What's so good about reincarnation?

[wil]

Yoga has not lost its appeal in the states...there are more yoga studios and classes than ever before. A spiritual meditative practice...sure...but with health benefits....like many 'spiritual' practices...there is/was a reason why the jews quit eating pigs and shellfish...sickness...just as there was a reason cows were made sacred...

Religions evolved to serve the people... now they expect people to evolve and serve the religion...

The ONLY issue I have with reincarnation is every past life regression therapy seems to find everyone was famous at one lifetime or the other. (he said half jokingly).


You don't like the idea of reincarnation....we get it. You don't believe in it. We get that too. I don't believe in original sin, I am not unworthy of a second chance....in this life, nor this plane of existence, nor eternity.

But we'll be having the same arguments next time around...and maybe I'll be the catholic then!

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"...there is/was a reason why the jews quit eating pigs and shellfish...sickness...just as there was a reason cows were made sacred..."

--> There is a reason why vegetarians don't have quadrule bypasses, which is why some religions say don't eat beef, don't eat pork, etc. The eating of beef was also depleting the number of heavy-labor animals, which was another good reason to prohibit the eating of them.

 

[wil]

exactly, they needed the oxen to plow and haul...they 'thought' they needed dairy as well...and with overpopulation should they eat the cows...no cheese, yoghurt or milk...

a law, an ordinance wouldn't be enough....you needed to have a bigger hammer...an invisible G!d and reincarnation to bring you back as gnat should you not comply.

 

[Thomas]

Yoga has not lost its appeal in the states...

I don't doubt it! America is the world's leading consumer culture, after all.
It's a 'feel-good' therapy, same as here.

there are more yoga studios and classes than ever before. A spiritual meditative practice...sure...but with health benefits....like many 'spiritual' practices...

It's just been inverted, that's all.

there is/was a reason why the jews quit eating pigs and shellfish...sickness...just as there was a reason cows were made sacred...

Ooh, that does rather come across as a sweeping generalisation. That facts say otherwise.

Religions evolved to serve the people... now they expect people to evolve and serve the religion...

D'you think? I think that's the pragmatist viewpoint: "What's in it for me?'

The ONLY issue I have with reincarnation is every past life regression therapy seems to find everyone was famous at one lifetime or the other. (he said half jokingly).

But there's truth in that. I think the idea of 'progress' falls under the same principle. It's a delusion.

Again, if one studies the actual doctrine ...

I don't believe in original sin, I am not unworthy of a second chance....in this life, nor this plane of existence, nor eternity.

That suggests a rather inflated opinion of one's worth? You're worthy, just because you're you?

Why bother with religion at all, or is it just FOMO?

 

[wil]

lol...had to look up fomo... fear of missing out? Now gad I've heard that one from the bible thumpers..."but what if you are wrong?" Yes dance to our tune of the unknown ending just in case we are right...

Sweeping generalization? Well no, but you should be able to know them when you see them eh? This is all too funny Thomas. So you don't like the idea, don't believe in it, have no use for it, aren't going to be swayed by any discussion.... what was the purpose? Trying to get us to join the fold? Yes, maybe I'll come back as a Catholic next life...you'll be a Hindu, and tell me I'm ridiculous for another lifetime... I look forward to it.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"Yes, maybe I'll come back as a Catholic next life...you'll be a Hindu, and tell me I'm ridiculous for another lifetime...."

--> As a matter of fact, I remember a couple of times when I was about to utter a racial slur against a member of a minority group. But I stopped myself because I told myself, I might just be a member of that minority group someday!

 

[Thomas]

Now gad I've heard that one from the bible thumpers..."but what if you are wrong?"

So what's that got to do with anything? They believe in gravity, so dos that mean physics is a crock, too?

Sweeping generalization? Well no, but you should be able to know them when you see them eh?

Yes, it's something I learned from philosophy.

For example: The reasons why Jews and Moslems don't eat pig is because it's 'unclean' for a number of reasons, whereas the Hindus regard the cow as 'sacred' because they signify prosperity ... so the reasons are almost diametrically oposed.

This is all too funny Thomas.

It's a pit you think so, because it's true. You're so ready to rush to judgement.

