Samhain

[Thomas]

I have always assumed that Christianity 'incorporated' the Celtic festival of Samhain into the Christian calendar. No problem with that, we are called to the remembrance of the dead, and Samhain is just that.

But it's not the case.

Samhain is a Gaelic word, and the festival of Samhain is not mentioned in European Celtic texts. It appears in Christian commentaries referring to Gaelic traditions confined to Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man. As the forerunner of Halloween, it is particularly Irish in origin.

The oldest references to Gaelic texts goes back to the 4th century. The oldest extant texts date from the 8th. As far as my brief search has revealed so far, we have no firm evidence that Samhain is older than Christianity, or, put another way, the remembrance of the dead, in Christian literature, predates the festival of samhain in the Gaelic. Nor that the practices of lightning bonfires etc. (as opposed to the modern 'trick or treat') is particularly pagan.

There does seem a tradition of playing tricks on the neighbours, but if my folks are anything to go by, the Gaels do not confine this to one day of the year. Some of my dad's tales about what he and his pals got up to at funerals and wakes are 'hair-raising', one ending with him being told 'if you do that again I'll flay your hide!' by his dad.

 

[radarmark]

Kinda depend on what you mean by "older than Christianity", doesn't it? While the "Macgnímartha Finn", "Táin Bó Cúailnge" and "Rúraíocht" may not exist in written form before the Middle Ages, the context of the tales, their internal references, and external (like Julius Caesar) datings make them at least as old as Christianity (see, for example, the dating in various academic texts given in http://vuir.vu.edu.au/16108/1/Jaquelyn_Osborne_phd_thesis.pdf). Even if they are as late as IVth century, they would still predate the Christian Religion in Ireland or Mann).

Yes, the classic Irish myths may be dated to sometime after the Gospels (in terms of the age of the oldest examples), the Gospels really could not (or very, very, likely could not) have influenced them. This question is very similar to the dating of the Old Testament. Do you accept they probably existed before the Septuagint found on Egyptian papyrus? If so, you should consider the Irish myths as pre-existing the Book of Kells.

 

[wil]

Thomas, when did trick or treat come to England? in your time? or before your time?

 

[Aupmanyav]

As far as my brief search has revealed so far, we have no firm evidence that Samhain is older than Christianity, or, put another way, the remembrance of the dead, in Christian literature, predates the festival of samhain in the Gaelic. Nor that the practices of lightning bonfires etc. (as opposed to the modern 'trick or treat') is particularly pagan.

Thomas, you are too Christian-centric to do fair research. These traditions are thousands of years older than Christianity (might actually go back to the last ice-age). Read this:

"Speaking of the ancient Celtic year Prof. Rhys observes, “Now as the Celts were in the habit formerly of counting winters, and of giving precedence in their reckoning to night and winter over day and summer, I should argue that the last day of the year in the Irish story of Diarmait’s death meant the eve of November of All-Halloween, the night before the Irish Samhain, and known in Welsh as Nos Galan-gaeaf, or the Night of the winter Calends. But there is no occasion to rest on this alone, for we have the evidence of Cormac’s Glossary that the month before the beginning of winter was the last month, so that the first day of the first month of winter was also the first day of the year.”

Various superstitious customs are then alluded to, showing that the eve of November was considered to be the proper time for prophecy or the appearance of goblins; and the Professor then closes the discussion regarding the above-mentioned last day of the Celtic year with the remark that “It had been fixed upon as the time of all others, when the Sun-god whose power had been gradually falling off since the great feast associated with him on the first of August, succumbed to his enemies, the powers of darkness and winter. It was their first hour of triumph after an interval of subjection, and the popular imagination pictured them stalking aboard with more than ordinary insolence and aggressiveness; and if it comes to giving individuality and form to the deformity of darkness, to describe it as a sow, black or grisly, with neither ears nor tail, is not perhaps very readily surpassed as an instance of imaginative aptitude.”

