Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?

Did they lie? Not within the context of a Greco-Roman outlook, which is undoubtably the frame of reference the writers were in (I do not believe there is sufficent internal or external proof that the Gospels were actually written by who they are attributed to). Did they make a mistake? Of course, the Jewish tradition (which would have been Jesus' and the original disciples') does not support any "three day" scenario.

John (from the internal consistency and verifiability to the cultural context) is probably the closest we have to an eye-witness account (even though my People, the Jews, have the most problem with this Gospel).

The important thing is not the "logical truth" of the words, but the "soiritual truth" of the idea. I believe that, in their own way, both wil and Thomas are correct.
 
Me!? I've actually had a cold for a half a week, but I feel much better today. Actually got some cleaning done cause I got a Jehovah's Witness and his wife coming by tomorrow, a really nice guy, only met her once. I'll try and remember to ask them about the Three Days and Nights conundrum.

And you? You sound much more open to discussion today, is it because you're talking to wil?
(he is just too insightful for me)
Radar and wil, sittin' in a tree...
 
Yeah, I had a real scare about a spot in my right lung. After years of working around asbestos, welding, radioactive material, and (alas) smoking. Figured that was it. Grew from noting in May (when I had rotator cuff surgery) to 2 cm a couple of weeks ago. Then the PET showed still more growth and a sac of fluid around it.

An "anaerobic microbacterial infection" (doctorese for it ain't cancer, you lucky man). They have me on ciprel (really broad-spectrum die-hard antibotic). Playing havor with my intestines.

I have to admit, every time I talk to wilk or Thomas, I feel better.
 
Jesus, Radar! Couldn't you have said 'It's not cancer but' instead of that. My heart was racing though those three lines. Well I'm really happy for you right now. I hope for a quick recovery and your good spirits back. Go send some messages to Thomas and wil!
 
Hi guys — here's praying for ya'!

Had my own scare last year — testicular cancer — turned out to be a hydroseal (fluid build up), harmless but uncomfortable and was well on the way, while waiting for an op, to growing my own space-hopper!

All better now.
 
Regarding Christmas: Did they (whoever 'they' might be) lie, or even perhaps, did they practice a 'viable' deception?

No, we can't say that. The early Fathers are quite open in their speculation regarding the date. Clement, Tertullian, Eusebius and others not only put up their own dates, but point out the speculations of others. This may seem strange, but the date was nowhere near a big a deal as it has subsequently become. Easter is, East and West, the 'Feast of feasts' or 'Solemnity of solemnities' in the Liturgical cycle of the church.

So where does that leave us?

The common and popular idea, that the Christians simply took a pagan feast day, is tosh. December 25 is mentioned in the early 4th century, and in those days Christian writers didn't really associate Our Lord with solar imagery, so the notion looks very thin.

Furthermore all the evidence we do hold shows the Christians of this time forcefully rejected any association with pagan feasts, festivals or practices. It's a popular assertion, but it's an anachronism — informed scholarship rejects the idea completely. There's just too much evidence to the contrary.

Later, yes. By the late 4th century the Church was happy to appropriate dates, places, practices because they held that there is but one God, and those 'virtuous' pagan practices, like the remembrance of the dead, or offering prayers to the deity, were directed towards the same God whom they perceived only dimly, in myth and metaphor.

So, hats in the ring for Christmas.

For my part, I reject the 'appropriated pagan date' as being a popular misconception.

I tend to reject astronomical workings (without even going into the mystery of the Magi) as there's no really conclusive evidence, although lots of plausible ideas — a comet, a supernova, a conjunction of the planets ... and of course it's all well and good following a star to the East, but when do you stop? You'll end up in China, or Japan or somewhere, surely? (Or back where you started. imagine the chagrin at that!)

Not that I reject it altogether. I tend to accept the school of scholarship that says the Magi were astronomer/philosophers within the Hebrew tradition, followers of the Temple of Solomon.

A better working from Scripture is September. The census would happen around then, after the harvest, as was the common custom. Shepherds would still be in the fields with their flocks...

