The Perennial Philosophy

[Nick the Pilot]

Tad,

I think the prohibition to putting in links is only for people who have made less than 10 posts, so once you have made 10 posts, you can start putting links in your posts. (But we need Brian to confirm this for us.)

 

[Tadashi]

Thanks ACOT, for your help, but probably Brian is too busy now...?

Nick, I noticed that prohibition, so I had waited till I had accumulated ten posts... perhaps they have changed the rule...??

Anyway, I'll repost it (without the links) and see if it'll appear...


Tad

 

[Tadashi]

Nick-san,

Wow, what are the chances! Though I'm currently invested in learning Christianity since Jesus' teachings strongly speak to me, I was hoping to eventually meet someone who knows about Theosophy (which I've only scratched the surface but it made very good sense to me), and I found you already! And you know about Japan and its culture... how perfect is that!

Actually, I think there is some truth to this idea. Many major religions teach of a fiery hell. Many major religions teach of heaven above and hell below. I believe in the idea that, after we die, we ‘float’ on earth in our astral bodies. Astral bodies have specific gravity, and float up or down depending on their specific gravity. Spiritual astral bodies float up and horrible astral bodies float down (because horrible astral bodies are composed of heavier particles than spiritual astral bodies). On the astral plane, there are no physical limitations, and astral bodies can travel down into the earth if they want to. People with horrible astral bodies have heavy astral bodies, so their specific gravity takes them down to a level underground, and the physical limitations of going underground do not stop astral bodies from entering the earth. When horrible astral bodies drift down into the earth, they encounter hot lava and magma. This is one reason why hell is said to be a hot place. The idea of heaven above and a hot, terrible hell below is correct.

So, hell could really be a fiery place...? Now I'm sad... but if it's temporary and no souls get burned for eternity, then we may have to accept harsh discipline for atrocious crimes... but God will always save those souls, right? If they sincerely repent...

It is. This brings up the idea of reincarnation. My Japanese ability is surprising good. There is no explanation for it. A very good psychic once told me that I reincarnated in Japan as a Japanese person. The psychic person said that my Japanese language today is good because I didn’t learn Japanese, it was more that I ‘remembered’ it from this previous reincarnation.

I often wonder the same thing! Henry Ford said "Genius is experience. Some think to seem that it is a gift or talent, but it is the fruit of long experience in many lives." I was always drawn to western culture and didn't care much about my own eastern culture... I wonder if I was an American in my former life? I also feel especially strong affection to cats (though I love all animals), I wonder if I was a cat once? Does Theosophy hold the idea of animals reincarnating into humans or vice versa, like Buddhism does?

I wrote in my previous post:
The teaching that you have to be a believer to go to heaven. (What will happen to my Japanese friends and family? Most of them say they're agnostic, but they're genuinely good people! But Pope Francis said otherwise, so I'm hopeful... but the Church corrected his statement, which confuses me... but anyhow, I love Pope Francis!)

I must clarify... I realize now my above statement was hastily/badly written thus came out confusing...

Pope Francis said, "everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists."(*1) And then later, a Vatican spokesman corrected what the Pope really meant... (*2)

I sense a bit of political maneuvering going on by the Church (since they received backlash from Christians for the Pope's insinuating nonbelievers can go to heaven)... I mean, if the Pope thought his remarks were misunderstood, why didn't he clarify it himself? I'd like to believe Pope Francis is right and the Church is wrong for correcting him.

The links I attempted to post were the below articles from Huffington Post. If you're interested in reading, you can find them by copying & pasting the titles below into a search engine.

(*1) Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics
(*2) Vatican Clarifies Pope's 'Atheist' Remarks [CORRECTED]

I see heaven as a resting place between reincarnations. But I see us going to nirvana (not to heaven) after we finish our last reincarnation. I believe in both heaven and nirvana, and I don’t see any conflict between the two ideas. Heaven will be a place of rest. Nirvana will be a place of great activity.

wow... this is a refreshingly interesting idea that I never thought of... Is this from Theosophy teachings?

In my own current understanding, Heaven and Nirvana are the same place where God (the supreme consciousness that is the source of love and goodness) resides, and when we go to heaven, our souls will be absorbed into it (=become one with God). If all of our souls become one with God, it means we merge and become one with others’ souls too, which means we are all ultimately just one, the very same spiritual entity, therefore there won’t be such a thing as “self”, therefore becoming “selfless” is the process of our souls realizing that we are ONE...

Tad

 

[Tadashi]

Thank you Thomas, again for the history lesson I needed... So, it's not Luther who had espoused biblical inerrancy... (I wonder if my Lutheran friends know that...) So, the idea is a rather recent invention, and not authentic, is what I feel...

Yes. But we have to acknowledge there are times when doctrines cannot be affirmed by reason alone. The Virgin Birth and The Resurrection are 'unreasonable', 'illogical' and 'irrational'. So is reincarnation, really — it's a question of faith, not empirical evidence ... and this is what the text is getting at.
When I broke with the Catholic Church as a young man, I can remember arguing with my parents that Our Lord was 'a wise teacher' and that was all. The rest was mythological nonsense. That was me trusting my own powers of reasoning ... we are not infallible.

Yes, you trusted your own power of reasoning against that of someone else (e.g. the early church Fathers who were also humans thus not infallible), there's nothing wrong with that. And it's again, your own power of reasoning that brought you back to Catholicism, so it has served you well, you just needed that journey

I guess we all go through the phase of 'doubt' sooner or later, if one is serious enough with his pursuit. I question the people who were born into Christianity and never questioned their faith... I tend to be more interested in the people who once broke off (like you), or former atheists turned religious (Francis Collins, Alister McGrath, Lee Strobel...).

