Who wrote the gospels?

It is discussion Thomas. I compose and write my belief, understanding, opinion....you write yours.

We just discovered what we now believe to be our solar systems largest volcano...right here on earth...previoiusly we thought the largest volcano was on Mars, and science postulated that due to their weaker gravity the huge wide shield shaped vocano were possible there, but no here....and now...they've discovered otherwise and have to rethink their thinking.

This is my problem with biblical apolegy....folks want to leave 2,000 year old thinking alone and not use thier brains, technology and historical data that indicates it may be wrong. They cling to beliefs that have been told around the campfire 4,000 years ago simply becuase they've been told around the campfire for 4,000 years.

You can't put new wine in old wine skins.

The point is there is valueable information (I believe) contained in the books of the bible and especially in the words and teachings of Jesus....whether Jesus existed or not. And we should not allow anyone to be disallusioned by the books simply because they are contradictory, historically inaccurate or without basis in fact....we should highlight that what we don't know....and exentuate the value of the contemplation of the story.
 
This is my problem with biblical apolegy....
All of it? The whole field of theology, across 2,000 years, can all be defined according to the worst possible example.

They cling to beliefs that have been told around the campfire 4,000 years ago simply because they've been told around the campfire for 4,000 years.
All of them? There's no difference between say, Rahner and Lonergan, on the one hand, and Creationism and the Jesus Seminar on the other? They're all saying the same thing?

The point is there is valueable information (I believe) contained in the books of the bible ...
Based on what?

And we should not allow anyone to be disallusioned by the books simply because they are contradictory, historically inaccurate or without basis in fact...
But this is precisely the source of your disillusionment with the tradition that gave rise to the books.

we should highlight that what we don't know....and exentuate the value of the contemplation of the story.
But by your argument, the story is fundamentally just that. A story, with no reliable foundation in anything real or true whatsoever. In your own words, it was all made up by old men telling tall tales round the fireside. It's all the fancy of men who are utterly unknown to us but who's characters we can undermine by asserting they must be at least as bad as the worst of us.

That altruism, not to mention spiritual insight (and I dare not mention Divine Revelation) is, for us, impossible.

My problem is this:
You rage against the 'disinformation' put forward by the Church — Christmas, Easter — but by disposing of Scripture and scholarship so glibly, your own assertions are just the 'disinformation' of the opposite extreme.

You accuse the Church of accepting everything it has received, despite the evidence that speaks against it, whereas you accept nothing offered, despite the evidence that speaks for it.

Your version of Christianity I find so undermined by an axiomatic skepticism as to be without hope ... if your argument is correct, what is there anyone can believe in?
 
Wil, it sounds as you work from the assumptions that:
a) The bible as a whole is a complete fabrication.
b) Everyone is forced to believe every word literary.

I don't recognise these two at all. An argument could be made for each of them but you seem to skip that discussion all together. If I know you right you two could find some common ground to stand on and argue in less general terms (thus more productively). Sorry for butting in, wants to lend a helping hand.
 
Hi, ACOT. The issue I get steamed up about is this:
If you follow the premise of Wil's argument to its logical conclusion, then Christianity vanishes altogether.

Then what is believed?
Two things: Materially, Only a few sayings, and only a few actions that affirm those sayings, although the report of miracles and supernatural happenings are, in themselves, mere fabrications of the myth-making process.
Of the sayings then, only those that are echoed in other traditions. Christianity as such has no internal validity or credibility. If someone else has said it, then 'Jesus' can be tagged to the saying as well, and so can you, and so can I. If what Jesus says contradicts in any way what the other traditions say, then we can dispose of it as error, inaccurate, unverifiable, and so on.

Formally then, it's does Jesus say what I want to hear? If He does, that's 'authentic' in a generalised sense. He doesn't even have to have said it, we can accept it's the kind of thing He would say.
If what he says, or does, challenges my presumptions, then obviously its fake — the product of anonymous persons bent on myth-making and self-aggrandisement.

What you end up with, as I have said all along, is a Jesus of one's own invention. What else can you have, but a projection of yourself?