Zacharias was a priest serving in the Jerusalem temple during the course of Abijah (Luke 1:5). Historical calculations for the year most likely place Zacharias service corresponding to June 13-19. It was during this time of temple service that Zacharias learned that he and his wife, Elizabeth, would have a child (Luke 1:8-13). After he completed his service he went home, and Elizabeth conceived (verses 23-24). Assuming John's conception took place near the end of June, adding nine months brings us to the end of March as the most likely time for John's birth.

Since Elizabeth (John's mother) was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived (Luke 1:24-36), adding another six months (the difference in ages between John and Jesus) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus' birth.

Now my favourite is this:

In Donatist writings, dating from late 3rd early 4th century, we find December 25 date.

Our Lord's conception carried with it the promise of salvation through his death (cf Luke 2:34). It was not without reason then that the Early Christian Church celebrated His conception and death on the same calendar day: March 25, exactly nine months before December 25. This is based on the existing idea of the cyclical nature of time. Our current linear notion is very late.

Around 200AD Tertullian (in Carthage) reported the calculation that Nisan 14 (the day of the crucifixion according to the Gospel of John) in the year Jesus died was equivalent to March 25 in the Roman calendar. March 25 is, of course, nine months before December 25. (It was later recognized as the Feast of the Annunciation – the commemoration of Our Lord's conception.) Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.

This idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes, which appears to come from fourth-century North Africa. The treatise states: "Therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth of the kalends of April in the month of March (March 25), which is the day of the passion of the Lord and of his conception. For on that day he was conceived on the same he suffered." Based on this, the treatise dates Jesus’ birth to the winter solstice.

Augustine, too, was familiar with this association. In On the Trinity (c 399–419AD) he writes: “For he [Jesus] is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day also he suffered; so the womb of the Virgin, in which he was conceived, where no one of mortals was begotten, corresponds to the new grave in which he was buried, wherein was never man laid, neither before him nor since. But he was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th."

In the East, too, the dates of Jesus’ conception and death were linked. But instead of working from the 14th of Nisan in the Hebrew calendar, the easterners used the 14th of the first spring month (Artemisios) in their local Greek calendar – April 6 to us. April 6 is, of course, exactly nine months before January 6 – the eastern date for Christmas. In the East, too, we have evidence that April was associated with Jesus’ conception and crucifixion. Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis writes that on April 6, "The lamb was shut up in the spotless womb of the holy virgin, he who took away and takes away in perpetual sacrifice the sins of the world."

Thus, we have Christians in two parts of the world calculating Jesus’ birth on the basis that his death and conception took place on the same day (March 25 or April 6) and coming up with two close but different results (December 25 and January 6).

Connecting Jesus’ conception and death in this way reflects ancient and medieval understandings of the whole of salvation being bound up together. One of the most poignant expressions of this belief is found in Christian art. In numerous paintings of the Annunciation, the baby Jesus is shown gliding down from heaven on or with a small cross, a visual reminder that the conception brings the promise of salvation through Jesus’ death as stated in Scripture.

The notion that creation and redemption should occur at the same time of year is also reflected in ancient Jewish tradition, recorded in the Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud preserves a dispute between two early-second-century rabbis who share this view, but disagree on the date: Rabbi Eliezer states: "In Nisan the world was created; in Nisan the Patriarchs were born; on Passover Isaac was born ... and in Nisan they (our ancestors) will be redeemed in time to come." (The other rabbi, Joshua, dates these same events to the following month, Tishri.)

Thus, the dates of Christmas and Epiphany would most likely have resulted from Christian theological reflection on such chronologies: Jesus would have been conceived on the same date he died, and born nine months later.

The 'actual' celebration of Christmas in its liturgical context is the Mass. All the other elements of the festivities were, over time, incorporated from cultural practice, and continued to do so, as is evidenced by Christmas trees, Santa Claus and, Lord help us, the TV ad showing the CocaCola trucks winding through snow-clad forests (one of my daughters regards the first CocaCola ad as the start of Christmas. Where did I go wrong? :( )

But the fact remains that December 25 was there, and were there at a time when Christians would accept only the data from within their own tradition, which included the Hebrew Scriptures, even though, tragically, the schism with Judaism had, by then, set itself in stone in the hearts of men.

