Sin and Salvation

In the original Hebrew it means something like "to stray from the path". With an implied "of God" at the end. The Greek means (I think) "to miss the target". Either way, not much damning there. Remember the parable of the prodigal son. It is not that we have to stray, but it makes the "coming back" a celebration.
 
I remember reading once about a discussion between the chief of a native American tribe and a Christian missionary whose job was to convert them. It went something like.....

Chief: ....so if I did not know anything about your Bible or this thing called sin I would already be saved?

Missionary: Yes, exactly.

Chief: Then why did you tell me?
 
Godmachine said:
One does not necessarily need religion to acknowledge our flaws and imperfections. My question here would be, are those flaws synonymous with 'sin'? Or can we be our flawed human selves without such a concept? My problem when it comes to the concept of sin is that is such a twisted labyrinth of religious dogma that I have to just scratch my head and wonder, what is this thing called 'sin' anyway?
Click to expand...

I don't know if one needs religion for it, but a lot of people believe they do, perhaps they understand sin in a way you and I don't? It's not very strange that you don't understand what sin is or isn't, you probably hear a great many things about it, much that doesn't make any sense. Like hearing the theory of evolution from a hundred different people who don't really understand it enough that they should try and explain it to anyone else.

Godmachine said:
I remember reading once about a discussion between the chief of a native American tribe and a Christian missionary whose job was to convert them. It went something like.....

Chief: ....so if I did not know anything about your Bible or this thing called sin I would already be saved?

Missionary: Yes, exactly.

Chief: Then why did you tell me?
Click to expand...

I get the feeling that this missionary colours your view on all Christians, is that true? They are hardly all the same you know.
 
Thomas to answer your question what is my opposing thesis?

Part of my answer has already been said better by GM
"One does not necessarily need religion to acknowledge our flaws and imperfections. My question here would be, are those flaws synonymous with 'sin'? Or can we be our flawed human selves without such a concept? My problem when it comes to the concept of sin is that is such a twisted labyrinth of religious dogma that I have to just scratch my head and wonder, what is this thing called 'sin' anyway?"

What indeed is sin? Who gets to decide what is sin and what is not? There sure seems to be lots of variation in the definition amongst various religions. So there is no help there.

Humans are born flawed. That sounds better to me. Empirical evidence substantiates it. Who has ever met a person without flaw? I mean today; modern times. Some are less flawed than others, some are way, way more flawed than others.

Flaws are not sins. I am flawed, especially by Christian standards. I reject their standards as no more legitimate than my own.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
I don't know if one needs religion for it, but a lot of people believe they do, perhaps they understand sin in a way you and I don't? It's not very strange that you don't understand what sin is or isn't, you probably hear a great many things about it, much that doesn't make any sense. Like hearing the theory of evolution from a hundred different people who don't really understand it enough that they should try and explain it to anyone else.
Click to expand...

I see the world through one pair of eyes. Undoubtedly other people see things and understand things differently than I do. That does not make any of us 'right'. I am perfectly willing to admit my beliefs and perceptions of the world could be wrong. I see nothing wrong with being wrong as long as we are willing to change when we are shown a different way of looking at things. I am not afraid to say "I don't know".


A Cup Of Tea said:
I get the feeling that this missionary colours your view on all Christians, is that true?
Click to expand...

No that is not true at all. I'm not sure how you would get that impression. I do not and am not trying to paint all Christians with the same broad brush. I just thought it was a cute little anecdote worth sharing. If anything colors my view on Christians, it is my experience with them and I have plenty of experience in that regard.
 
G-Knot and Godmachine, my impression of your posts on this thread implies to me that you have a narrow view of religion and Christians in particular. Now hold on, I'm not saying this to be confrontational because I can't judge your views on this small sample, I'm just trying to be clear about our exchange.

My impression is that you have an idea about sin and you're kind of comfortable with it. And you know you don't agree with it. To me, we are all different, this is not very open-minded, and thus very hard to have a genuine trading of ideas.