The process is not uncommon. It's evident in all the American Christian denominations that align themselves with Christianity, and it's message is either one thing or the other.
On the one hand, it's exclusivity, of 'hellfire and damnation' for sinners (them, whoever 'they' may be), it's the Rapture, Creationism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Shakers ... easily identified as 'fundamentalism' to a greater or lesser degree.
On the other it's inclusivity. These are the denominations that propose a faith of the 'critical minimum'. What's the least I have to profess and still call myself a Christian. Their appeal is universal because it's generic, a collection of really nice things to think and say about ourselves picked up from here and there. Here is Baha'i and the Unity Church. I'm not really obliged to believe in anything other than in the most generalised terms.
It's a 'fundamentalism' again, 'liberal fundamentalism' in this case, but fundamentalism none the less because both camps simply refuse to acknowledge the evidence that challenges its beliefs, finding their own reasons to do so.

The dating of Christmas and Easter, the authors of the Gospels, the selection of the Canon, all these are irrelevant in the context of the argument.

We cannot bring ourselves to believe, and so we find reasons to demonstrate to ourselves we are right.

It's worth remembering that the questions that Wil et al rage about are those first raised by Christians themselves. By theologians and apologists — the very crew he dismisses as a bunch of gullible fundies.

We've resolved them without hysterics. Do I know the precise date on which Our Lord was born and died? No. As for the Canon, I am well aware that the process of selection was not infallible.

Now, let's look at authors.
Do I know the authors? Curiously, I know them better than I know the authors of some of my favourite books. I can see their motive for writing. Take McGilchrist on neuroscience, for instance ... I haven't got a clue. He could be a complete nutter to the rest of the scientific community. Patricia Highsmith and the fabulous Tom Ripley — how does she really feel about her character? M John Harrison, does he really believe we're all lost and befuddled, the victims of circumstance in a world utterly beyond our comprehension?
Shakespeare, good grief, how little do we know about him?

Wil wants to know the details, but that will never suffice. Who really knows what was in the author's mind? We all have hang-ups, so even the author him or herself does not know, or at least, we're not obliged to accept their testimony.
I posted a link to Fernseeds and Elephants by C.S. Lewis when he asserts that critics of his own work make assertions that are founded in nothing more than their own assumptions, yet that does not prevent him in faith.
My point is, with all the questions answered, that would not stop a critic saying, 'yeah, well that's what he would say ...' Especially of someone claiming to have heard the Word of God.

Most tragic, in my view, is an outlook so steeped in the letter that the spirit is occluded. The letter is there for forensic examination, with all its supposed errors, contradictions, fabrications ... the spirit that supposedly shines from the page is nothing more than what we brought to it, what we were looking for and wanted to find.

There was an experiment. A computer programmer used the same 'reading' of the text as presented by the Jehovah's Witnesses, who claim to prophecy from the numerical clues contained in the Bible. In this case he used Moby Dick and, after extracting the data and re-arranging it enough times, he provided the same thing. The Tribulation, the few saved, the date ... I think he even managed to show MD prophesied 9/11.

Theosophists, Unity, Baha'i and many others read the Christian Scriptures the same way. They extract and arrange' the materials relevant to their thesis, regardless of what the text in actually saying in its own context.

In short, what they want to assert is their own gospel, the truth according to me, and I am out of order for levelling even a fraction of the critical judgements they so glibly level at others.
 
I'm with ACOT on this one, it sounds like you two guys are not having the same conversation.
 
This is the inherent conflict that seems to come up when the conservation leads to one side approaching the subject from the spiritual angle, the other from the historical angle.

Is it possible for this type of discussion to ever achieve any sort of satisfying results to either side? I view it as an analogy as one person transmitting on AM radio, the other transmitting on FM. Both signals are going out, but neither can hear the other.

Is there a common wavelength that could bridge this gap?
 
that's really cool, could you give me the link to the testimonies of this?

Hey Tea,
I didn't forget your question. I wrote a fairly lengthy reply, but it got put on hold for moderator approval and may have gotten lost in the process, as my response was a couple days ago at this point, and my reply was never posted.

If it was deemed inappropriate and junked that is fine. It would be helpful for me, though, to know why it was not appropriate......
 
Hey Tea,
I didn't forget your question. I wrote a fairly lengthy reply, but it got put on hold for moderator approval and may have gotten lost in the process, as my response was a couple days ago at this point, and my reply was never posted.

If it was deemed inappropriate and junked that is fine. It would be helpful for me, though, to know why it was not appropriate......
That happens when you're a new guy, Brian will probably approve it one of these days. If it was that lengthy we can just wait for it.

There is hardly anything I like more than folks telling me what I think and believe.