So you don't like the idea, don't believe in it, have no use for it, aren't going to be swayed by any discussion....

I'm open to be swayed by reason – the prospect of reincarnation, in a Christian context, was discussed by Karl Rahner, one of the greatest Catholic theologians of the 20th century, and I'm still working on his thesis – it's very metaphysically technical, and works his ideas around such concepts as being, freedom, justice and mercy – but it is reasonable.

But you don't reason, Will, you just offer opinions based, it seems to me, on what benefits you most.

If I accepted your argument, it would be in 'blind faith', because you've given me no good reason to accept it, other than you think you're worth it, therefore it must be available.

So far Aupmanyav has affirmed the doctrine as I understand it, the outlook of which is rather bleak picture I painted.

Trying to get us to join the fold?

No, I'm asking for a reasoned discussion ...

 

[wil]

I happen to enjoy the merry go round. If I come back so be it. If I don't oh well. If I goto some heaven or hell or simply rot in the ground...

Who the hell knows??

None of us...all conjecture...all religion is working towards is an equitable society...maintaining some control. Not a problem for me. Arguing and debating the unknown and unknowable... a merry go round for sure.

I come back as gnat, who cares, short life, and try again.. come back as a cicada, 17 years underground as a pupae awaiting 3 days of flight and mating...whatever...or maybe as a redwood and stand watching for a few hundred years.. matters not to me.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"I come back as gnat, who cares, short life, and try again.. come back as a cicada, 17 years underground as a pupae awaiting 3 days of flight and mating...whatever...or maybe as a redwood and stand watching for a few hundred years.. matters not to me."

--> I'd like to add that I believe that humans only reincarnate as humans, not as animals, bugs, etc.

 

[ventura23]

what literally dead ? did they have to bring you back to life ?

maybe you have never been incarnated on this Earth before ?

Just to clarify ...

I don't like the idea of hell. It horrifies me. Our Lord used the term 'gehenna' for a very precise reason. It paints the same image in the mind as our Medieval forebears painted ...

... it's not supposed to be 'acceptable'; but then truth is not determined according to human sensibilities or sentiments. That's like repainting our cultural histories to declare that we are always noble in what we do.

... if something in you recoils at the idea, then the image has done its job. That's what it is supposed to do.

It's there to prick the conscience.

Fear is the backstop.

Fear, as they say, is the beginning of wisdom.

Reincarnation is the same.

It should not be regarded as a 'soft option'. That's just sentimentalism.

+++

Those who suffer from depression talk about 'the black dog'. Now I happen to have a thing about dogs, but I would not thereby assume that depression is a nice condition, a walk in the park with the dog.

It's actuality, we none of us know, but that doesn't give us the right or the reason to repaint it as something more palatable, based on nothing more than outraged sentimentality.

Today, rather than investigate, with reason, what the doctrines actually say, people look at the packaging.

Look at yoga. It was once a spiritual discipline. Now it's a keep fit regime, quite trendy once, but has long since got a bit tired. Other fads have displaced it. So yoga will have to reinvent itself as 'yoga-lates' or 'power yoga' or whatever to get back its market share ... or find a celebrity to endorse it, like Madonna or Tome Cruise ...

Personally, I think anyone who draws satisfaction from the idea of one, single soul destined to suffer needs to reconsider their values.

In the West, we 'rationalise' the truth to soften the edges. The western 'reinvention' of reincarnation, with the nasty bits nicely removed, or the wholesale rejected of the idea of the loss of the soul, is typical of our post-modern relativism.

That's not religion. That's politics.

There isno hell anywhere but on this earth.

 

[wil]

States of mind...

 

[Thomas]

Who the hell knows??
None of us...all conjecture...

I have to refute you here ... Because it's conjecture to you does not mean that's all it can be for everyone.

"all religion is working towards is an equitable society...maintaining some control...

Without sight of the Mystery, that will always seem the case. Without faith, religion devolves to mere morality. Western consumerism devolves that further, to self-servitude – everything is acceptable if that's what I want.

For the believer, faith and knowledge of the Transcendent is the raison d'être of religion.

I come back as gnat ...