I see that you're both from the US. I find it very common to both ends of extreme with people that post from there. They seem to be die hard Christians or die hard atheists having been burned by the former. GM, you say that 'it is my experience with them and I have plenty of experience in that regard' and it sounds like bad experiences, but not all Christians are like that, they aren't all irrational and judgemental, many are very humble.

If you are willing to learn, I would recommend wil, radar, and thomas that are online a lot nowadays. They have three distinct faiths and I ask them lots of questions both basic and not so basic. It's important to remember that when they use words like 'sin' and 'jesus' they are often describing different things, so don't hold the words of one against another.

Now, I'm sorry for speaking to you in such a condescending manner. I'm trying to push the conversation in a certain direction. I hope you take it well and I'm interested in how you respond to this.
 
I'm stepping out, guys ... there seems to be a lot of discussion on the topic of sin, based on a lot of hearsay and assumption, misunderstanding and opinion.

No clear understanding of sin in a Christian context (which nevertheless comes in for the usual stick) and no acknowledgement at all that 'sin' exists in all traditions, secular as well as spiritual.

Here's a general working definition for you:
Sin is the deliberate transgression of a moral norm.
(It's the pursuit of a lesser good and one's own satisfaction in the face of, and at the cost of, a greater good that benefits the self, ones neighbours and the community at large.)
 
How about it is simply not doing your best, not acting from your highest good.

But as you go from one religion, belief, sect, denomination, what is and what is not a sin will vary....

As I said, I was with a Catholic Boy Scout Troop, we had to stir the boys out of their sleeping bags and get them to begin packing up at 6 am so they could get back to town to make it to mass for it was a sin for them to miss it. The only way around it was special dispensation due to distance from any catholic church or haul a priest along with us....

I say it was sin to wake them from their slumber, spoil their fun, and not enjoy a service in the woods designed and created by them...but I was obviously outvoted for years... (we camped every month for 7 years...)
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
G-Knot and Godmachine, my impression of your posts on this thread implies to me that you have a narrow view of religion and Christians in particular. Now hold on, I'm not saying this to be confrontational because I can't judge your views on this small sample, I'm just trying to be clear about our exchange.
Click to expand...

I suppose it depends on your point of view. I focus on Christianity because that is the religion I am most familiar with. I grew up in a Catholic home. I have friends and relatives who call themselves Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, etc. Their views and opinions differ vastly from one another and yet they all call themselves 'Christians'. Sometimes they point fingers at one another and say things like "He/She is not a true Christian." Funny thing is they all find their inspiration in the same book and proclaim to follow the same 'Christ'. It's like one of those stupid old game shows..."Will the REAL Jesus please stand up...." Very confusing.....

A Cup Of Tea said:
My impression is that you have an idea about sin and you're kind of comfortable with it. And you know you don't agree with it. To me, we are all different, this is not very open-minded, and thus very hard to have a genuine trading of ideas.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. Yes I do have my own ideas about the concept of 'sin' and as I have already said, I find it to be a twisted labyrinth of religious dogma. I hear a lot of preaching and I see a lot of finger pointing but I find very few real answers to my questions.

A Cup Of Tea said:
I see that you're both from the US. I find it very common to both ends of extreme with people that post from there. They seem to be die hard Christians or die hard atheists having been burned by the former. GM, you say that 'it is my experience with them and I have plenty of experience in that regard' and it sounds like bad experiences, but not all Christians are like that, they aren't all irrational and judgemental, many are very humble.
Click to expand...

Well here you've found a die hard agnostic. I don't have any hard feelings against Christians but I've spent enough of my life walking on eggshells and dancing around questions that I feel deserve answers.