This shows that the ancient Celtic year closed with the season of autumn and the beginning of winter which corresponded with the last day of October, or the eve of November, and was marked by festivals which indicated the victory of darkness on the auspicious occasion; and no prince, who failed to be present on the last day of the fair, durst look forward to prosperity during the coming year. The Lugnassad was the great event of the summer half of the year, which extended form the calends of May to the calends of winter. The Celtic year was more thermometric than astronomical, and the Lugnassad was so to say its summer solstice, whereas the longest day was, so far as I have been able to discover, of no special account.”

The great feast of the Lugnassad thus marked the middle of the year or summer, and it was held at the beginning of August. Therefore, “the First of May must, according to Celtic ideas, have been the right season for the birth of the summer sun-god”;† and this is confirmed by the story of Gwin and Gwythur, who fought for the same damsel, and between whom peace was made on the condition that they were to fight for the damsel “on the Calends of May every year thenceforth till the Day of Doom, and he who should prove victorious on the Day of Doom was to take the Damsel to wife.”

This is interpreted by Prof. Rhys to mean that “the Sun-god would recover his bride at the beginning of summer after his antagonist had gained possession of her at the beginning of winter;” and he compares the legend to the story of Persephone, daughter of Zeus carried away by Pluto, who was, however, able to retain her at his side only for six months in the year. We might also cite in this connection the legend of Demeter or Mother Earth, who is said to rejoice for six months in the presence of Proserpine, the green herb, her daughter, and for six months regret her absence in dark abodes beneath the earth. The ancient Celtic year thus seems to nave been divided into two halves, one representing the six summer months and the other, which commenced on the eve of November, the six months of winter darkness.

But what is still more remarkable is that just as the Ṛig-Veda gives us the exact date of the commencement of the battle between Indra and Shambara, so Celtic myths record the exact date of the first battle of Moytura and also of the fight between Labraid of the Swift Hand on the Sword, king of an Irish Hades, whom Cuchulainn goes to assist, and his enemies called the Men of Fidga. They were fought on the eve of November, “when the Celtic year began with the ascendancy of the powers of darkness.” Prof. Rhys further points out that the ancient Norse year was similar in character. The great feast of the Norsemen occupied three days called the Winter Nights and began on the Saturday falling on or between the 11th and the 18th of October; and according to Dr. Vigfusson this feast marked the beginning of the ancient year of the Norsemen. The old Norse year thus appears to have been shorter by a few days than the Celtic one; but Prof. Rhys accounts for this difference on the ground “that winter, and therefore the year commences earlier in Scandinavia than in the continental centre from which the Celts dispersed themselves.”

Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak — The Arctic Home in the Vedas — Chapter 12, Comparative Mythology, Page 368 onwards.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Thomas, you are too Christian-centric to do fair research.

Unfair statement I think

 

[Thomas]

Kinda depend on what you mean by "older than Christianity", doesn't it?

I know ... very tricky. But it does highlight the dilemma.

Yes, the classic Irish myths may be dated to sometime after the Gospels (in terms of the age of the oldest examples), the Gospels really could not (or very, very, likely could not) have influenced them.

I never meant to imply that.

This question is very similar to the dating of the Old Testament. Do you accept they probably existed before the Septuagint found on Egyptian papyrus? If so, you should consider the Irish myths as pre-existing the Book of Kells.

Oh, I do, I was just really surprised to discover this.

 

[Thomas]

Thomas, when did trick or treat come to England? in your time? or before your time?

Oh, very much in my time. It appeared around the 1980s.

 

[radarmark]

Aup, good post (IMHO). For while there is no definitive, objective proof that Samhain predates Christianity, there is no proof of the opposite either. In terms of empirical proof (stuff that can be radio-carbon dated) they are ti9ed at about the IVth century.

To assert that Christianity influenced the myths of Samhain, one would have to believe that some believer from outside the Celtic realms was so impressed by the Gospels that he or she created a set of myths within the Celtic myth-cycle that were immediately accepted as true.

Sorry, this is very, very unlikely. The Celtic culture swept across Europe during the era of the early Roman state. From classic Roman texts we know they were polytheistic and led by Druids. Both of these factors play heavily in the written texts about Samhain.

To believe classic Samhain texts ("Macgnímartha Finn", "Táin Bó Cúailnge" and "Rúraíocht") were influenced by Christianity would mean one assumes that sometime between 100 BCE (the earliest Latin texts) and 400 CE someone was able to influence the oral and, later, textual development of the classic Welsh and Irish written myths.