Well, the three stooges I suppose.
That's understandable. But since it was meant as a question because I DON'T know what you think or believe, it would be a waste to take it as such.
 
All of it? The whole field of theology, across 2,000 years, can all be defined according to the worst possible example.
No, I didn't say I had a problem with theology, I indicated I had a problem with those that bend fourteen different ways from Sunday that try to prove this or that works by some circuitus work
All of them? There's no difference between say, Rahner and Lonergan, on the one hand, and Creationism and the Jesus Seminar on the other? They're all saying the same thing?
Should I take that as rhetorical or satyrical? I'll answer obviously not, each has their own agenda and interpretation.
But this is precisely the source of your disillusionment with the tradition that gave rise to the books.


But by your argument, the story is fundamentally just that. A story, with no reliable foundation in anything real or true whatsoever. In your own words, it was all made up by old men telling tall tales round the fireside. It's all the fancy of men who are utterly unknown to us but who's characters we can undermine by asserting they must be at least as bad as the worst of us.
I believe my own words were that it came from oral tradition, men and women telling and retelling the stories around a fire for years, decades for Christians, centuries for Jews before it was written down. Do I believe a bush burned and the finger of G!d carved commandments in stone?? Sorry.
That altruism, not to mention spiritual insight (and I dare not mention Divine Revelation) is, f

or us, impossible.

My problem is this:
You rage against the 'disinformation' put forward by the Church — Christmas, Easter — but by disposing of Scripture and scholarship so glibly, your own assertions are just the 'disinformation' of the opposite extreme.
My 'rage' is (if you are correct) being lead down a path of confusion for decades, regarding three days from good friday to easter....when you've indicated Maundy thurs and good friday didn't occur on thurs and friday but on t/w or w/th.... yeah, my cross to bear, it pisses me off when I'm told stories that are claimed to be true....but are not.
You accuse the Church of accepting everything it has received, despite the evidence that speaks against it, whereas you accept nothing offered, despite the evidence that speaks for it.
What is it that I deny, against insurmountable evidence??
Your version of Christianity I find so undermined by an axiomatic skepticism as to be without h

ope ... if your argument is correct, what is there anyone can believe in?
Millions of us believe in plenty, It is all quite pleasing, comforting.

Wil, it sounds as you work from the assumptions that:
a) The bible as a whole is a complete fabrication.
No not quite, It is a collection of various books, some historical fiction/hyperbole, some based on visions, others contain parables, mythology, mysticism, metaphor
b) Everyone is forced to believe every word literary.
heck no, i sure don't. But when it comes to celebrations, I'm confounded why truth is avoided.
I don't recognise these two at all. An argument could be made for each of them but you seem to skip that discussion all together. If I know you right you two could find some common ground to stand on and argue in less general terms (thus more productively). Sorry for butting in, wants to lend a helping hand.
Skip discussion?? is that what ten thousand posts is?? skipping discussion?
Hi, ACOT. The issue I get steamed up about is this:
If you follow the premise of Wil's argument to its logical conclusion, then Christianity vanishes altogether.
You've stated this numerous times. And in my viewpoint, had the truths been discussed and brought out openly, the second largest denomination would not be nonpracticing Catholics...it is precisely this stance that has caused folks to vanish from the church...by discussing the nuance and inconsistencies people wouldn't have left when they cropped up over and over...
Then what is believed?
Two things: Materially, Only a few sayings, and only a few actions that affirm those sayings, although the report of miracles and supernatural happenings are, in themselves, mere fabrications of the myth-making process.
Of the sayings then, only those that are echoed in other traditions. Christianity as such has no internal validity or credibility. If someone else has said it, then 'Jesus' can be tagged to the saying as well, and so can you, and so can I. If what Jesus says contradicts in any way what the other traditions say, then we can dispose of it as error, inaccurate, unverifiable, and so on.

Formally then, it's does Jesus say what I want to hear? If He does, that's 'authentic' in a generalised sense. He doesn't even have to have said it, we can accept it's the kind of thing He would say.
Again, so nonsensical it shouldn't even be addressed. It isn't what I am determing as authentic, it is what current scholars are considering authentic. Yup, Bart Ehrman when he actually got down to stuydying and questioning after years of religious education...the rug was pulled out from under him....he completely rejected it all when he disovered how much mythology and power moves were contained in the process....where as millions of others myself and Bishop Spong types read the same informaton, study the same information, and it has increased our spiritual wonder, amazement and joy in following the teachings of Jesus and groking the Christ example.
If what he says, or does, challenges my presumptions, then obviously its fake — the product of anonymous persons bent on myth-making and self-aggrandisement.