I may come to the same conclusion as yours (Tradition) after long years of searching, or get even more convinced with my current views. Who knows? (only God does.) But I will not relinquish my faith in God or my God-given ability to reason, I'll go wherever they may take me, that's me trusting His guidance with all my heart. If God thinks I need a detour, then I need a detour.

I don't mean to pile on, 'cause I know you guys have apologized enough, but if I may borrow the words from Galileo, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended for us to forego their use."

Well, I wouldn't go that far, but I hope I don't upset you too much when I say I have a very low opinion of the 'Jesus Seminar' and their 'Quest for the Historical Jesus'. It's the third incarnation of the Quest, and like it's predecessors, it rejects the idea of the transcendent and the supernatural.

I realize this notion bothers a lot of believers, but for me, Jesus being God himself (the Trinity) or not, is unimportant.

Miracles are not the primary reason I believe in Jesus. Jesus reached out to the most hapless and ostracized people and healed them and gave them hope. He dedicated and gave his life for helping the weak and unfortunate. I believe in him because of all the humanity he embodied. If one believes in him because of his performance of miracles, isn't the belief based on the 'might' he's had, and not 'love' he's shown?

I'd think Satan has the almost equally strong supernatural ability too. But what Satan can't ever have is the ability to 'love'. Satan is nowhere near capable of saying 'turn the other cheek', 'love your enemies' or 'forgive them for they know not what they do'... Satan is all about himself, his pride and vendetta, he would never ever be able to die on a cross for others. Jesus was all about others. Jesus had the most powerful love for others. He is one glaring proof of God's existence, an incarnation of God's infinite love. God has shown us in Jesus how godly one can become if he followed God with all his heart. This is where I place my faith in, not the miracle parts.

(Note: I said Satan, but I don't know if I believe it as an actual being. I interpret it more like a source of negative energy that steers us wrong and causes evil.)

In a way, it's the opposite of the inerrant fundamentalism. Inerrancy says the Bible is true, because it's the Word of God. The Seminar says it's the words of men and nothing more, because they can't believe in revelation or inspiration. It's Christ according to an empirical and basically materialist credibility.

I'm not into Jesus Seminar stuff either (though I realize Borg was a member). Actually Ehrman and Craig Evans, in one of their debates, both dismissed the reliability of the Seminar. Ehrman flatly said "I don't think they know what they're doing," or to that effect.

And, "it's the opposite of the inerrant fundamentalism" is pretty much what I myself said when I got into an argument with some militant atheists on a different forum... We don't have enough historical facts whether to prove or disprove the credibility of the Bible. Deciding that it's incredible simply because of the lack of verifiable facts is equally a folly. I give Ehrman a bit of credit for remaining agnostic, instead of going all the way to the other extreme.

... See? I can be quite dismissive, if not belligerent. But I can explain myself if you want. N.T. Wright, an Anglican theologian whom I respect for his insight (something I find the JS lacks), has spoken eloquently against it. You can read some of it here. (I find Wright's idea of Paul's conversion breath-taking, so I am sold on him.)

Oh, no, I don't think you're dismissive or belligerent at all. You are just stating what you believe, and that's what I want to hear, "an honest opinion." If I only talked to people who are likeminded, there will be no progress on my faith journey. It is entirely up to me if I get convinced by your beliefs or not. And I don't feel any pressure from you that I have to believe in 'your way', though I'm a bit intimidated by the level of your knowledge! But that's good, the reason I joined here is to get informed and educated by religiously experienced people like yourself, for free! (I feel like I have to pay you a tutoring fee, but you'll be rewarded for your good works when you go to heaven. So don't charge me.)

Actually the number of friends I can seriously debate about Christianity is limited though I'm surrounded by Christians... because many of them are too polite and I don't want to offend them by pushing my heretic views and risk the relationship... so I tend to sugarcoat my arguments and I'm sure they do the same. So, Thomas, you're giving me exactly what I want!

I skimmed through the article you gave me and I don't disagree with much of what N.T.Wright said. (I especially liked the three-story house analogy.) I was actually thinking of reading his books since leaning that he co-authored a book with Borg. Which one of his books reflects his idea of Paul's conversion as you mentioned? 'cause I'm extremely intrigued with how a Christian persecuting Pharisee did a complete 180 and gave his life for Christ. I'm thinking Paul's conversion can attest to Jesus' divinity...


I'll give you my 'candid' opinion of my current views on the Bible and Jesus...

I'm not a creationist in the authentic sense, I support the evolution theory. God created the very first living organism that'd evolve in the way just as intended (I don't buy the Adam&Eve story or Noah picking two of each animal, though I'm agnostic on the flood itself).

I don't believe the Red Sea being split open by Moses. I don't even believe the ten commandments were carved into stone by God's power. If that was really the case, how could Moses have smashed them no matter how angry he got at his people!? I mean, it's 'the only physical thing' we've ever received from God!! Didn't Moses of all people know better to understand the gravity of the sacredness and the significant importance of it!?
(If any Jewish person is reading this, I apologize, but I mean no offense nor disrespect, I'm just being completely honest.)

Also I don't know if I believe the Virgin Birth or Jesus multiplying enough bread/fish for thousands of people, that sort of thing. (But he may have had healing power...)

The only miracle I'm inclined to believe is resurrection. But not as a physical event, but as visions. My theory (so far) is, after his death, Jesus' spirit merged into God (became one with God) and used telepathy to communicate to people on earth from above. If his telepathic power caused over five hundred people to see the image of Jesus, that is indeed a miracle and he is indeed divine, and that explains the Cambrian explosion of Christianity after his death.