Sorry, that is like claiming the Jesuits had an impact on the Great Peacemaker, Ayenwatha and Sganyadái:yo (Hiawatha and Handsome Lake). Possible (because of timing), yes? Likely, not hardly! To so impact a culture (the Celts) as to change the oral history over a wide area (the British Isles were a wide area in terms of Iron Age cultures) in a relatively short period of time would be pretty much miraculous.

 

[Thomas]

Thomas, you are too Christian-centric to do fair research.

Oh, that's just silly. I did this bit of research because I was just about to have a pop at a Christian on a forum who said that Halloween was a Christian feast! And I've just come from another, where I've been arguing that St Augustine was wrong!

These traditions are thousands of years older than Christianity...

Are they? Well I am sure they are, but it's a guess, isn't it, and we have no idea what was actually celebrated. That's why I was hoping for actual evidence.

(might actually go back to the last ice-age).

Or might not ... probably not, as samhain is a harvest festival.

"Speaking of the ancient Celtic year Prof. Rhys observes ... I should argue that the last day of the year in the Irish story of Diarmait’s death meant the eve of November of All-Halloween, the night before the Irish Samhain ...

OK, but that dates from the 6th century AD! And the author does not distinguish between Celts and Gaels. Samhain is Gaelic, and my very brief wiki (and therefore questionable) research has stated that there is no Celtic equivalent. The Druids did not have a Samhain festival.

I assume samhain to be pre-Christian because it's mentioned by Christians chroniclers of pagan Ireland. I just can't find any evidence to say how old it is.

BTW I also believe that 'Gaelic Christianity' (not this ersatz 'celtic Christianity' which is about as authentic as the O'Mulligan pub in the high street) had a character much closer to nature than Roman Christianity — the tales are full of it, including the incorporation of Gaelic gods and goddesses — is it Brigit who steps out of pre-Christian Ireland and into the stable in Bethlehem to serve as midwife? I think that tale is awesome on so many levels.

On Celtic Christianity, I can find little distinction of form, etc, between that and Eastern Orthodoxy. The Irish were the last to forget their Greek as the new nations emerged in Europe, as my favoured Eriugena testifies.

 

[Aupmanyav]

On Celtic Christianity, I can find little distinction of form, etc, between that and Eastern Orthodoxy. The Irish were the last to forget their Greek as the new nations emerged in Europe, as my favoured Eriugena testifies.

I cannot make out much from your post as well as that of Radarmark. Celts were Celts and Greeks were Greeks. Both had their languages, myths, and traditions. And they existed before Christianity and most probably even before Moses and Torah. Though it is possible that both were from the Aryan stock. I will come back to you later on Celts, but just FYI, RigVeda gives the date as 10th of October according to Tilak (and even the latest additions to RigVeda predate Christianity by at least a thousand years).

 

[Aupmanyav]

Back after going through Wikipedia-Celts. Both of you would do well to go through that. Gauls and Gaels also were Celts. The Celtic expansion came much before the Romans and reached its maximum by 275 BC. Please note that they must have had a history and myths even before Urnfield Culture of Central Europe.

"The earliest archaeological culture that may justifiably be considered Proto-Celtic is the Late Bronze Age Urnfield culture of Central Europe, which flourished from around 1200 BC. Their fully Celtic descendants in central Europe were the people of the Iron Age Hallstatt culture (c. 800–450 BC) named for the rich grave finds in Hallstatt, Austria. By the later La Tène period (c. 450 BC up to the Roman conquest), this Celtic culture had expanded by diffusion or migration to the British Isles (Insular Celts), France and The Low Countries (Gauls), Bohemia, Poland and much of Central Europe, the Iberian Peninsula (Celtiberians, Celtici and Gallaeci) and northern Italy (Golaseccans and Cisalpine Gauls) and, following the Gallic invasion of the Balkans in 279 BC, as far east as central Anatolia (Galatians)."

