The Perennial Philosophy

[Tadashi]

Hi Thomas,
(Me:Black, You:Blue)

I rather think you haven't got the Christian perspective on this.
Say someone commits a crime, and offends a community, say painting swastikas on tombstones in a Jewish cemetery.

They then realise the error of their ways, own up to the community, and say they will scrub every tombstone clean. That is 'work'.

Whether the community decide to forgive the offender and accept him back into the community is their decision, not his. They are not obliged to forgive him, just because he cleaned the stones. So that is a 'grace' accorded him by the community he offended.

If you're 'sincerely' sorry, you will always feel 'compelled to work' in order to undo the damage you've caused. But even if the person (who painted swastikas) was hit by a car and died on the way to the cemetery (intending to mend his errors), he should still be forgiven even though he wasn't able to do the work.

Is it the community that should 'ultimately' forgive him? or is it God? The community may decide not to forgive him (yes, you cannot 'demand' forgiveness, you can only 'ask'), but God will forgive him if he is sincerely repentant, is what I believe.

'Grace' will be accorded by the community? not by God?

And if one does not forgive a person who sincerely has repented, would God forgive that unforgiving person?


Yes, but the grace comes from without, not from within. We do not manufacture our own grace, as we do the desire to perform good works.

'Grace' can only be given by God is my understanding. I'm sorry, I don't fully understand what you mean here... Could you expand on it? Especially the "comes from without, not from within" part?


How can they be? One is from self, the other from 'the Other'.

Well, instead of 'the same thing', I should've said 'they're mutually inclusive'. But I may be misunderstanding and misusing the word 'grace'... I still need to study more about what 'grace' really means...


In Christian theological terms, 'grace' means the Immanent Presence of the Holy Spirit, it is the means by which we can dwell in the heart of the Mystery; it is only in the Holy Spirit that we can see the Son for who He is, and in the Son we see the Father (cf Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:6). Without that, we see only the man, the human form ...

So, the Son is Jesus, and the Father is God... Does this verse imply that you have to accept Christ as your Savior (you have to be a Christian) for grace to be accorded?

*********​

Well, I said I'd take a few days off, but here I go again, I couldn't suppress my questions... (online forums can be addictive... )


Okay, I'm gonna go meditate now!

Talk to you guys more next week

Tad

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Tad,

If you are interested, we can discuss how the bible originally did not say that heaven and hell are eternal.

 

[Tadashi]

Yes, Nick, I'm interested!

Oh, but can we do that next week? I need to work on my translation project for the next few days...

Have a wonderful weekend

Tad

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"I need to work on my translation project for the next few days..."

--> がんばって! 加油!

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Yes, I was actually originally thinking the same thing. In the Bible, it's mentioned that condemned souls would be cast into the 'eternal fire' but, it really doesn't say you'll be eternally burned (punished)...'
**Thomas, please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not completely sure...

So, the 'fire' is eternal, but that doesn't mean that the punishment is eternal too...?? But when I read the catholic.com site, it did say "In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46)"

Yes, 'eternal punishment' changes things. I think I just have a really hard time accepting something like that, it seems like such a waste, what would be the point?

If I was looking for a church, I would keep asking people to explain that one too me, it might be an important peice to understand to understand the whole of their doctrine. And I think we need to understand the whole if we want to decide if that church has a place for us.

So I took it at the face value that that's what the Catholic Church teaches... And all my Christian friends (Protestants) think so too. They don't think it's physical burning, but it's eternal separation from God just as the site says. And this is my personal view but, being separated from God for eternity is indeed 'torment', well, at least to me.

Or maybe we cease to exist? But I don't know how relevant this is, we might not be meant to know such things, and simply do what we can here and now?

"dying in a state of mortal sin is also something worth discussing."
Does this mean dying in the midst of committing an atrocious crime (e.g., mass shooting)?

"heavy for someone like me"
Do you mean this for someone who is not particularly religious?

It's too heavy for me because I don't study the bible, I have no insights on the topic. I have no idea what 'mortal sin' implies.

Indeed, defining sin is rather difficult. I can only give you my definition and I expect others may disagree. My definition of sin is "hurting others out of your own selfishness, and not feeling guilty when you've wronged someone." I'm sorry I know it's vague, but this is the best I can do for now. For me, 'sincerely repenting' involves, first admit that you were wrong, apologize and make it up to the person the best you can (when that's possible), and swear not to do it again. If you do this with all sincerity that comes from the bottom of your heart, even though sometimes the person you've wronged may not forgive you, but I think God will forgive you. And again, God can see through you if you're truly repentant or not.

Some here would define it even looser, as 'missing the mark'. You should people about it some point.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Well that is self-evidently true.

What is? That they changed their view compared to Catholicism or that they did it because it was so frightening?

 

[Tadashi]

Yes, 'eternal punishment' changes things. I think I just have a really hard time accepting something like that, it seems like such a waste, what would be the point?