Tad

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Tad,
　
You said,
　
"… no souls get burned for eternity…"
　
--> Correct. The ‘burning’ is not a physical burning but an emotional unhappiness and emotional suffering. And it is not eternal, it is temporary, just like the Bible originally said.
　
"…but God will always save those souls, right? If they sincerely repent..."
　
--> The concept of repenting, as it is understood in Christianity, is not part of Theosophy, most forms of Buddhism, or Hinduism. Once the bad karma is burned off, the person is ready to move to a higher level. Yes, a person must ‘repent’, but then they must burn off the bad karma. In my belief system, the repenting is not important, while the burning off of the bad karma is very important.
　
Let me explain the idea of being saved, according to my belief system. We are forced to reincarnate. Most people do not want to reincarnate but they must reincarnate. However, once they achieve enlightenment (悟り) , they do not have to reincarnate any more. Once we achieve enlightenment, we are ‘saved’ from being forced to reincarnate again. But the idea here is that we save ourselves, we are not saved by God. If you like the idea that God will save you (that you do not save yourself through your own effort), then you need to continue to be a Christian.
　
"Genius is experience. Some think to seem that it is a gift or talent, but it is the fruit of long experience in many lives."

--> Yes, it takes many lives. It cannot be done in one life.
　
"I was always drawn to western culture and didn't care much about my own eastern culture... I wonder if I was an American in my former life?"
　
--> Of course! It's obvious that you were American in a former life, just as I was Japanese in a former life. There is no other explanation that makes sense. Welcome back to America!

Your English is very good. The only way to explain it is that you have 'remembered' your English from a previous incarnation, just like how I have 'remembered' my Japanese from a previous incarnation. There is no other explanation.
　
"I wonder if I was a cat once? Does Theosophy hold the idea of animals reincarnating into humans or vice versa, like Buddhism does?"
　
--> No. People cannot reincarnate as animals.
　
"…everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists."
　
--> I do not believe such an idea.
　
"I sense a bit of political maneuvering going on by the Church…"
　
--> I sense a LOT of political maneuvering going on by the Church. Sorry, but I do not have a good opinion of the Catholic Church.
　
"…the Pope's insinuating nonbelievers can go to heaven…"
　
--> The Pope is correct, but this idea is very much against traditional Catholic teaching.
　
"…I mean, if the Pope thought his remarks were misunderstood, why didn't he clarify it himself?"
　
--> He didn't. He doesn't need to. He won't. The Pope is fighting a huge battle against a very oppressive, huge political machine in the Vatican. I’m afraid he will eventually lose this battle. (Do you agree?)
　
"I'd like to believe Pope Francis is right and the Church is wrong for correcting him."
　
--> He is. They are. Do you believe in the Pope’s infallibility, like Catholicism teaches?
　
"Is this from Theosophy teachings?"
　
--> Yes, it is.
　
"…Heaven and Nirvana are the same place…"
　
--> There is no need for heaven and nirvana to be the same place. Why should they be? But Christians think they are the same. But nirvana is NOT a Christian idea, and Christians do not believe in nirvana. (But Christians do not believe in reincarnation, so they have no need to believe in nirvana.) There is NO similarity between heaven and nirvana.
　
"…when we go to heaven, our souls will be absorbed into it…"
　
--> Nirvana is not the highest form of consciousness possible. It is only the next level after the human level. There are many, many forms of consciousness higher than nirvana.
　
"…there won’t be such a thing as "self", therefore becoming "selfless" is the process of our souls realizing that we are ONE..."
　
--> This will happen on the nirvanic level, all separateness between us will disappear, but we will still maintain our individuality. Fascinating, isn’t it?

"I was hoping to eventually meet someone who knows about Theosophy..."

--> Perhaps you were a Theosophist in a previous lifetime?

 

[donnann]

Tad,
　
You said,
　
"… no souls get burned for eternity…"
　
--> Correct. The ‘burning’ is not a physical burning but an emotional unhappiness and emotional suffering. And it is not eternal, it is temporary, just like the Bible originally said.
　
"…but God will always save those souls, right? If they sincerely repent..."
　
--> The concept of repenting, as it is understood in Christianity, is not part of Theosophy, most forms of Buddhism, or Hinduism. Once the bad karma is burned off, the person is ready to move to a higher level. Yes, a person must ‘repent’, but then they must burn off the bad karma. In my belief system, the repenting is not important, while the burning off of the bad karma is very important.
　
Let me explain the idea of being saved, according to my belief system. We are forced to reincarnate. Most people do not want to reincarnate but they must reincarnate. However, once they achieve enlightenment (悟り) , they do not have to reincarnate any more. Once we achieve enlightenment, we are ‘saved’ from being forced to reincarnate again. But the idea here is that we save ourselves, we are not saved by God. If you like the idea that God will save you (that you do not save yourself through your own effort), then you need to continue to be a Christian.
　
"Genius is experience. Some think to seem that it is a gift or talent, but it is the fruit of long experience in many lives."

--> Yes, it takes many lives. It cannot be done in one life.
　
"I was always drawn to western culture and didn't care much about my own eastern culture... I wonder if I was an American in my former life?"
　
--> Of course! It's obvious that you were American in a former life, just as I was Japanese in a former life. There is no other explanation that makes sense. Welcome back to America!