Ah, Will ... that's such a sad outlook. Don't give up.

And I agree with Nick, by the way. According to the doctrine, if one enters a sub-human state, then there's no way back ...

"Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished ..."
Gospel of Thomas. Logion 2.

Perhaps you're about to break through the 'troubled' stage?

 

[wil]

Quoting the gospel of Thomas? Is it no longer apocryphal? Remember the 5 gospels fellows thought it contained the most most likely quotes of Jesus...

 

[Nicholas Weeks]

From Mahathera Narada's book Buddha and His Teachings:

Buddhists believe in a just and rational law of Kamma that
operates automatically and speak in terms of cause and effect
instead of rewards and punishments.

In the words of Bhikkhu Silācāra:
“If a person does something in sleep, gets out of bed and walks
over the edge of a verandah, he will fall into the road below and in
all likelihood break an arm or leg. But this will happen not at all as
a punishment for sleep-walking, but merely as its result. And the
fact that he did not remember going out on the verandah would not
make the slightest difference to the result of his fall from it, in the
shape of broken bones. So the follower of the Buddha takes measures
to see that he does not walk over verandahs or other dangerous
places, asleep or awake, so as to avoid hurting himself or anyone
who might be below and on whom he might fall.”

The fact that a person does not remember his past is no hindrance
to the intelligent understanding of the working of
Kammic law. It is the knowledge of the inevitability of the
sequence of Kamma in the course of one’s life in Samsāra that
helps to mould the character of a Buddhist.

 

[Thomas]

Quoting the gospel of Thomas?

I thought you'd appreciate it.

Is it no longer apocryphal?

Of course it is, how can it be anything else?

Remember the 5 gospels fellows thought it contained the most most likely quotes of Jesus...

Yes, but they were probably playing fast and loose.

Bart Ehrman, among others, says it was compiled from the Synoptics in Syria in the late 2nd century. There's good text criticism to say so, too

 

[Tadashi]

From Mahathera Narada's book Buddha and His Teachings:
The fact that a person does not remember his past is no hindrance to the intelligent understanding of the working of Kammic law. It is the knowledge of the inevitability of the sequence of Kamma in the course of one’s life in Samsāra that helps to mould the character of a Buddhist.

I have developed my own concept of reincarnation. I don't exactly follow that of Hinduism or Buddhism ('cause I'm not a Hindu or Buddhist), but is my view below a bit similar to what you're saying here, I hope?

We don't usually remember our past lives (occasionally there are some who do), but, I believe, we carry imprints from each life in our souls though we can't cognitively process them with our brains, but only subconsciously. This subconscious knowledge is a valuable tool that aids to further our 'intuition' that hugely influences our minds.

*****

Another thing I wanted to ask... A long time ago, I read a book by a mystic (I forgot her name, I need to go find the book buried somewhere in my office) who believes in reincarnation and said that, each soul, before the rebirth, actually decides for itself as to what challenge it would take on in the next life. For example, a soul could choose the hurdle of, say, 'cancer' or 'disability' as the next training. But you just don't remember that you took the task for yourself, that you yourself asked for this hurdle for your spiritual growth. Behind every pain, there's a spiritual gain(=growth), and the greater the pain, the greater the growth, even though sometimes the growth may not manifest in the current life, it will in the next life.

Does Theosophy hold similar ideas, by any chance?

Tad

 

[Tadashi]

It's not supposed to make sense, it's supposed to frighten you into doing something about it. Not in the next life ... in this one.

I think there's a tendency to think 'another chance', but the point is, you're supposed to make the change in this life. You should treat this chance as your last, best shot, and give it your all.

I think the idea of 'another chance' is a false notion. Tad and Thomas do not reincarnate, everything you and I identify as 'me' is ephemeral in Hinduism and Buddhism, and is a chimera. I think all reincarnation is actually saying is 'life goes on', not this life, but life in general. And if our ancestors have made a mess of things, we're born into that mess and suffer the consequence.

This is what you said to me in another thread, but I thought it may be more appropriate to post my reply in this thread instead, since it's about reincarnation.