I know! It does not make sense! Truly, 'what is the point' of punishing someone forever when you don't give him a chance to repent?!? Is that a warning to the rest of us, that "this will happen to you if you reject Me"?? Isn't that a threat? Does God want us to come to Him "because we don't want to suffer the eternal punishment"??

Although in my earlier post I spoke against William Lane Craig (Christian apologist) for his defending the genocide of Canaanites, there's one thing he said in a debate with Sam Harris (a notable hard atheist) that I wholeheartedly agreed. He said:

You don't believe in God to avoid going to hell. Believing in God isn't some kind of fire insurance. You believe in God because God as the supreme good is the object of admiration and love. His goodness itself to be desired for its own sake... It has nothing to do with avoiding hell...

This is why I don't understand the necessity of hell especially an eternal one (though I'd guess William Lane Craig himself believes in eternal hell...).

In my theory, we just need to be connected to God's goodness to be accepted (and the awareness of this is not a requirement, you can be connected to God without you knowing). But it's still very hard to completely escape from our own selfishness (sins), humans are so flawed... so what we have to do is to keep coming back to earth for more lessons until our souls are impeccably pure like that of Jesus or Buddha or many saints and sages who showed us their Ways.

If this earth was the training field where hellish things do happen for training purposes, I can understand it. I can understand that the path to heaven must be 'earned'. But 'eternal' punishment, I cannot make sense out of it. It is just not reconcilable with whom I understand God to be. Our free will part is about how long it'll take for a soul to form the desire to be connected to the supreme goodness of God, not about choosing or rejecting Him, because eventually, no matter how long it may take, we will all choose Him, no souls will go to waste, is my belief. If this make me not a Christian, then I'm not a Christian. But I'm still a follower of Jesus. I hope it's okay for me to say that.

If I was looking for a church, I would keep asking people to explain that one too me, it might be an important peice to understand to understand the whole of their doctrine. And I think we need to understand the whole if we want to decide if that church has a place for us.

I confess, I still haven't chosen a church to go to. I'm still exploring... I kind of feel afraid that if I go to just one church I get affected by sort of 'group mentality' and my thinking could be stirred into that direction. For now, I prefer to talk to various people with different views/beliefs and learn a wide verity of things.

Or maybe we cease to exist? But I don't know how relevant this is, we might not be meant to know such things, and simply do what we can here and now?

Anyone's soul disappearing is not something I want to accept. Let's say if you had ten children, and some of them loved you back, some of them rebelled against you. Since you are a just/fair person, you cannot reward all of them the same. Do you send the rebellious ones to a rehabilitation facility, or do you want them to go disappear? Remember, you love all of your children regardless, and you are almighty so you can make whatever you wish happen (except that you don't wish to brainwash your children to love you.)

And you're absolutely right. "do what we can here and now" is extremely important. That's the core of our soul building.


Ahhh... I posted again... couldn't help...
Now off to meditation...

ACOT, Hope you're having a fun weekend , whereas I have to sit and work at the desk all day...

Tad

 

[Tadashi]

ニック、どうもありがとう！がんばります！

正

 

[Nicholas Weeks]

Theosophy (or divine wisdom) is where this notion of 'perennial philosophy' came from.

Here is little bit from Katherine Tingley:

Think of Theosophy not so much as a body of
philosophic or other teaching, but as the highest law
of conduct, which is the enacted expression of divine
love or compassion.

Theosophy will bring something to you that can
never pass away: the consciousness of your Divine,
your Inner Self; a conviction of your inherent power
to conserve your energy along the highest spiritual
lines. For man cannot find his true place in the
great scheme of human life until he has ennobled
and enriched his nature with the consciousness of
his Divinity. That is what Theosophy means; that
is its message; and it is a beautiful one to those
who can throw aside fear and prejudice and truly
interpret its meaning.

G de Purucker, Blavatsky & WQ Judge are other good sources.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"'eternal' punishment, I cannot make sense out of it. It is just not reconcilable with whom I understand God to be."

--> Hell is not eternal. You have nothing to worry about.

"ニック、どうもありがとう！がんばります！"

--> 每天我也加油!

By the way, Skull is a fellow Theosophist of mine.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

If this make me not a Christian, then I'm not a Christian. But I'm still a follower of Jesus. I hope it's okay for me to say that.

No need to make up your mind just yet, is there? For me, it's enough to say that I don't understand 'hell' right now, and every day I have the choice of finding out more about it or not.
And you know me, I wouldn't care if you and I called our selves Christians or not. It's what we believe, not the title, that matters.

I confess, I still haven't chosen a church to go to. I'm still exploring... I kind of feel afraid that if I go to just one church I get affected by sort of 'group mentality' and my thinking could be stirred into that direction. For now, I prefer to talk to various people with different views/beliefs and learn a wide verity of things.