Not all my experiences with Christianity have been bad. I know a lot of Christians that are really awesome people who I would die for if I had to (let's hope I never to put that to the test). I do not think all Christians are irrational and judgmental, I apologize if I have come across that way. My mother asked me recently what I thought about Pope Francis. I could not help but express my admiration for the man. I love his humble, down to earth persona. I think he is just what the Catholic Church needs right now.

A Cup Of Tea said:
If you are willing to learn, I would recommend wil, radar, and thomas that are online a lot nowadays. They have three distinct faiths and I ask them lots of questions both basic and not so basic. It's important to remember that when they use words like 'sin' and 'jesus' they are often describing different things, so don't hold the words of one against another.
Click to expand...

I haven't been here long enough to form an opinion about any of them. So far I can't find any reason to disagree with Wil. Radar seems pretty cool. And I'm not sure what to think of Thomas. I will keep an eye on what they all have to say.

A Cup Of Tea said:
Now, I'm sorry for speaking to you in such a condescending manner. I'm trying to push the conversation in a certain direction. I hope you take it well and I'm interested in how you respond to this.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I started this thread in a rather facetious or sarcastic manner. But it was not meant to be mocking or poking fun at Christianity. I really am interested in what others here have to say about the relationship between sin and salvation. So if you don't mind, let's let the conversation go where it wants to go.
 
wil said:
How about it is simply not doing your best, not acting from your highest good.
Click to expand...
Sounds a bit sentimental to me ...

wil said:
But as you go from one religion, belief, sect, denomination, what is and what is not a sin will vary....
Click to expand...
Yep, as it will in any social structure. Basics remain pretty much in place, murder, theft, etc.,
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
G-Knot and Godmachine, my impression of your posts on this thread implies to me that you have a narrow view of religion and Christians in particular. Now hold on, I'm not saying this to be confrontational because I can't judge your views on this small sample, I'm just trying to be clear about our exchange.

My impression is that you have an idea about sin and you're kind of comfortable with it. And you know you don't agree with it. To me, we are all different, this is not very open-minded, and thus very hard to have a genuine trading of ideas.

I see that you're both from the US. I find it very common to both ends of extreme with people that post from there. They seem to be die hard Christians or die hard atheists having been burned by the former. GM, you say that 'it is my experience with them and I have plenty of experience in that regard' and it sounds like bad experiences, but not all Christians are like that, they aren't all irrational and judgemental, many are very humble.

If you are willing to learn, I would recommend wil, radar, and thomas that are online a lot nowadays. They have three distinct faiths and I ask them lots of questions both basic and not so basic. It's important to remember that when they use words like 'sin' and 'jesus' they are often describing different things, so don't hold the words of one against another.

Now, I'm sorry for speaking to you in such a condescending manner. I'm trying to push the conversation in a certain direction. I hope you take it well and I'm interested in how you respond to this.
Click to expand...

No harm, no foul Tea. I do have a very negative view of Christianity. I freely admit it. The reason I do is that I know too many Christians. I have seen the hypocrisy, the condescension, the closed mindedness too many times. It has affected me to my detriment personally too many times.

It will probably surprise you that, having said what I just did, that I have two very dear friends who are Christians. They are what I refer to as Noble Christians. They are devout in their faith, yet open minded, thoughtful and accepting of others with different beliefs.

I know that not all Christians act the same or think the same. Unfortunately in the Southern U.S. where I live the petty Christians outnumber the Noble ones by a factor of a thousand to one. And as you say, sadly, extremism is epidemic in my country nowadays.

I don't want to be a constant source of negativity here, so I will try to temper my comments; try to see all of this in the bigger picture of the World and not just my little corner of it.
 
Gordian Knot said:
No harm, no foul Tea. I do have a very negative view of Christianity. I freely admit it. The reason I do is that I know too many Christians. I have seen the hypocrisy, the condescension, the closed mindedness too many times. It has affected me to my detriment personally too many times.

It will probably surprise you that, having said what I just did, that I have two very dear friends who are Christians. They are what I refer to as Noble Christians. They are devout in their faith, yet open minded, thoughtful and accepting of others with different beliefs.