What you end up with, as I have said all along, is a Jesus of one's own invention. What else can you have, but a projection of yourself?

The process is not uncommon. It's evident in all the American Christian denominations that align themselves with Christianity, and it's message is either one thing or the other.
On the one hand, it's exclusivity, of 'hellfire and damnation' for sinners (them, whoever 'they' may be), it's the Rapture, Creationism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Shakers ... easily identified as 'fundamentalism' to a greater or lesser degree.
On the other it's inclusivity. These are the denominations that propose a faith of the 'critical minimum'. What's the least I have to profess and still call myself a Christian. Their appeal is universal because it's generic, a collection of really nice things to think and say about ourselves picked up from here and there. Here is Baha'i and the Unity Church. I'm not really obliged to believe in anything other than in the most generalised terms.
It's a 'fundamentalism' again, 'liberal fundamentalism' in this case, but fundamentalism none the less because both camps simply refuse to acknowledge the evidence that challenges its beliefs, finding their own reasons to do so.
I've been educated to know that your version of catholicism is quite different than the American one that I undestood prior to our discussions. Over here hell and damnation and condemnation and original sin is big stuff... we are not worthy and Catholic and Jewish mothers are in competition to see who can out guilt their children. Our Catholics have to go to church if they are x number of miles of travel from a church each week...or they goto hell....they gotta get communion...or they goto hell....they gotta get special dispensation if they can't make it and have to have grounds for such...or they goto hell.... I've seen them go through all this repeatedly in my life.
The dating of Christmas and Easter, the authors of the Gospels, the selection of the Canon, all these are irrelevant in the context of the argument.

We cannot bring ourselves to believe, and so we find reasons to demonstrate to ourselves we are right.

It's worth remembering that the questions that Wil et al rage about are those first raised by Christians themselves. By theologians and apologists — the very crew he dismisses as a bunch of gullible fundies.
This is just it....if they were resolved, the story of how this occurred and the reason why 2+2 doesn't equal 4 should be discussed with everyone to eliminate these questions.
We've resolved them without hysterics. Do I know the precise date on which Our Lord was born and died? No. As for the Canon, I am well aware that the process of selection was not infallible.

Now, let's look at authors.
Do I know the authors? Curiously, I know them better than I know the authors of some of my favourite books. I can see their motive for writing. Take McGilchrist on neuroscience, for instance ... I haven't got a clue. He could be a complete nutter to the rest of the scientific community. Patricia Highsmith and the fabulous Tom Ripley — how does she really feel about her character? M John Harrison, does he really believe we're all lost and befuddled, the victims of circumstance in a world utterly beyond our comprehension?
Shakespeare, good grief, how little do we know about him?
Was that not exactly what my 'short and long" answer said, my answer you lambasted me for.
Wil wants to know the details, but that will never suffice. Who really knows what was in the author's mind? We all have hang-ups, so even the author him or herself does not know, or at least, we're not obliged to accept their testimony.
I posted a link to Fernseeds and Elephants by C.S. Lewis when he asserts that critics of his own work make assertions that are founded in nothing more than their own assumptions, yet that does not prevent him in faith.
We've discussed this before.
My point is, with all the questions answered, that would not stop a critic saying, 'yeah, well that's what he would say ...' Especially of someone claiming to have heard the Word of God.

Most tragic, in my view, is an outlook so steeped in the letter that the spirit is occluded. The letter is there for forensic examination, with all its supposed errors, contradictions, fabrications ... the spirit that supposedly shines from the page is nothing more than what we brought to it, what we were looking for and wanted to find.

There was an experiment. A computer programmer used the same 'reading' of the text as presented by the Jehovah's Witnesses, who claim to prophecy from the numerical clues contained in the Bible. In this case he used Moby Dick and, after extracting the data and re-arranging it enough times, he provided the same thing. The Tribulation, the few saved, the date ... I think he even managed to show MD prophesied 9/11.

Theosophists, Unity, Baha'i and many others read the Christian Scriptures the same way. They extract and arrange' the materials relevant to their thesis, regardless of what the text in actually saying in its own context.