Oh, take your time, I would say. I understand your reluctance, we all know people get trapped. I'm not so afraid myself, I get a couple from the Jehovas Witnesses visiting once a week. I have no interest in joining and they know that (though they probably hope I would), but we mostly have a good time (they can take a joke about brainwashing).

Anyone's soul disappearing is not something I want to accept. Let's say if you had ten children, and some of them loved you back, some of them rebelled against you. Since you are a just/fair person, you cannot reward all of them the same. Do you send the rebellious ones to a rehabilitation facility, or do you want them to go disappear? Remember, you love all of your children regardless, and you are almighty so you can make whatever you wish happen (except that you don't wish to brainwash your children to love you.)

I can understand your logic, but the idea of the afterlife just opens countless questions, non of witch I couldn't possibly find answers for. And since I was raised with the idea that you simply die when you die, I don't find the idea distressing at all. Even comforting at some points in my life! So I don't dwell on it. You can always bounce some logic of me if you want, always up for that.

ACOT, Hope you're having a fun weekend , whereas I have to sit and work at the desk all day...

Sorry to hear it, hope you make the most of it. Was out in the woods yesterday (Friday), with the plan being staying the night, but it was just too cold. I have to look over my gear if I'm going to try that again this time a year. Took an hour of brisk walk (partly running) through the dark evening just to see the bus home pass in front of me. All in all frustrating but also educational, and very good cardio (I'm a bit sore today).
Will take it easy for the rest of the weekend.

 

[Thomas]

If you are interested, we can discuss how the bible originally did not say that heaven and hell are eternal.

It's a pity you feel the need to do this.

It's not in the spirit of the Perennial Philosophy or Interfaith Dialogue.

It's politics.

 

[ventura23]

Wow... so much knowledge to assimilate... thank you Thomas!
As a believer for only about a year, I am in awe of the people so conversant with religions such as yourself!

So, the point is, I should pick one whichever makes the most sense to me (since each and every authentic religion is true) and stick to it?

But here's my problem... though as much as I adore Jesus from the bottom of my heart and want to follow his teachings and I will for the most part, I can't believe God will send some of us to Hell where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I don't understand why God can't give everyone as many chances as they need since God has all the time he can spare (=eternity) and He loves every single one of His children so dearly. I think this is why I'm drawn to the notion of reincarnation. So, I'm mixing a Hinduism/Buddhism element into my Christian beliefs, probably it's something you don't recommend to do.

But in the early centuries, there seem to have been some Christians who believed in reincarnation, a notable one would be Origen, though he was later denounced for his controversial beliefs.

After listening to Bart Ehrman's lectures, I cannot help but to think the canonization of the current scripture is a result of power struggle among many different sects which held a wide variety of beliefs back then. So, there might be some truths that were lost in the process...? If so, we might find those truths in other religions...? This is why a holistic approach to all religions is appealing to me.

But I may change my position as I explore more... since I just started my faith journey... and various perspectives and insights from people of different persuasions help me rethink and shape my beliefs. I truly thank you for your contribution. I very much appreciate it!

Tad

Why to try to do anything to find God
It is all in one psalm.:Be still and know ".

A quiet mind, not filled with verse and chapter is not an intellectual mind. "Be still and know God". simple

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

ventura23, what do you even get from writing here? You aren't talking to anyone, you're just talking.

 

[wil]

Why to try to do anything to find God
It is all in one psalm.:Be still and know ".

A quiet mind, not filled with verse and chapter is not an intellectual mind. "Be still and know God". simple

Yes, Be still and know that I AM G!D.

 

[donnann]

It's a pity you feel the need to do this.

It's not in the spirit of the Perennial Philosophy or Interfaith Dialogue.

It's politics.

The bible never said hell was forever but it clearly said heaven is or the heavenly kingdom.

 

[Tadashi]

Why to try to do anything to find God
It is all in one psalm.:Be still and know ".

A quiet mind, not filled with verse and chapter is not an intellectual mind. "Be still and know God". simple

I've found my God. I'm just interested in what other people have found, and like to think aloud with my good friends.

Tad

 

[Tadashi]

Yes, Be still and know that I AM G!D.

Why didn't you tell me this sooner?!?!
You could've saved me a lot of Bible reading, if I knew YOU were God.

...The Bible should have had only that verse and made things easier for everyone

Tad

 

[Tadashi]

The bible never said hell was forever but it clearly said heaven is or the heavenly kingdom.

Hi donnann,

I really really really HOPE hell is not forever, but the Bible says,
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV)

How do we interpret "everlasting punishment"?

Tad

 

[Tadashi]

ACOT,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
Yep. "Label" doesn't matter. I'm totally with you on that. As you suggest, I'll take my time and enjoy the journey. And you are a great sounding board for me, thanks so much!

A day in the woods may be what I need to refresh my mind. I should go soak up nature as soon as I get a chance.

Tad