So, for reasons theological, philosophical, metaphysical and symbolic, December 25 seems the mostlikely and viable date for me, but if it turns out to be another, I won't be heartbroken. It is not a Rule of Faith, it's doctrine, but it's not dogma.

Posted on this day, the Feast of St Deiniol (d.584AD), first Bishop of Bangor.
 
Here's my beef...plain and simple...I didn't grow up and most folks I know didn't grow up...and the vast majority of Christian ADULTS in my country are completely unaware Jesus wasn't born on Christmas and consider it blasphemy when someone says otherwise....

Same with Maundy thurs and good friday...I surely believed that that was the story...

How simple is it to say that this isn't the date, but this is when we celebrate it? Out of convenience and politics of the day the traditions started...this was selected...

We in the US have birthdays and anniversaries and memorials...and they are typically celebrated on the day of the occasion....Nov 11, Dec 7, Sept 11...other things have been affected by the Monday Holiday bill... We accept that it isn't the day, it is the day it is celebrated...

It ain't that hard....am I wrong to think omission is a lie, whether intentional or not?

I agree with Thomas....it is the reflection...however with full disclosure...we eliminate folks that are pissed off later as they find out that this ain't true, and that ain't true...

Bible has contradictions and mistakes SO FREAKIN WHAT!! Christ, I ain't throwin out Jesus with the bath water.... I simply prefer truth... How many disallusioned Christians are out there??? Why do you think they have left the fold???

Hellooo???
 
"For the truth is as holy as the Book to me" ... a line from an old Quaker hymn Walk in the Light (Modern Quakerism: The Quaker song Walk in the Light).

You are correct, I believe, the lessons, the insights are what is important. The book is a product of not just who first said it, but who wrote it down, who transcribed it, who made stupid errors, and who added material to justify some notion (like "crows" for "Arabs" in Kings or "virgin" for "young woman" in Isaiah).
 
... and who added material to justify some notion (like "crows" for "Arabs" in Kings or "virgin" for "young woman" in Isaiah).
Even then ... in the case of Isaiah, the Hebrew almah means maiden, young woman, virgin. There is a specific Hebrew term, bethulah, but that does not rule out almah, at the very least, almah implies a young woman who has not born children, and it's not a leap to assume that such a woman would be presumed to be a virgin.

When the 70 Hebrew scholars translated their Scriptures into Greek, they used the term parthenos which, as they well knew, specifically means 'virgin'. And this was 200 years before Christ, so what notion are they justifying, other than the idea that they believed that's what the prophecy means?

We have to take each case into consideration. It's simply not good enough to make blanket judgements — that way only compounds the error — or judgements based on our own presumptions, or to only accept as true the bits that suit us and dismiss the rest as hokum.

(Where does it say crows in Kings?)
 
Here's my beef...plain and simple...I didn't grow up and most folks I know didn't grow up...and the vast majority of Christian ADULTS in my country are completely unaware Jesus wasn't born on Christmas and consider it blasphemy when someone says otherwise....
Nor was I, but I don't leap to blasphemy.
If you've been accused of blasphemy, it's probably someone using the same kind of blanket argument as yourself.

Same with Maundy thurs and good friday...I surely believed that that was the story...
It is. Christ washed the feet of His disciples the eve of His arrest, and He was removed from the Cross on the eve of the Sabbath. If what day of the week it was matters more than the events that happened, then I suggest you've got the wrong end of the stick. You're stuck with the letter and can't see the spirit. If it wasn't what day of the weeks, it's be 'ah, but what was the time?'

How simple is it to say that this isn't the date, but this is when we celebrate it?
We do. How simple is it not to cross-check every fact we grow up with, as we grow up?

The way you come across, you believed the things you heard as a child, and never bothered to question them. A lot of people do, about all sorts of things. But not everybody has a crisis of faith and assumes everything is a conspiracy and blames everyone else when the truth dawns.

It ain't that hard....am I wrong to think omission is a lie, whether intentional or not?
Yes.

Christ, I ain't throwin out Jesus with the bath water....
Of course you are. Father, out. Son, out. Virgin Birth, out. All the miracles, out. Betrayal, out. Resurrection, out. Appearances, out. Paul, out. Baptism, out. Eucharist, out. Nearly all of what He did, out. Most of what He said, out ... Even His very existence you hold as questionable.