In short, what they want to assert is their own gospel, the truth according to me, and I am out of order for levelling even a fraction of the critical judgements they so glibly level at others.


Yeah..that is what 'they' do...
 
The OP said "As it turns out, there is very little information to be found about the gospel writers. Nobody really knows who they were. Nobody even knows if the names we attribute to them were their real names (probably not). The gospels are the works of anonymous, unknown authors. To me this was astonishing. I began to ask, if we don't know who these people were, how are we to consider the source? And if we cannot consider the source, what reason is there to believe?"

This seems a fair question.

Thomas speaks with genuine emotion that the words are divine, so what does it matter who wrote them (If I am summing up his position correctly).

Wil from a more thoughtful and no less genuine place suggests that while they may not necessarily be Gospel, they are never the less wondrous pieces to seek a deeper understanding of self (If I am summing up his position correctly).

Both seem to agree that the authors themselves are less important than their words.

The Decidedly Delightful Dubious Doubter's Dilemma (Patent Pending), to which I subscribe, causes me to wonder if that answers the OP's question. These texts had mortal origins, be it from one person or a compilation of various people along the way. Does the intent of the writers have no place in deciding the merits of their words? Does their beliefs, biases, world views, life experiences have no relevance to weigh the integrity of their words?

Does the statement that these texts are Divine because they are Divine, not smack of Emperor's New Clothes? These are conundrums I wrestle with. Thoughts would be most appreciated!
 
The OP said "As it turns out, there is very little information to be found about the gospel writers. Nobody really knows who they were. Nobody even knows if the names we attribute to them were their real names (probably not). The gospels are the works of anonymous, unknown authors. To me this was astonishing. I began to ask, if we don't know who these people were, how are we to consider the source? And if we cannot consider the source, what reason is there to believe?"

This seems a fair question.

Thomas speaks with genuine emotion that the words are divine, so what does it matter who wrote them (If I am summing up his position correctly).

Wil from a more thoughtful and no less genuine place suggests that while they may not necessarily be Gospel, they are never the less wondrous pieces to seek a deeper understanding of self (If I am summing up his position correctly).

Both seem to agree that the authors themselves are less important than their words.

The Decidedly Delightful Dubious Doubter's Dilemma (Patent Pending), to which I subscribe, causes me to wonder if that answers the OP's question. These texts had mortal origins, be it from one person or a compilation of various people along the way. Does the intent of the writers have no place in deciding the merits of their words? Does their beliefs, biases, world views, life experiences have no relevance to weigh the integrity of their words?

Does the statement that these texts are Divine because they are Divine, not smack of Emperor's New Clothes? These are conundrums I wrestle with. Thoughts would be most appreciated!

I have been following the discussion and I agree that the story in the gospels has value regardless of who wrote it. It has value as a literary morality tale but not as a source of history as it actually happened. The words and deeds that the gospel authors attributed to Jesus are the words of the gospel authors. I hear the argument all the time that "Jesus said he was God". People can quote chapter and verse where Jesus supposedly said this. But there is no evidence that Jesus himself actually said this, only that an anonymous author said that Jesus said it.
 
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WTF is this crap????
 
As it turns out, there is very little information to be found about the gospel writers. Nobody really knows who they were. Nobody even knows if the names we attribute to them were their real names (probably not). The gospels are the works of anonymous, unknown authors. To me this was astonishing. I began to ask, if we don't know who these people were, how are we to consider the source? And if we cannot consider the source, what reason is there to believe?
This seems a fair question.
It is, as far as the question goes.
As for an answer, or even a summation of the situation, it's quite the opposite.

It's a fundamentalist response.

Conservative Christian Fundamentalists assert that the New Testament was written by M,M,L & J, and that we are obliged to accept every word as the revealed Word of God.

Liberal Christian Fundamentalists assert the opposite, as per Wil's statement above, so that there is no obligation to accept anything, and each individual is free to pick and choose the bits that suit their own personal gospel.

I try and steer for a reasonable Middle Ground, and look at what evidence supports the tradition, what mitigates against it. I rather think Wil's constructed his vision based entirely on the negative critique of Christian sources which he accepts without reserve.

Thomas speaks with genuine emotion that the words are divine, so what does it matter who wrote them (If I am summing up his position correctly).
No, I don't think you are. I'm not arguing the content of the texts at all, just that we know more about their source and origin than certain fundies like to admit.