Your English is very good. The only way to explain it is that you have 'remembered' your English from a previous incarnation, just like how I have 'remembered' my Japanese from a previous incarnation. There is no other explanation.
　
"I wonder if I was a cat once? Does Theosophy hold the idea of animals reincarnating into humans or vice versa, like Buddhism does?"
　
--> No. People cannot reincarnate as animals.
　
"…everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists."
　
--> I do not believe such an idea.
　
"I sense a bit of political maneuvering going on by the Church…"
　
--> I sense a LOT of political maneuvering going on by the Church. Sorry, but I do not have a good opinion of the Catholic Church.
　
"…the Pope's insinuating nonbelievers can go to heaven…"
　
--> The Pope is correct, but this idea is very much against traditional Catholic teaching.
　
"…I mean, if the Pope thought his remarks were misunderstood, why didn't he clarify it himself?"
　
--> He didn't. He doesn't need to. He won't. The Pope is fighting a huge battle against a very oppressive, huge political machine in the Vatican. I’m afraid he will eventually lose this battle. (Do you agree?)
　
"I'd like to believe Pope Francis is right and the Church is wrong for correcting him."
　
--> He is. They are. Do you believe in the Pope’s infallibility, like Catholicism teaches?
　
"Is this from Theosophy teachings?"
　
--> Yes, it is.
　
"…Heaven and Nirvana are the same place…"
　
--> There is no need for heaven and nirvana to be the same place. Why should they be? But Christians think they are the same. But nirvana is NOT a Christian idea, and Christians do not believe in nirvana. (But Christians do not believe in reincarnation, so they have no need to believe in nirvana.) There is NO similarity between heaven and nirvana.
　
"…when we go to heaven, our souls will be absorbed into it…"
　
--> Nirvana is not the highest form of consciousness possible. It is only the next level after the human level. There are many, many forms of consciousness higher than nirvana.
　
"…there won’t be such a thing as "self", therefore becoming "selfless" is the process of our souls realizing that we are ONE..."
　
--> This will happen on the nirvanic level, all separateness between us will disappear, but we will still maintain our individuality. Fascinating, isn’t it?

"I was hoping to eventually meet someone who knows about Theosophy..."

--> Perhaps you were a Theosophist in a previous lifetime?

I personally have no previous incarnation. This is the first time I have ever been on earth and I don't ever want to come back.

 

[Tadashi]

The concept of repenting, as it is understood in Christianity, is not part of Theosophy, most forms of Buddhism, or Hinduism. Once the bad karma is burned off, the person is ready to move to a higher level. Yes, a person must ‘repent’, but then they must burn off the bad karma. In my belief system, the repenting is not important, while the burning off of the bad karma is very important.
　
Let me explain the idea of being saved, according to my belief system. We are forced to reincarnate. Most people do not want to reincarnate but they must reincarnate. However, once they achieve enlightenment (悟り) , they do not have to reincarnate any more. Once we achieve enlightenment, we are ‘saved’ from being forced to reincarnate again. But the idea here is that we save ourselves, we are not saved by God. If you like the idea that God will save you (that you do not save yourself through your own effort), then you need to continue to be a Christian.

I'm actually with you on that, it is NOT like just saying "I'm sorry God, please forgive me" and bam! you're saved. God can see through you if you're truly repentant or not, there's no fooling God. I get that we have to WORK hard to achieve 'satori', it only makes sense that we have to work very hard to attain anything of worth. Jesus also said “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt.7:21) So, in this sense, we have to save ourselves through our own effort of doing God's work (helping others and all)... That is my understanding.

BTW, how do you burn off the bad karma..., what is the best way to do it??
　

The Pope is fighting a huge battle against a very oppressive, huge political machine in the Vatican. I’m afraid he will eventually lose this battle.

Yes, I agree. I'm sincerely hoping and cheering hard that his constant effort will gradually open the way... I hear Jesuits are fighters. I'd like to believe the righteous will always receive God's glory.
　

He is. They are. Do you believe in the Pope’s infallibility, like Catholicism teaches?

No. All human beings are fallible. But that does not mean we can't revere and admire someone. I admire Pope Francis for launching a battle. The result (if he wins or not) is less important to me than the fact that he's got courage.
　

There is no need for heaven and nirvana to be the same place. Why should they be? But Christians think they are the same. But nirvana is NOT a Christian idea, and Christians do not believe in nirvana. (But Christians do not believe in reincarnation, so they have no need to believe in nirvana.) There is NO similarity between heaven and nirvana.
　　
Nirvana is not the highest form of consciousness possible. It is only the next level after the human level. There are many, many forms of consciousness higher than nirvana.
　
This will happen on the nirvanic level, all separateness between us will disappear, but we will still maintain our individuality. Fascinating, isn’t it?

I am indeed very intrigued with this idea... Is there an article or a Theosophy site that explains this concept of heaven and nirvana in depth?

Perhaps you were a Theosophist in a previous lifetime?

Yeah, could be!! But I'm also very into Jesus, so I was a Christian in one of my former lives too? And I hugely admire Dalai Lama and Gandhi too, so I was also a Buddhist and a Hindu once? How many times do we usually reincarnate, do you know? (or is it totally depending on the person...)

Oh, Have you ever contacted Japanese Theosophists when you were in Japan?

Tad

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

It's obvious that you were American in a former life, just as I was Japanese in a former life. There is no other explanation that makes sense.

The sentence doesn't invoke a lot of critical thinking though.

I'll give you my 'candid' opinion of my current views on the Bible and Jesus...

I'm not a creationist in the authentic sense, I support the evolution theory. God created the very first living organism that'd evolve in the way just as intended (I don't buy the Adam&Eve story or Noah picking two of each animal, though I'm agnostic on the flood itself).

I don't believe the Red Sea being split open by Moses. I don't even believe the ten commandments were carved into stone by God's power. If that was really the case, how could Moses have smashed them no matter how angry he got at his people!? I mean, it's 'the only physical thing' we've ever received from God!! Didn't Moses of all people know better to understand the gravity of the sacredness and the significant importance of it!?
(If any Jewish person is reading this, I apologize, but I mean no offense nor disrespect, I'm just being completely honest.)

Also I don't know if I believe the Virgin Birth or Jesus multiplying enough bread/fish for thousands of people, that sort of thing. (But he may have had healing power...)