I know you and I would never agree on reincarnation (which is perfectly fine with me), so I don't see much point in continuing to argue over it, but there's one misconception I feel you have about my view of reincarnation that I want to try to correct if possible.

I think you've been saying that I buy into the westernized softened consumer-friendly type of reincarnation to make the reality palatable so I can swallow it with ease. I object to that.

First of all, I don't exactly follow the Hinduism/Buddhism version of reincarnation, because I'm not a Hindu or Buddhist. But my view of reincarnation is no less harsh than theirs. And it's frightening enough to make me give it my all.

Living on earth where suffering occurs everywhere one after another is like floating on the choppy water trying not to drown. It's not always easy, actually most of the time, it's difficult. (Have you seen the movie "Life of Pi"? It's kind of like that.) We try with everything we've got in our strength to keep floating, but when our body gives up which it always does, we drown and die, and after a short while, we're put back exactly where we drowned... So, there's nothing good about it at all.

But if we realize there's a way out of this, if we realize there's God's island in the distance where we can swim to and eventually put an end to all this, we'll start swimming toward it as hard as we possibly could, but we'd still drown, because it'll take numerous tries (lifetimes) to swim this great distance. So we want to give all we've got in swimming even to get an inch closer, another inch closer, every second of our lives. So, no one can take it easy thinking "I'll have another chance anyway", who would want more chances of drowning! We do not want to wait another lifetime to finish this if we didn't have to.

But there is at least always a 'hope' that you will eventually go to God's island, no matter how long it takes. God will patiently wait for us. He will never abandon me, or you, or anyone. That's God's compassion to me. And also there are some occasional sunny days where the water is calm when you can float without much effort and enjoy the beautiful sky, when God shows His mercy and tells us to 'rest a bit'...

Tad

 

[Nicholas Weeks]

I have developed my own concept of reincarnation. I don't exactly follow that of Hinduism or Buddhism ('cause I'm not a Hindu or Buddhist), but is my view below a bit similar to what you're saying here, I hope?

We don't usually remember our past lives (occasionally there are some who do), but, I believe, we carry imprints from each life in our souls though we can't cognitively process them with our brains, but only subconsciously. This subconscious knowledge is a valuable tool that aids to further our 'intuition' that hugely influences our minds.

*****

Another thing I wanted to ask... A long time ago, I read a book by a mystic (I forgot her name, I need to go find the book buried somewhere in my office) who believes in reincarnation and said that, each soul, before the rebirth, actually decides for itself as to what challenge it would take on in the next life. For example, a soul could choose the hurdle of, say, 'cancer' or 'disability' as the next training. But you just don't remember that you took the task for yourself, that you yourself asked for this hurdle for your spiritual growth. Behind every pain, there's a spiritual gain(=growth), and the greater the pain, the greater the growth, even though sometimes the growth may not manifest in the current life, it will in the next life.

Does Theosophy hold similar ideas, by any chance?

Tad

'Imprints' is a common translation of 'vasanas' a Sanskrit term used by both Hindus & Buddhists. The Hindus use 'soul', the Buddhist use 'mind' for that which is imprinted. Not that much difference, really.

The ancient Greeks (see story of Er in Republic of Plato) like most spiritual traditions accept this notion of the soul's prevision of its next lifetime. The choice of negative or positive elements to the upcoming lifetime are not infinite in number, but limited to possible effects determined by previous acts of body, speech & mind - that is karma.

So, yes Theosophy accepts most traditional, ancient spiritual ideas. It even says that Theosophy is the most ancient source of these common or root ideas regarding the nature of man & universe.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Tad, you said,
　
"I have developed my own concept of reincarnation. I don't exactly follow that of Hinduism or Buddhism…"
　
--> The Theosophical version is a little different than the Hinduism/Buddhism version of reincarnation.

I want to emphasize that Theosophy does not say we must believe this or that. Each Theosophist is free to believe what they will. We do not have a ‘Theosophical Pope’ who tells us what we must believe (and we like it this way just fine). Different Theosophists are free to have different interpretations of what reincarnation really is.
　
I remember the time I attended a Buddhist church service. Buddhists do not believe that we have souls. (I believe we have souls.) I was told that, because I believe we have souls, that I am not a Buddhist. (I was shocked by such blind dogma.)