We know a lot about the authors, who reveal themselves in the text, contrary to what Wil might say, and we can pretty well assert they are not the produce of 'fireside storytelling' — there's not a shred of evidence to support that thesis, as far as I know it's his own invention — and his attempt to undermine the anonymous author by declaring they must have issues, hang-ups, egos, etc., is just character assassination.

These texts had mortal origins, be it from one person or a compilation of various people along the way.
Well, 'origin' is a nebulous term, but yes, they are the works of men, I would say inspired by God, but that's just my credo. A credo that does not allow for the possibility of Divine Revelation/Inspiration is just another fundamentalism in my book.

May I point at this juncture that if you think I never question or wrestle with my faith, you are mistaken. But this kind of thing is milk, rather than meat.

Does the statement that these texts are Divine because they are Divine, not smack of Emperor's New Clothes?
Yes. But I, at least, am not arguing that.
 
I have been following the discussion and I agree that the story in the gospels has value regardless of who wrote it. It has value as a literary morality tale but not as a source of history as it actually happened.
Scholars would say don't be so sure. There is history there, but it's purely in passing.

The words and deeds that the gospel authors attributed to Jesus are the words of the gospel authors.
Which they attributed to God ...

I hear the argument all the time that "Jesus said he was God". People can quote chapter and verse where Jesus supposedly said this. But there is no evidence that Jesus himself actually said this, only that an anonymous author said that Jesus said it.
And yet even Wil would argue that He did say it, although he would then qualify that by saying He meant we are all inherently Divine, although He never said that ... so you see where this kind of thing leave the believing Christian? You guys really need to get your act together!

The evidence is that His followers (who stayed close to the disciples) believed He was the Son of God. Even Paul believed that, and he never even met the guy!

And while there is a lot of evidence to suggest that's what He did say, there's no evidence to say that He didn't ... so the greater likelihood is that He probably did say it. he must have said something to upset the Jewish applecart, else they'd have just regarded Him as another gobby 'prophet'. But His followers celebrated His Sabbath, and only God can institute a Sabbath ...

The point is, you can't say "He didn't say it, because He didn't" without falling into the same Emperor's New Clothes dilemma as those who say He did, because He did, or He's God, because He's God.

The real question then, and really it's the only one that matters, is was He mad, bad, or the Son of God, as C.S. Lewis posed.
 
Which they attributed to God ...

Without being able to verify their identities much less the intent behind the words they wrote, I cannot say if this is true or not.


And yet even Wil would argue that He did say it, although he would then qualify that by saying He meant we are all inherently Divine, although He never said that ... so you see where this kind of thing leave the believing Christian? You guys really need to get your act together!

The evidence is that His followers (who stayed close to the disciples) believed He was the Son of God. Even Paul believed that, and he never even met the guy!

The evidence is pretty weak, ancient texts that have copied and recopied, translated and re-translated, interpreted and re-interpreted countless times over many centuries. Is there no chance that some of the meaning in those texts might have been lost or changed just a little in all that time?


And while there is a lot of evidence to suggest that's what He did say, there's no evidence to say that He didn't ... so the greater likelihood is that He probably did say it. he must have said something to upset the Jewish applecart, else they'd have just regarded Him as another gobby 'prophet'. But His followers celebrated His Sabbath, and only God can institute a Sabbath ...

The point is, you can't say "He didn't say it, because He didn't" without falling into the same Emperor's New Clothes dilemma as those who say He did, because He did, or He's God, because He's God.

I didn't say he didn't say it. I said I have no reason to believe he did say it based on hearsay evidence. No evidence that he didn't say it does not lead me to believe the greater likelihood is that he did.

The real question then, and really it's the only one that matters, is was He mad, bad, or the Son of God, as C.S. Lewis posed.

Maybe he was just a man with some radical new ideas that upset the religious authorities of his time. He doesn't have to be "mad, bad or the son of God." A smart guy like Lewis really should have thought that one through a little better.
 
There is such a thing as a Liberal Fundamentalist?????? Who'da thunk! I always thought the two words mutually exclusive.....
 
Without being able to verify their identities much less the intent behind the words they wrote, I cannot say if this is true or not.
Two things:
From the material pov, that's where scholarship comes in, it has much to say about the identities, motives and messages of the authors. There are many unanswered questions, but there are many answers, too.