The only miracle I'm inclined to believe is resurrection. But not as a physical event, but as visions. My theory (so far) is, after his death, Jesus' spirit merged into God (became one with God) and used telepathy to communicate to people on earth from above. If his telepathic power caused over five hundred people to see the image of Jesus, that is indeed a miracle and he is indeed divine, and that explains the Cambrian explosion of Christianity after his death.

Since I wasn't there I can't say what happened or didn't happen, but I doubt the point is that we have to make up our mind about it. That might even get in the way. How would believing that the Red Sea split change anything? How is making up your mind that it didn't change things? (Honest question)

I hope you don't skip through those sections, I think they hold some good stuff for Christians. But I understand that it's tricky knowing how to read them, it might take a while to get them. Hope your patient.

I'm actually with you on that, it is NOT like just saying "I'm sorry God, please forgive me" and bam! you're saved. God can see through you if you're truly repentant or not, there's no fooling God. I get that we have to WORK hard to achieve 'satori', it only makes sense that we have to work very hard to attain anything of worth. Jesus also said “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt.7:21) So, in this sense, we have to save ourselves through our own effort of doing God's work (helping others and all)... That is my understanding.

I don't think the point is 'saying' you're sorry, but being sorry. Realising your error happens when you're ready for that realisation. This is a thing Nick and I strongly disagree with each other.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Tad,

You asked,
　
"…how do you burn off the bad karma..., what is the best way to do it?? "
　
--> The only way to burn it off is to burn it off. You can ask "God" to have you burn it off more quickly. But this means your life will become more difficult. Are you ready for this?
　
"Do you believe in the Pope’s infallibility, like Catholicism teaches? --> No. All human beings are fallible."
　
--> Are you Catholic, even though you are rejecting Catholic dogma?
　
"Is there an article or a Theosophy site that explains this concept of heaven and nirvana in depth?"
　
--> Let me look around and see what I can find.
　
"…I was a Christian in one of my former lives too? And I hugely admire Dalai Lama and Gandhi too, so I was also a Buddhist and a Hindu once?"
　
--> It’s very possible. I once had a reincarnation as a Buddhist monk in Tibet. You probably also were a Buddhist monk in Tibet, because it is the only way to explain your keen interest in all of this.

I remember when I visited the large statue of Buddha in Kamakura, Japan. I had a feeling of, "Home at last!" This confirmed for me that I have been a Buddhist monk in previous lifetimes.
　
"How many times do we usually reincarnate, do you know?"
　
--> People disagree on the number, but we have hundreds of reincarnations. We travel around, sometimes being a Christian, sometimes being a Buddhist, sometimes being a Hindu, etc. This makes us more well rounded. (It is a bad idea to have all reincarnations only as a Christian, a Buddhist, etc.)
　
"Have you ever contacted Japanese Theosophists when you were in Japan?"
　
--> Yes, I have. Here are two groups in Japan:

The Theosophical Society in Japan
Nippon Lodge
2-5-25 Tozukahigashi Kawaguchi-shi
Saitama-ken 333-0802
Japan
Tel. No.: (+81) -48-036-5457
Mobile: + 81-90-5784-1967
Secretary: Mr. Taichi Yamaguchi
Email address: hw117806@yk2.so-net.ne.jp
President: Mr. Naotsugu Takahashi
4-12-11 Naka-machi
Nishi Tokyo-shi, Tokyo
202-0013 Japan
Tel. & Fax No.: 81-424-23-8556
Website: http://www.theosophyjp.net

Osaka Lodge
Please send correspondence for this lodge to
Mr Taichi Yamaguchi at Nippon Lodge who will telephone to Mr Suzuki.
Email address: tsjp@hte.highway.ne.jp
President: Mr. Toshinobu Suzuki
526-22 Minami-ike
Amida-cho
Takasago-shi
Hyogo-ken
Japan 676-0824

 

[Tadashi]

Since I wasn't there I can't say what happened or didn't happen, but I doubt the point is that we have to make up our mind about it. That might even get in the way. How would believing that the Red Sea split change anything? How is making up your mind that it didn't change things? (Honest question)

You're right, the miracle parts are not important, what's important is what those stories are trying to tell us deep within. But what I worry about is that there are some Christians who take it literally and that type of mentality can interfere with cultivating critical thinking... that's why I'm against biblical inerrancy.


Also, I don't completely deny the possibility that creationists might actually be right, that humans were humans from the very beginning (that we didn't evolve from apes). I just feel this is highly unlikely though... But, either way, we were made by God, that's what really matters.

I hope you don't skip through those sections, I think they hold some good stuff for Christians. But I understand that it's tricky knowing how to read them, it might take a while to get them. Hope your patient.

I admit, I haven't read the old testament myself yet. So I may be doing it a great injustice dismissing it by the things I hear from others (e.g. articles, debates, movies, etc.) I tend to spend more time reading books by theologians, historians and scholars or watching debates. I honestly don't know if I'd understand OT even if I read it myself. I may always have to rely on someone else's interpretation.


I realize I had criticized the Bible a lot in my last post. But I do not mean to diminish the importance of the books, on the contrary, I value the Bible to be one of the most important documents humans have ever had. I believe the Bible 'contains' the Word of God. I believe there have been people who were very in tune with the Holy Spirit and heard His messages (telepathically), received visions and their experiences are recorded in the Bible.


But my view is that even the people who were called prophets “may not have been always perfect” in conveying God’s messages, because they were humans, thus fallible, as we all are. So, pure imagination or man-made cultural/tribal values, something God didn’t really intend, may have been added to the books by the human writers...


But I give OT one big credit, the way it captures the concept of 'the big bang' millenniums before our science had advanced enough to figure out the beginning of the universe. It may very well God somehow told it to our ancient ancestors...??

I don't think the point is 'saying' you're sorry, but being sorry. Realising your error happens when you're ready for that realisation. This is a thing Nick and I strongly disagree with each other.