It is against the rules for one Theosophist to tell another Theosophist what to believe. I do not know any Theosophists who don’t believe in reincarnation, but if someone doesn’t believe in reincarnation, they are still welcome to call themself a Theosophist and attend Theosophical meetings. (How many other ‘religions’ can say that?)
　
"…we carry imprints from each life in our souls…"
　
--> We carry the memory of all our past reincarnations in our ‘souls’.
　
"…we can't cognitively process them with our brains, but only subconsciously."
　
--> The day will come when we remember all of our past lives. Buddha remembered all of his past lives.
　
"…each soul, before the rebirth, actually decides for itself as to what challenge it would take on in the next life."
　
--> This is a basic Theosophical teaching.
　
"Behind every pain, there's a spiritual gain…"
　
--> I do not think that every painful event causes spiritual gain. Some painful events are just caused by bad karma that we need to burn off. But many painful events cause spiritual gain, but we will see the manifestation of the spiritual gain in a future life, just as you say (which is another reason to believe in reincarnation).
　
"…you will eventually go to God's island, no matter how long it takes."
　
--> But the amount of time here on earth for us to achieve enlightenment is limited. If someone does not achieve enlightenment during our time here on earth, they will have to wait billions of years for the next 'earth" (another form of hell).
　
"God will patiently wait for us. He will never abandon me, or you, or anyone."
　
--> This is true, even though some people will end up spending billions of years in ‘hell’.

"…purgatory which is a place imperfect souls go 'temporarily' before being accepted to heaven?"
　
--> Yes, But the Catholic church does not teach the idea of purgatory. They taught it for many centuries, but they recently stopped teaching the idea of purgatory. (Why did they suddenly change their minds? Were they wrong all those centuries?)
　
"…Is my understanding of purgatory correct?"
　
--> Purgatory is a basic Theosophical teaching.
　
"…I particularly don't have a problem with purgatory, though reincarnation makes more sense to me because I don't know how we can purify our souls just by sitting (or sleeping?) in purgatory without any trials that we'd have if we were to live on earth again."
　
--> Reincarnation and purgatory are 100% compatible ideas. When we die, we have a great deal of negativity within us. We need to burn off this negativity before we go to heaven. Sometimes it takes many years to burn off this negativity. But for most people, they burn off this negativity (in ‘purgatory) and then enter heaven. In this way, even ‘sinners’ can get to heaven, and most people do.

By the way, purgatory is an important idea in Japanese Buddhism. You know about the Buddhist Bon (盆) Dance, which millions of Japanese Buddhists dance every summer. Do you know the origin of the Bon dance? Centuries ago, a Buddhist Japanese man received the news that his mother had just been ‘released’ from purgatory and was ready to enter heaven. He danced with joy, so this is the origin of the Japanese Bon dance.
　
"I just thought about what you said before, "The ‘burning’ is not a physical burning but an emotional unhappiness and emotional suffering."

--> Yes, it is a place of emotional unhappiness. But I think I posted before that some (but not all) Theosophists also see hell as a place underground where some astral bodies go after death. Within the earth they can see hot magma, but I do not think they can feel the heat of the magma. (I think that all religions teach that hell is a hot, underground place, and I think there is a lot of truth to this.)
　
"…this strenuous process of having been forced to repeat virtually countless lifetimes is harsh enough, so doesn't need any further severe punishment like being in hell..."
　
--> I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one.
　
"According to the people who had an NDE, there's a Life Review process where you experience the pain you had caused to others."
　
--> This is one of our Judgement Days.
　
"Imagine, Hitler experiencing all the pain and horror he caused to each and every single one of the souls he harmed... that indeed would be HELL to pay... but he deserves that."
　
--> I think there is a good chance that Hitler will spend billions of years in ‘hell’.
　
"Does Theosophy have any position on NDEs (affirm or deny) or out-of-body experiences??"
　
--> NDE’s and OBE’s are fundamental Theosophical teachings.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Skull, do you believe that it is fair to be punished for our mistakes even if we don't know why we are punished or can grow from the punishment?