Man, you threw out the water, the baby, the bath ...
 
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Even then ... in the case of Isaiah, the Hebrew almah means maiden, young woman, virgin. There is a specific Hebrew term, bethulah, but that does not rule out almah, at the very least, almah implies a young woman who has not born children, and it's not a leap to assume that such a woman would be presumed to be a virgin.

When the 70 Hebrew scholars translated their Scriptures into Greek, they used the term parthenos which, as they well knew, specifically means 'virgin'. And this was 200 years before Christ, so what notion are they justifying, other than the idea that they believed that's what the prophecy means?

We have to take each case into consideration. It's simply not good enough to make blanket judgements — that way only compounds the error — or judgements based on our own presumptions, or to only accept as true the bits that suit us and dismiss the rest as hokum.

(Where does it say crows in Kings?)

If jebus was really a god, or even a mighty angel who once lived in heaven, then it was never a real man, but a Divine Person dressed up in human flesh.
 
The latter.
For the Christian, the Resurrection is the thing: "And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins" (1 Corinthians 15:17).

The Christian Faith does not stand or fall on what day Nisan 14 fell in what year. It really doesn't matter. What matters, as our Orthodox brothers and sisters say, is that "Christ is risen! He is risen indeed!"
Risen & existed only in your apparently & allegedly preferred Story book!
 
If jebus was really a god, or even a mighty angel who once lived in heaven, then it was never a real man, but a Divine Person dressed up in human flesh.
Or the Divine nature in a unity with our human nature — the philosophical, metaphysical and theological term you're missing is hypostasis.
 
Risen & existed only in your apparently & allegedly preferred Story book!
And refuted 'only in your apparently and allegedly preferred' opinion?

There's a lot more insight and wisdom in my story book than in your opinions, my friend, whoever you may be.
 
Thinking on Wil's and Thomas's comments, perhaps it was the reason these falsehoods were created in the first place that is the source of the issue.

The dating of these Christian holidays was deliberately moved onto Pagan festivals because the Church did not have the power to simply stamp out the Pagan holidays yet. So they did the next best thing. They overwrote their own holidays over the Pagan ones. Over time as Christianity grew, more and more people accepted the words of the Church, and the Pagan ways were forgotten.

For me anyway, it is the intention behind an act that makes it acceptable or reprehensible. These lies were spread by men of the Church with an agenda. To stamp out nonChristian festivals and holidays.

When people are brought up in the Christian faith and are told Christmas day is the day of Jesus' birth, they are going to accept that. Why wouldn't they? When they later find out it is all a fabrication, there are those who are going to begin to wonder what else the Church is lying about.

This concept is what gives me difficulties with religions. There is the supposed Divine aspects on the one hand, and the meddling of mortals to pursue their own agenda on the other. They are so intertwined over the centuries that the only way to justify belief is to cherry pick the pieces that fit someone's belief system.

At least that is how it appears to me.

______________________________________________________________________________
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
 
Thinking on Wil's and Thomas's comments, perhaps it was the reason these falsehoods were created in the first place that is the source of the issue.
That's assuming they were intended as falsehoods.

The dating of these Christian holidays was deliberately moved onto Pagan festivals because the Church did not have the power to simply stamp out the Pagan holidays yet.
No, that's quite wrong. I've shown above that Dec 25th was celebrated before Christianity became the state religion of Rome, and that the Christian communities, who held Dec 25th to be the date, founded on their own internal reasoning of that date — in line with Hebrew thought — utterly rejected any association with pagan practices.

The incorporation of pagan festivals, and practices associated with them, came later.

