?
I understand a Sunday resurrection excludes a third night as in Matthew 12:40. But as several other passages (above) do not mention a third night, it seems reasonable for traditional Christian liturgy to work with a sixth day crucifixion?
But who knows?
Which I realise is off topic, and will do nothing to satisfy your query, but it's the best I can do this year.
Best wishes to you this Easter
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A quick point here, that resolves the argument, is that there is a weekly sabbath, and there is also additional sabbaths, during the great festivals of the Hebrew year. So when the New Testament speaks of the sabbath, it does not mean the Friday/Saturday.
Particular to the crucifixion:
Particular to the crucifixion:
This argues for a most likely Thursday crucifixion.
Understood. I don't think the day really matters, but the traditional Christian liturgy is based on Good Friday and Easter Sunday?
It is obviously ritualistic and traditional and a commemoration of the singular event in Christian theology, rather than an insistence upon exact days and times, imo?
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Thomas,
re: "A quick point here, that resolves the argument, is that there is a weekly sabbath, and there is also additional sabbaths, during the great festivals of the Hebrew year."
Actually it doesn't because your point concerns an issue for a different topic.
re: "A quick point here, that resolves the argument, is that there is a weekly sabbath, and there is also additional sabbaths, during the great festivals of the Hebrew year."
Actually it doesn't because your point concerns an issue for a different topic.
Very apt.
@Thomas Sorry I have edited this post because I mistook the post directly above, and directed at you from @rstrats, as one from yourself. After so many years on internet forums he still does not seem to have figured out how to use the reply button.
Sorry for my mistake. Wishing you and your family a pleasant lockdown Easter weekend, Thomas.
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Oh dear, I'm sorry. I've lost track of what the current issue is ...
For some it is the pandemic, for others it is saving their souls, for others..maybe most...it is wondering where the next meal is coming from
I have been intrigued by @rstrats and done a bit of digging.
He is directing his query specifically at those who believe in a Friday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection. He is asking them to provide written evidence for assuming the 'three days and three nights' of Matthew 12:40 was a common usage at the time. The historical evidence does not have to come from scripture.
He is now in his 80s, does not have a religious belief, and has been asking for evidence on multiple sites for about a decade now, bumping his threads every so often to encourage anyone new to come forward with evidence -- so far with no success. He is often a bit cantankerous with what he perceives as off-topic replies and seems not at all interested in any side discussions about anything else.
His query is also directed specifically at those who think that the 'heart of the earth' is referring to the tomb, rather than perhaps Christ's descent into hell -- the harrowing of hell -- between His death and resurrection, which latter is my own interpretation of the term.
He is directing his query specifically at those who believe in a Friday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection. He is asking them to provide written evidence for assuming the 'three days and three nights' of Matthew 12:40 was a common usage at the time. The historical evidence does not have to come from scripture.
He is now in his 80s, does not have a religious belief, and has been asking for evidence on multiple sites for about a decade now, bumping his threads every so often to encourage anyone new to come forward with evidence -- so far with no success. He is often a bit cantankerous with what he perceives as off-topic replies and seems not at all interested in any side discussions about anything else.
His query is also directed specifically at those who think that the 'heart of the earth' is referring to the tomb, rather than perhaps Christ's descent into hell -- the harrowing of hell -- between His death and resurrection, which latter is my own interpretation of the term.
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