I agree. Just saying 'sorry' without meaning it is no use. And yes, we can only truly learn from the mistakes we make. (Let's just hope we don't repeat the same mistake over and over...)

BTW, may I ask what your faith/beliefs are? You said in one of your previous posts, "I'm not part of any religion, and I don't believe in anything particular."...
But you go to church, right? Are you an Unitarian Universalist by any chance?

Tad

 

[Tadashi]

The only way to burn it off is to burn it off. You can ask "God" to have you burn it off more quickly. But this means your life will become more difficult. Are you ready for this?

Am I ready for it?? ...suddenly I feel like chickening out... But you mean, we can "ask" God to speed up the process (if we can take the hardship) and He'll grant our request? So, the harder the life you lead, the closer to nirvana?
　

Are you Catholic, even though you are rejecting Catholic dogma?

No. I'm not a Catholic, nor do I belong to any particular sect. Some conservative Christians may think I'm not even a Christian.

I first thought I may be a Deist, but I couldn't (or didn't want to) believe in a non-interventionist god. When I was reading Thomas Jefferson's religious views, I discovered the concept "Christian Deism" and then "Theistic Rationalism."

--- from wikipedia ---

Theistic Rationalists believe natural religion, Christianity, and rationalism typically coexist compatibly, with rational thought balancing the conflicts between the first two aspects. They often assert that the primary role of a person’s religion should be to bolster morality, a fixture of daily life. Theistic Rationalists believe that God plays an active role in human life, rendering prayer effective. They accept parts of the Bible as divinely inspired, using reason as their criterion for what to accept or reject. Their belief that God intervenes in human affairs and their approving attitude toward parts of the Bible distinguish Theistic Rationalists from Deists.
　

It’s very possible. I once had a reincarnation as a Buddhist monk in Tibet. You probably also were a Buddhist monk in Tibet, because it is the only way to explain your keen interest in all of this.

I remember when I visited the large statue of Buddha in Kamakura, Japan. I had a feeling of, "Home at last!" This confirmed for me that I have been a Buddhist monk in previous lifetimes.

How fascinating! How did you find out about being a monk in Tibet? Is it from a psychic reading? or you went there too and felt the same 'home' feeling?
　　

People disagree on the number, but we have hundreds of reincarnations. We travel around, sometimes being a Christian, sometimes being a Buddhist, sometimes being a Hindu, etc. This makes us more well rounded. (It is a bad idea to have all reincarnations only as a Christian, a Buddhist, etc.)

Yes, this is my idea of the meaning of reincarnation... Experiencing many different lives in many different situations can really contribute to the maturity of our souls to understand so many things in the world that we cannot cover with just one lifetime.

Yes, I have. Here are two groups in Japan:

Thank you for the contact info. So, were you involved in the Theosophy activities in Japan? When and how did you become a Theosophist? Did it happen in Japan? Did you formerly practiced any other religions?

Tad

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

BTW, may I ask what your faith/beliefs are? You said in one of your previous posts, "I'm not part of any religion, and I don't believe in anything particular."...
But you go to church, right? Are you an Unitarian Universalist by any chance?

I'm sorry for misleading you, it wasn't my intent. No I don't believe in god, and I never go to church. To really drive the point; I don't believe in ghosts, aliens, psychics or even Big Foot! If you want to put a label on me, which I try hard to avoid, it's agnostic. I might even be most hard-lined agnostic I have met, not denying the existence of anything out of principle, while still only relying on my perceptual and emotional experience. (defining my belief is still a work in progress, give me some constructive feedback, won't you)

So in this new light you might not want to listen to me going on about the church and bible. The advice I have given is in no way based on personal experience but in reading and discussion the fine people of this forum for a while. So again, I'm sorry for the confusion.

I'll continue giving you my, personal, opinion below and you can ask me things you think I could give a relevant answer to.

You're right, the miracle parts are not important

I wouldn't go so far as to say that isn't important, it might be. I guess you should keep an open mind when discussion these things with the church you are interested in.

Also, I don't completely deny the possibility that creationists might actually be right, that humans were humans from the very beginning (that we didn't evolve from apes). I just feel this is highly unlikely though... But, either way, we were made by God, that's what really matters.

I would advice that you make up your mind about whether evolution is a good theory or not after studying evolution. And then making up your mind about creationism after studying creationism. I think they are very different fields and should be treated as such.

I admit, I haven't read the old testament myself yet...

Again, you should listen to a more experienced person in this regard. I'm aware that I over stepped here. I'm sure you're doing a good job!

I don't think the point is 'saying' you're sorry, but being sorry. Realising your error happens when you're ready for that realisation. This is a thing Nick and I strongly disagree with each other.

I agree. Just saying 'sorry' without meaning it is no use. And yes, we can only truly learn from the mistakes we make. (Let's just hope we don't repeat the same mistake over and over...)

I want to clarify here. I don't believe that people need to, necessarily, make amens or receive punishment for their mistakes. Not in the context of law or, if there is one, a divine order.

Last thing: when trying to understand a religion, I think it is important to understand every parable, concept and every word in the context of that religion. Asking two Christians to define 'Sin' may give you two different answers, and keeping this in mind brings you closer to understanding a religion in itself. Here, again, Nick and I might be in disagreement. He might, perhaps, say that all religions are connected and they all speak of the same things. You might want to ask him about it.

 

[Tadashi]

I'm sorry for misleading you, it wasn't my intent. No I don't believe in god, and I never go to church. To really drive the point; I don't believe in ghosts, aliens, psychics or even Big Foot! If you want to put a label on me, which I try hard to avoid, it's agnostic. I might even be most hard-lined agnostic I have met, not denying the existence of anything out of principle, while still only relying on my perceptual and emotional experience. (defining my belief is still a work in progress, give me some constructive feedback, won't you)

WHAT?!? You don't believe in Big Foot???!!! I've never met anyone who doesn't!!! (...kidding )
Oh, now I see... when you said "our own church of Sweden just got its first female Archbishop..." you meant as 'your country' and not 'your church'... Sorry I jumped the gun.
Why is 'agnostic' a bad label? I had no problem saying it when I was one... 'A hard-lined agnostic'... never heard of that term, interesting!