I know that not all Christians act the same or think the same. Unfortunately in the Southern U.S. where I live the petty Christians outnumber the Noble ones by a factor of a thousand to one. And as you say, sadly, extremism is epidemic in my country nowadays.

I don't want to be a constant source of negativity here, so I will try to temper my comments; try to see all of this in the bigger picture of the World and not just my little corner of it.
Click to expand...

I appreciate this, the honesty and openness for discussion. I would appreciate it if you help keep me honest and open as well, ok?

wil said:
Funny...they are supposedly sins, unless sanctioned by gov'ts or gods...then it is doing your duty.
Click to expand...
Godmachine said:
Are you saying murder and theft are ALWAYS morally wrong? If that is the case, what makes ownership of land morally right?
Click to expand...
Here I would call for a definition of the words 'murder' and 'theft', we aren't trying to trap him in his own words are we?
 
No not trap 'him' but "Him".

Thou shalt not murder...we no differentiate between murder and killing...killing in war is ok....like pre-emptive war with drone strikes and cruise missles...even if they aren't enemy combatants...they may grow up to be enemy combatants...for now they are collateral damage...but we did not murder them...as that would be a sin. Same with going over the hill and killing whateverites...killing all the able bodied men...and then being ordered from on high to go back and kill all the women and children and old people too...but save the virgins for yourselves...this too is not murder, not a sin, not a trap, but a literal reading of what is written...

Of course I do not do literal readings... thou shall not commit murder is not just murdering a life in our book..but when your child brings home their picture and asks you to put it on the fridge, in a a place of honor in their eyes...don't diss their efforts, don't murder their creative spark....thou shall not steal? All is of G!d, all is G!d's we are incapable of stealing...in the long run it will return....
 
wil said:
No not trap 'him' but "Him".

Thou shalt not murder...we no differentiate between murder and killing...killing in war is ok....like pre-emptive war with drone strikes and cruise missles...even if they aren't enemy combatants...they may grow up to be enemy combatants...for now they are collateral damage...but we did not murder them...as that would be a sin. Same with going over the hill and killing whateverites...killing all the able bodied men...and then being ordered from on high to go back and kill all the women and children and old people too...but save the virgins for yourselves...this too is not murder, not a sin, not a trap, but a literal reading of what is written...

Of course I do not do literal readings... thou shall not commit murder is not just murdering a life in our book..but when your child brings home their picture and asks you to put it on the fridge, in a a place of honor in their eyes...don't diss their efforts, don't murder their creative spark....thou shall not steal? All is of G!d, all is G!d's we are incapable of stealing...in the long run it will return....
Click to expand...

I don't know what this is an answer to, is it perhaps one of your darlings? Perhaps there's a good reason for a murder there :D
 
ACOT said "I appreciate this, the honesty and openness for discussion. I would appreciate it if you help keep me honest and open as well, ok?"

No promises my friend. I find it quite the full time job just keeping myself on the straight and narrow!
 
Thomas said:
"Hypocrisy, pride, self-conceit, wrath, arrogance and ignorance belong, O Partha, to him who is born to the heritage of the demons." The Gita, XVI. 4.
Click to expand...
Hi Thomas. Let me add here The Gita, XVI. 1-3.

"Fearlessness; purification of one's existence; cultivation of spiritual knowledge; charity; self-control; performance of sacrifice; study of the Vedas; austerity; simplicity; nonviolence; truthfulness; freedom from anger; renunciation; tranquility; aversion to faultfinding; compassion for all living entities; freedom from covetousness; gentleness; modesty; steady determination; vigor; forgiveness; fortitude; cleanliness; and freedom from envy and from the passion for honor - these transcendental qualities, O son of Bharata, belong to godly men endowed with divine nature."

Gita is a theist book. But being an atheist, I take Godly men and divine nature to mean just what is admirable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top