Read details at Wikipedia - Celts.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Campaign History of the Roman Military - Wikipedia and Invasions of the Roman Empire

So the European history is Greeks, Celts, Romans. Christianity came the last (and stayed).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...y_during_late_antiquity_.28313.E2.80.93476.29

 

[carrots]

The Hindu Diwali (Divali, Deepavali) Festival known as the Festival of Lights occurs about the same time as Samhain. Diwali marks the Hindu New Year just as Samhain marks the Celtic New Year, could it be that Diwali and Samhain have a common root in antiquity?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, Aup. Thomas isn't saying that Christianity was there before the Greeks, Celts or Romans, he is specifically talking about Samhain and the lack of actual evidence surrounding its origin.

 

[Gordian Knot]

And that is a difficult problem for many of the Pagan holidays and myths. They were mostly oral traditions. When those religions were brought down, those who knew the words died off with little left behind.

It is always tricky when dealing with Pagan traditions. So much of it has been made up out of whole cloth by modern people who cherry picked what they desired their Pagan religion to be, rather than attempting to find out what evidence is left for what they were.

And as usual with religions, facts are irrelevant. The modern day Druids who have their annual pilgrimage to Stonehenge continue to consider it a sacred site to their religion even though it has been known for quite a long time that Druids had nothing whatsoever to do with Stonehenge. That the megalithic site predated the Druids by thousands of years!

 

[Thomas]

Gauls and Gaels also were Celts.

Yes, but they diverge.

It seems the Gaels claim, and dna studies would endorse this, that they came from Spain. More evidence: my dad, of Scots lineage, settled in Ireland, could pass for an Arab by the close of summer!

Please note that they must have had a history and myths even before Urnfield Culture of Central Europe.

Yes they must, but what history? What myth?

If I argued, in defence of Christianity, 'that they must have had', in the absence of evidence, you'd blow me out of the water, and rightly so!

I simply note that I'm being informed that samhain is a specifically Gaelic cultus, emerging from the societies that inhabited Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man. It seems it's not universally Celtic, and may well perhaps be uniquely Gaelic.

Remembrance of the dead, I think, is common to all cultures. The Gaels had it, I am in no doubt, long before Christ walked to Jerusalem. Christianity had it long before they came across samhain (it's there in Scripture). I don't accept, as many insist, that everything must trace back to one, single, ancient source.

How is all souls/all saints remembered today?
In the Catholic Church, it's a Holy Day of Obligation, when the communities gathers as a community to remember its dead.
In Scotland and the North of England they have 'guising' when people would dress up in fancy dress ...
Halloween, sadly, has lost that element of remembrance. Have to say it's another commercial import from the US.
If I were a pagan Gael I'd be no less p****d off about that as I can get about the commercialisation of Easter or Christmas.

In the UK, Father's Day and Mother's Day sees more people visiting the cemetery than Halloween.

Every year I ask 'can I hide and ...' but get a 'No!' before I've even finished (I'm usually brandishing a sword or something, so understandable). I know kids love going round, filling up with sweets. I'd bet they'd love it better if, every now and then, they got the living doo-dahs fritted out of 'em! I'm not saying I'm out to cause PTSD in children, but a good fright ... c'mon, who doesn't love that!?

We are so saccharine in the way we treat our kids today. Look at all this vampire crap aimed at adolescents ... suddenly we have vampires with looks, vampires who fall in love, sexy vampires ... vampires who disturb the dreams of kids, and not in the way vampires should!

So where do they go to get their frights? Visceral straight-to-DVD crap. No imagination.

I'm all for samhain, of making the corpse sit up at the wake like my dad and his mates did, now that's what I call a treat! Nowadays, we hide death from our kids (big mistake), possibly because we're frightened ourselves ...

... it's 6.00pm here ... someone at the door ...

This is yer ol' Uncle Tom, signing off ... whoo-hoo-hoo-ha-ha-ha!

 

[Thomas]

The modern day Druids who have their annual pilgrimage to Stonehenge continue to consider it a sacred site to their religion even though it has been known for quite a long time that Druids had nothing whatsoever to do with Stonehenge. That the megalithic site predated the Druids by thousands of years!

The only fact I know about Stonehenge is the traffic jam every bloomin' year on the way to Glastonbury ... and it's worse coming home!

Can't we move it, so we can widen the road?