So in this new light you might not want to listen to me going on about the church and bible. The advice I have given is in no way based on personal experience but in reading and discussion the fine people of this forum for a while. So again, I'm sorry for the confusion.
I'll continue giving you my, personal, opinion below and you can ask me things you think I could give a relevant answer to.

Yes, I am still interested in your input very much. Actually I value nonbelievers opinions a lot, you have totally different perspectives which I can't get from my believer friends.

But you're at least interested in religions/spirituality... otherwise, you wouldn't be here, would you? So, who knows what'll happen, what happened to me may happen to you... and actually, former agnostics/atheists often make strong believers if they come to the realization of God. No zealot like a convert, you know? Like C.S.Lewis, he described his conversion, "kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance to escape." And then, he became one of the most prominent Christian apologists.

This may sound strange to you, but not believing in God, doesn't mean you're not following God. Oxymoron? I know, how can you follow something you don't believe to exist, right?

To me, you're just not cognizant of His presence, and I don't mind that at all. Because all I care is that people be genuinely good and follow their conscience no matter what kind of label (atheist, Christian, Buddhist, etc.) they give to themselves. "A label a human puts on him/herself" has no bearing on whom God sees as His followers, imho.

If anyone does a genuine good deed, God knows that person got His message right (either consciously or subliminally, which He cares little in my view), thus He considers that person His follower, whether you like it or not! So, if you are a good person, as you seem very well to be, you are going to go to heaven, whether you like it or not! ...and that's my 'personal' opinion, so you can take it or leave it.

And you're right, every religious person has different persuasions and beliefs, as they should. So I'm trying to talk to as many people as I can through this and other forums.

I look forward to having more conversations with you.

Tad

 

[Aupmanyav]

".. perception of divine (?) reality, ..

Tadashi, what is 'divine' reality as compared to just simple word - reality?

 

[Tadashi]

Hi Thomas,

I was re-reading your last post and realized that when I made the below comment, I think you may have taken what I called 'irrationality' as believing in supernatural/paranormal events....

I feel many Protestants embrace the notion of inerrancy, and sometimes it is difficult to show them what I feel to be an 'irrationality' in their arguments, that they insist even if you don't understand what the Bible says, it's the Word of God, so you trust it, and that requires complete faith... (to me that's blind faith...)

I'm actually not so concerned about Christians believing in the miracles (the Virgin Birth, Jesus walking on water, reviving Lazarus, etc., even though I may not believe them). But I believe in reincarnation, and as you pointed out, which is a totally unscientific notion to many, so who am I to judge? In this aspect, I agree with you that it's a question of faith, not empirical evidence.

But what I actually meant by 'irrationality' and what I feel to be dangerous is when defending the Bible requires going against one's conscience. For example, this is what a notable Christian apologist, William Lane Craig said... (I used to like him and I still respect him, but my jaw dropped when I heard this...)

According to the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament), when God called forth his people out of slavery in Egypt and back to the land of their forefathers, he directed them to kill all the Canaanite clans who were living in the land (Deut. 7.1-2; 20.16-18). The destruction was to be complete: every man, woman, and child was to be killed.

According to the version of divine command ethics which I’ve defended, our moral duties are constituted by the commands of a holy and loving God. Since God doesn’t issue commands to Himself, He has no moral duties to fulfill. He is certainly not subject to the same moral obligations and prohibitions that we are. In other words, if the commands of an all loving God sound evil, it’s only because good and evil are not really concepts he has to worry about, since he’s not subject to his own moral laws.

God taught Israel that any assimilation to pagan idolatry is intolerable. It was His way of preserving Israel’s spiritual health and posterity. God knew that if these Canaanite children were allowed to live, they would spell the undoing of Israel.

Moreover, if we believe, as I do, that God’s grace is extended to those who die in infancy or as small children, the death of these children was actually their salvation.

Okay... if this theory flies, how do we condemn bin Laden for 9/11? He may have said exactly the same thing that he only followed the voice of Allah therefore the attack is justified...

This is why I think biblical inerrancy is harmful. We'll be forced to defend the indefensible going against our conscience. And I firmly believe our conscience is God-given, so if we go against it, we are actually 'going against God' in the attempt of defending 'man-written' books.

What's your thought on this?

Tad

 

[Tadashi]

Tadashi, what is 'divine' reality as compared to just simple word - reality?

Hi Aupmanyav, nice to meet ya!

My perception of divine reality, I guess, is my perception of God, which is something like this:

God is this massive consciousness that resides somewhere, a force of goodness, “Cosmic Conscience", "the Will of the universe", or something to that effect. God emanates a form of telepathic waves influencing our minds and helping us grow, like what the sunlight does for plants. God is like an invisible sun for our souls...

I may not be fully understanding what you mean by "just simple word - reality", but to me, the reality is, "we are all one and we are one with God."

Tad

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Tad, you asked,

"…But you mean, we can "ask" God to speed up the process (if we can take the hardship) and He'll grant our request? So, the harder the life you lead, the closer to nirvana?"
　
--> Yes to both questions. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it! But we decide most of this before we are born. Some people choose easy lives, some people choose difficult lives.
　
"Some conservative Christians may think I'm not even a Christian."
　
--> If you do not believe that Jesus takes away your sins, then a LOT of Christians think you are not a Christian.
　
"How did you find out about being a monk in Tibet? Is it from a psychic reading? or you went there too and felt the same 'home' feeling?"
　
--> I first heard about it in a psychic reading. But I have a lot of affinity for Tibet, so it makes sense to me (just like you have a lot of affinity for America and English).
　
"…were you involved in the Theosophy activities in Japan?"
　
--> I went to a Theosophical meeting in Tokyo, but they were all talking in Japanese, so I didn’t get anything out of it. (This was many years ago.) But the Theosophical Society in Japan has gotten bigger since then.