For me anyway, it is the intention behind an act that makes it acceptable or reprehensible. These lies were spread by men of the Church with an agenda. To stamp out nonChristian festivals and holidays.
Wrong again, I'm afraid. If the Church wanted them 'stamped out', they would have done so, as they sought to eradicate 'Gnosticism', which they saw as false, as error and heresy. Where they made the decision to allow incorporation, it was for the same reasoning as mine, that within paganism there is an authentic desire to know and serve the God of Scripture — the same God as they professed. Thus the Cathari, the Pauliani, the Perfectoi, and other sects who sought communion with the 'Church' recognised by Constantine and under the Creed of Nicea (325AD) were received and their ordinations considered valid. The Arians, who's contrary and anti-Trinitarian dogma necessitated the calling of the council, were refuted. Indeed, the Arians outnumbered the orthodox at some points (the populations of cities and countries being assumed that of their residing Bishops), but the Church made no attempt to accommodate or incorporate, by deceit otherwise, the Arian 'error'.

When people are brought up in the Christian faith and are told Christmas day is the day of Jesus' birth, they are going to accept that. Why wouldn't they? When they later find out it is all a fabrication, there are those who are going to begin to wonder what else the Church is lying about.
This view, I'm afraid, is not born out by the facts.

As early as Pope Sixtus I (115-124AD), some Christians held Easter to a Sunday in the lunar month of Nisan. To determine which lunar month was to be designated as Nisan, Christians relied on the Jewish community.
By the later 3rd century some Christians began to express dissatisfaction with what they took to be the disorderly state of the Jewish calendar. They argued that contemporary Jews were identifying the wrong lunar month as the month of Nisan, choosing a month whose 14th day fell before the spring equinox.
Christians argued that according to long-standing Jewish tradition Nisan fell after the equinox. They believed the contemporary Jewish calendar was a break with the tradition of former times, that Nisan 14 had never preceded the equinox. Others felt that the customary practice of reliance on the Jewish calendar should continue, even if the Jewish computations were in error from a Christian point of view.
The Council of Nicea resolved the issue endorsing the procedure that had been in use for some time at Rome and Alexandria. Easter was henceforward to be a Sunday in a lunar month chosen according to Christian, and traditional Jewish, criteria.
Those who argued for continued reliance on the Jewish calendar (called "protopaschites" by later historians) were urged to come around to the majority position. That they did not all immediately do so is revealed by the existence of sermons, canons and tracts written against the protopaschite practice in the later 4th century.
It's notable that the Council did not decree that Easter must fall on Sunday, because that was already the practice almost universally.

I really don't think that the rehearsing of this, stuff which really 'lights me up' but which I know many Christians hold as of little real importance, is central to the question of faith.

Nor do I see how it will convince anyone of the Resurrection, which is surely the very point that really matters?

This is a very brief snapshot of discussions which ranged far and wide over the centuries, regarding the dating of Easter, the ordering of the canon, etc., etc., discussions which few Christians, despite every claim here to the contrary, lose sleep over. Other issues are far more important for them, and all the evidence points to clear reasoning behind these decisions.

To continue to say they are 'lies', without offering a shred of proof to support your argument (I say there is none), in the face of clear evidence to the contrary (of which there's reams), is to perpetuate your 'truth of the matter' that flies in the face of the facts.

If you want to argue that December 25 was the result of fabrication and lies to con the gullible pagan, the result of an 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' mentality, please show your evidence to that end.

I will continue to stand by the material evidence we have, that the actual date was never stipulated in Scripture, but the date was chosen, very early on, for reasons entirely in accord with contemporary Hebrew, Christian and Hellenist mystical contemplation.

This concept is what gives me difficulties with religions.
I think it's clear where the difficulty actually lies. You don't know the reasons, so assume the worst.

They are so intertwined over the centuries that the only way to justify belief is to cherry pick the pieces that fit someone's belief system.

At least that is how it appears to me.
That's surely a case of the blind leading the blind? That's like learning to read by inventing the meaning of the words.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
That's what I've been arguing all along.
 
I guess it depends on which opinions one wants to accept.

Thomas you write a convincing argument, one I do not have the knowledge to refute.

I have read that many Biblical scholars place JC's birth in the Spring.

For an alternate look at this topic of when Jesus was born, I found this site:

Birth of Jesus Christ - Here a little, there a little - Holy Days

This fellow seems to make a convincing argument using biblical text as his basis that JC was not born on or near December 25th.

Again, I personally do not have the background in the subject to know whether his or your version is closer to the truth. So I am going to have to take a step back and accept my ignorance for now.
 
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