Even if we had contemporary biographies of the authors, there would be no reason to accept them as gospel! Contemporary biography is demonstrably not 'exhaustive' nor authoritative' enough to satisfy the skeptic, so even if you had the stuff you want, it would not be enough to convince you of Christianity. I think what is being looked for is evidence to authenticate skepticism itself, but by its own axioms, a skeptic holds any 'evidence' in a poor light.

From the spiritual pov, it's immaterial. Suffice to say a negative attitude towards the text precludes any real spiritual benefit (that is the order of spirituality the text asserts) from it.
Albert Schweitzer for example, refutes the tradition, but not the essential message of the text: Love God, love thy neighbour. I think I'm right in saying he abandoned 'the Quest for the historical Jesus' (according to the empirical requirement of historicity) as a futile endeavour. The apocryphal and contrary texts are more dubious in provenance than the Canon, and assert a specific agenda which Judaism, and there's no question of Jesus' religious ethnicity, denies.

Schweitzer abandoned such critical investigation to concentrate on living the message, but by our reading he was undeniably 'racist' in his attitude to the people he went to serve, he saw the African as 'my brother, but my younger brother'. Do we refute his achievements entirely on the basis of this paternal racism?

Then again, such negativism has produced nothing that stands alongside the spiritual works of the saints and sages who did not trouble themselves with material 'facts' in the face of such luminous spiritual insight.

The evidence is pretty weak, ancient texts that have copied and recopied, translated and re-translated, interpreted and re-interpreted countless times over many centuries. Is there no chance that some of the meaning in those texts might have been lost or changed just a little in all that time?
Look to scholarship again, and I'll think you'll find that's an overstated assumption. As you say, a negative argument is not an argument, really. We have a vast work of early Christian exegesis, from the first century on, that cites scripture directly, and argues from it, and these citations do not contradict the texts we have. Scholars have examined all the codex materials we posses, and find no contradiction in terms of message and its implication. So words and even phrases might have changed, but the message would appear to be consistent across them all.

The conclusions we draw from it is, of course, another question. That's a matter of faith.

My faith rests on the reasoned argument that the canon, and many of the apocryphal texts, directly or indirectly, and the substantial historical evidence concerning the emergence of what today we call 'orthodox Christianity', substantiate the claim that Jesus declared His divinity. It's at the root of the schism with the Judaism of the day, it's the central, declared intention of the Synoptics, the Johannine and Pauline texts, and it's a notion that upset the Hellenists.

We also have clear evidence that the Fathers themselves treated the question with real importance. They rejected many texts on the basis of a dubious provenance and, in some cases, what they saw, as we do today, as clear evidence of self-aggrandisement. (The Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Thomas being examples of both, as both state, contradicting the other, that they alone 'got it' and the other disciples never did at all — while the question of authorship is even more unlikely that that of the Four Evangelists!)

What you have to remember is there is a lucrative market in the US for authors who write books bucking the 'official' line. Look at how many take Dan Brown to be 'gospel'! Books that come down on the orthodox side get nowhere near the sales or the exposure, so the common and populist view is inescapably slanted. Nor are the assertions made as certain as the author would have us suppose — in many cases their 'agenda' is also quite clear.

I didn't say he didn't say it. I said I have no reason to believe he did say it based on hearsay evidence. No evidence that he didn't say it does not lead me to believe the greater likelihood is that he did.
So the argument's a moot point. It's a question of faith in the absence of fact, but again, the scholarly opinion is it is more likely that He did.

The stuff didn't pop out of nowhere. It used to be argued that Jesus might not have existed at all, but scholars across a number of disciplines (notably sociology) argue that someone must have for the tradition to emerge the way that it did, and the portrait of the man, His message, His agenda and His method painted in Scripture is consistent throughout, and the apocryphal materials support it.

Maybe he was just a man with some radical new ideas that upset the religious authorities of his time.
Maybe. But that's not the picture painted by any of the evidence we have. It's a modern interpretation that reflects the contemporary zeitgeist, rather than that of His day. It's an anachronism.

And what were those ideas? The Shema Israel, His credo, is hardly radical. What was it He said that radicalised Him?

He doesn't have to be "mad, bad or the son of God." A smart guy like Lewis really should have thought that one through a little better.
No, actually He does ... I think you're underestimating just how smart Lewis was ... but I'd be interested in how you reason differently.
 
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