"When and how did you become a Theosophist?"
　
--> I had a family member who was a Theosophist. We started having Theosophical discussions when I was 12. By the time I was 15, I was hooked.
　
"Did you formerly practiced any other religions?"
　
--> I have tried many religions. I was a Christian, a Buddhist, even a Baha’i for a while. But I always quit when I find something I didn’t like. Christianity teaches that Jesus forgives our sins (which means that Christianity teaches us we not responsible for our sins). Buddhism teaches that we do not have a soul. Luckily, I agree with everything in Theosophy. I have not found even one small idea in Theosophy that I disagree with. If you find something in a religion you don’t like, you should start looking for a better religion.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God is this massive consciousness that resides somewhere, a force of goodness, “Cosmic Conscience", "the Will of the universe", or something to that effect.

Any evidence of this 'massive consciousness'? What happens when this 'massive consciousness' bangs against the wall of evil?

 

[Tadashi]

　
--> Yes to both questions. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it! But we decide most of this before we are born. Some people choose easy lives, some people choose difficult lives.

This actually confirms my understanding of why there are so much pain and suffering in the world... They're our training tools. I think this earth is the school where all grades of souls learn together.

And it makes sense to me that the harder the life, the closer to salvation (or satori). I had always felt disturbed by how unfair life can be to some people. Such as being born in a poor country where you don't even have enough food or clean water, or born with a severe disability, or a child suffering cancer... How does a merciful and just God allow this? So I developed this concept of the earth being the training field, and those who enduring such hardship are actually superior souls taking a higher hurdle for their soul building. Like, if you wanted to be an elite like the NavySEALs, you'd expect your training to be extremely arduous. But you don't think the drill sergeant is cruelly harsh on trainees because he doesn't love them... once I arrived at this, everything started to make sense and I was able to reconcile with this seemingly unfair world we live in...

--> If you do not believe that Jesus takes away your sins, then a LOT of Christians think you are not a Christian.

I really don't care about the dogma, but in some sense, Jesus shows me how to take away my sins by being my role model. I just love Jesus sooooo much. I don't want to have to leave Christianity if I can. If it weren't for Jesus' teachings, I might've never come to the realization of God. I'm deeply indebted to him... But the logic of Theosophy is very appealing to me. so I'm torn...

--> I first heard about it in a psychic reading. But I have a lot of affinity for Tibet, so it makes sense to me (just like you have a lot of affinity for America and English).

I wonder if I should try a psychic reading myself... but I have to be careful which psychic I go to, don't I? I hear there are many 'fakes' out there... Is the reading by an authentic psychic very expensive?
　　

--> I went to a Theosophical meeting in Tokyo, but they were all talking in Japanese, so I didn’t get anything out of it. (This was many years ago.) But the Theosophical Society in Japan has gotten bigger since then.

Probably you were the only gaijin there? (btw, when I use the term 'gaijin' I never mean as a pejorative, but as a term of endearment. I just realized that some foreigners may feel it has a negative connotation... perhaps you prefer 'gaikoku-jin' instead?)

What do Theosophists typically do at their meetings? Theological discussions like the Bible study? Does Theosophy have something equivalent to the Bible?
　

--> I had a family member who was a Theosophist. We started having Theosophical discussions when I was 12. By the time I was 15, I was hooked. 　　
--> I have tried many religions. I was a Christian, a Buddhist, even a Baha’i for a while. But I always quit when I find something I didn’t like. Christianity teaches that Jesus forgives our sins (which means that Christianity teaches us we not responsible for our sins). Buddhism teaches that we do not have a soul. Luckily, I agree with everything in Theosophy. I have not found even one small idea in Theosophy that I disagree with. If you find something in a religion you don’t like, you should start looking for a better religion.

so, you became a Theosophist at a young age... but you also left it once and tried other religions... Was it out of pure curiosity? because it seems you had no reason to leave it if you agreed with everything in Theosophy.

Yea... I'm still trying to figure out what 'anatta (無我)' really means... I'm attracted to the notion of 'selflessness'. But I need to study more about Buddhism, before I can decide if it's for me or not...

Oh, I'm a bit interested in Baha'i too. But I heard that one has to abstain from drinking... I love a glass of wine now and then, so I thought mmm... I'm too impious to be a Baha'i! lol... But what did you find in it to be incompatible with your beliefs?

I kind of doubt if I can find a perfect religion that I agree with every doctrine it entails... like I said, I'm an oddball... Why can't I learn from multiple religions and make my own path to my salvation... But both Borg (Christian theologian I like) and Dalai Lama (whom I greatly admire) said, "you should dig deep in one place rather than digging shallowly in many places...", which indeed makes sense too...

Nick, thank you so very much for answering my questions. And sorry for asking many more... (if you're busy, please take time in replying.)

I'll continue to study Theosophy. After some online search, I found some websites. But if you know of any particular site that you think is good, please let me know.

Hontouni iroiro arigatou-gozaimasu

Tad

 

[Tadashi]

Any evidence of this 'massive consciousness'? What happens when this 'massive consciousness' bangs against the wall of evil?

Any evidence? It's my 'faith', so I don't have any empirical evidence, other than that quite many living things on earth posses consciousness...

What is 'the wall of evil'? I'm still myself not sure what evil really is, and how it happens to exist in the world...

Tad