I'M KIDDING!

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Hindu Diwali (Divali, Deepavali) Festival known as the Festival of Lights occurs about the same time as Samhain. Diwali marks the Hindu New Year just as Samhain marks the Celtic New Year, could it be that Diwali and Samhain have a common root in antiquity?

Deepavali (to use the correct name) and Nava-ratra (nine nights when we worship the Mother Goddess Durga) are harvest festivals. We celebrated Nav-ratra a few days ago and Diwali (the common usage in North India) is on 3rd of this month, i.e., a day after tomorrow. Tomorrow is known as Chhoti Diwali. In Nepal, Diwali is preceeded by Kukur Diwali (worshiping dogs), and Kag Diwali (leaving food for crows). It is followed by Govardhan (cow worship for increase in live-stock) two days later. Various parts of India may have their own traditions.

But Nav-ratra or Diwali are not Aryan festivals. They are indigenous festivals associated Durga and Rama, both of whom find no mention in the Vedas (Remember, in India, with time, Aryans merged with Hindus). These festivals are not connected with the Aryan sun myths as Samhain is.

"Now Sharad is the fourth season of the year, and the fortieth day of Sharad would mean seven months and ten days, or 220 days, after the first day of Vasanta or the spring, which commenced the year in old times. In short, the passage means that Indra’s fight with Shambera, or the annual conflict between light and darkness, commenced on the tenth day of the eighth month of the year, or on the 10th of October, if we take the year to have then commenced with March, the first month in the old Roman calendar. In I, 165, 6, Viṣhṇu, like a rounded wheel, is said to have set in swift motion his ninety racing steeds together with the four, and the reference is evidently to a year of four seasons of ninety days each. If we accept this division, each season would be of three months’ duration, and Sharad being the third (cf, X, 90, 6), the fortieth day of Sharad would still mean the 10th day of the eighth month of the year. The passage thus gives the very date of Indra’s annual fight with Vṛitra; and if it had been correctly understood, much useless speculation about the nature of Vṛitra’s legend would have been avoided."

More and interesting information at Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak — The Arctic Home in the Vedas — Chapter 9, Vedic Myths - Captive Waters, Page 262
For example: Sharad (winter) is derived from shṛi, to wither or waste away, same as Shrink.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, Aup. Thomas isn't saying that Christianity was there before the Greeks, Celts or Romans, he is specifically talking about Samhain and the lack of actual evidence surrounding its origin.

I understand, Tea. What I am trying to establish is that Aryan sun myths, which include Samhain, in Ireland or in India, or in areas between the two, are thousands of years older than Christianity (and, as everybody knows, have heavily influenced Christianity).

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, but they diverge: Yeah, sure, perhaps from Kazakh steppes. One branch going west to Greece, Italy and finally to Ireland; the other branch going to Central Asia, Iran and India (even to Cambodia - Kampuchia - Kamboja - an Aryan sister tribe, to which my family is supposed to belong. See Wikipedia for Kamboja, sage Upamanyu, and Vedic commentator Aupamanyava a thousand years before Jesus)

Yes they must, but what history? What myth?: Wanderings after being dislodged by the last ice-age from their homeland and sun myths which include Samhain, as every branch of the Aryan stock has.

I simply note that I'm being informed that samhain is a specifically Gaelic cultus, emerging from the societies that inhabited Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man. It seems it's not universally Celtic, and may well perhaps be uniquely Gaelic: I do not think that is true. All branches of the Aryan stock have myths about ascendence of darkness and disappearance of sun in winter, and its reappearance in Spring.

In the Catholic Church, it's a Holy Day of Obligation, when the communities gathers as a community to remember its dead: Sure, Hindus and Zoroastrians too have it. Why after autumnal equinox? Because it was beginning of darkness and the six months after that were known as 'Pitriyana' (the path of Ancestors - the days of cold and darkness), as against the period from vernal equinox to autumnal equinox, which was known as 'Devayana' (the path of Gods - happy days, when the sun was up in the sky - and if one were to believe the Vedas - Continuously - never setting). This year the 'Shraddha Paksha' (fortnight of remembrance of ancestors) was from 19th September to 4th October. We do not forget anything.