Miracles and Prayers... what's your take?

T

Tadashi

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As it so often happens, we deviated from the topic of another thread again, so I created a new thread.

Nick the Pilot said:
Do you believe in miracles, in other words, do you believe in times when the physical laws of nature are set aside for a moment, in order to answer someone's prayer?
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Ah... miracles... I really don't have a straight answer on that. I do entertain both sides of the argument. "God does not distort the law of nature He set Himself" vs. "The law of nature is His, so He can and does change it if He wishes"...

But I honestly don't give much serious thought to miracles, because they are not the reason I believe in God. To tell you the truth, many of the miraculous events that are described in the Bible, I'm rather skeptical of...

But I do believe there's communication between God and us, I think, through telepathy or something. So, prophets (or anyone spiritually intuitive) having visions and receiving God's messages (though they may not have always been interpreted correctly), I believe, can and do happen.

As for prayers, I take a different stance from most Christians, I think. God is not someone whom we negotiate terms with. But if we concentrate our thoughts and minds on "what God wants of me?", He'll let us know. The only thing I ask Him to bestow on me is to strengthen my faith.


Tad
 
I do believe in miracles and think they happen all the time without our even knowing. I don't mean to say that God lifts his little finger and raises mountains or anything like that. Although, I'd like to think he could if he wanted too. To me, life itself is a miracle and act of giving birth the greatest miracle of them all. Could God alter the laws of nature? Sure, why not. After all he created them.
 
Tadashi said:
"God does not distort the law of nature He set Himself"
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I think those who assume miracles 'contradict' or 'contravene' the laws of nature have made certain superficial assumptions. I don't think miracles stand against the laws of nature at all.

Tadashi said:
"The law of nature is His, so He can and does change it if He wishes"
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That's a good first argument. I'm always amused by people who can accept the idea that 'God made everything', but cannot accept that God made a woman pregnant.

Tadashi said:
But I honestly don't give much serious thought to miracles, because they are not the reason I believe in God.
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Nor me ... but remember "the Jews require signs, and the Greeks seek after wisdom" (1 Corinthians 1:22) and there's a little bit if the Gentile and the Jew in all of us.

Tadashi said:
To tell you the truth, many of the miraculous events that are described in the Bible, I'm rather skeptical of...
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Might I suggest you're looking the wrong way? Think of miracles as physical koans ...

John never used the word 'miracle', he preferred the term 'sign', which I think is much more informative. He presents seven signs in his gospel. Nor are the miracles presented in Scripture merely gratuitous feats of wonder performed to convince a skeptical audience ... often the miracle tells us far more about the Mission of Christ, or more immediately, than the parables.

The acceptance of miracles requires first that one overcomes the inherent dualism of contemporary thought. For many, 'religion' and 'spirituality' is some interior and abstract conceptual process that happens in the soul and in the mind, but is something other than 'the real world'. It has no counterpart or complement in the physical, nor is such a thing necessary (a fundamental dualist error). So miracles are ruled out on empirical grounds, without ever considering the ontology of what has happened. Once you do that, then miracles become 'possible' without God having to contradict Himself.

Tadashi said:
But I do believe there's communication between God and us, I think, through telepathy or something.
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Oh, it's deeper than that.

To refer to another discussion, Deism believes in the kind of God that vexes our friend Wil no end! He's some kind of fiercely benign old man who sits on His throne and watches over the world ... now many Christians, and many Catholics, hold this view ... and really, there's nothing wrong with it.

But that's not how it is. Creation is not just something that happened at some moment billions of years ago, its a continuum dynamic, it's there in every moment. God is no different, in act, yesterday, today, tomorrow. If He created the world, that act of creation is always, all the time ... not that 'every moment is a new beginning' (that's just another way of looking at it as a time-bound event), but that every material moment is sustained by the Will of God.

Scripture says God worked for six days, rested on the seventh, that's just the received wisdom of the observation of natural law, ebb and flow, increase and decrease ... God neither works nor rests nor plays, which assumes different states within the Deity, and assumes God to be a person as we are persons.

Tadashi said:
As for prayers, I take a different stance from most Christians, I think. God is not someone whom we negotiate terms with.
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Hmmm ... I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't be so sure.

Tadashi said:
But if we concentrate our thoughts and minds on "what God wants of me?", He'll let us know. The only thing I ask Him to bestow on me is to strengthen my faith.
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Well said.

I might also add, as someone said, 'prayer is the practice of the presence of God'. "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you" (James 4:8).

Prayer is tough. It's climbing a mountain in the dark.

Our Lord prayed alone. I don't think because prayer is a private process per se, but because I doubt anyone's ability to stay conscious when in His presence when He was at prayer!
 
I believe in miracles, they happened in the Bible and they happen today.
 
"The law of nature is His, so He can and does change it if He wishes"...

--> Such an idea does not fit into my belief system.
 
Nor mine.

Both opinions, "God does not distort the law of nature He set Himself" and "The law of nature is His, so He can and does change it if He wishes" look at the question from an empirical viewpoint, and miss what is actually going on.

They ignore the metaphysical and ontological argument that says God can effect a miracle without suspending or altering or distorting or changing the law.

A miracle realises the transcendent potential of the physical to be that which it was ever ordained to be. To be itself according to its true nature or essence.

What 'boggles the mind' is our inability to perceive the Infinite manifesting Itself as Itself in the finite; the Absolute in the contingent. It boggles precisely because we know ourselves, and by virtue of that the world around us, to be finite, contingent beings.

The Laws of nature determine, by their very definition, the finite and the contingent. The Infinite and the Absolute transcend them.

"Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass." (Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, 16:17.)

+++

Prayer is a miracle.

Our self-knowing is so impoverished we can't even make ourselves truly known to the ones who love us and whom we love the most. How the heck do we expect, or assume, to make ourselves known to God?

Miracles, like prayer, are gratuitous gifts.
 
Geez Thomas, that was a bit lofty for us poor common folk, lol! I do get the gist of it though and would tend to agree on most points. I do have a question though. What do you mean by, 'making ourselves known to God'.
 
Namaste Jesus said:
Geez Thomas, that was a bit lofty for us poor common folk, lol! I do get the gist of it though and would tend to agree on most points. I do have a question though. What do you mean by, 'making ourselves known to God'.
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hahaha... his IQ is twice as high than most of us... That's how his brain works... he can't help it... Brace yourself before you get yourself into a debate with him (I've done that and it's always fun! but my brain usually gets fried in the end... :p)

Tad
 
Tadashi said:
hahaha... his IQ is twice as high than most of us... That's how his brain works... he can't help it... Brace yourself before you get yourself into a debate with him (I've done that and it's always fun! but my brain usually gets fried in the end... :p)

Tad
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Good point! ;) I wasn't really trying to debate though. I was just a bit puzzled by a statement he made. Just me I guess. I don't think being well read and having a large vocabulary necessarily implies high IQ nor does a high IQ necessarily imply intelligence. It's a little like a poker player winning a game with a bad hand simply because he can out raise the other players. No offense intended just a general observation I've made over the years. :)
 
Who says there are laws of nature? It's been argued that this is a basically Judeo-Christian idea, based on the concept of a God who lays down rules. It might be that the physical world just gets into the habit of behaving in a certain way. Another view is that the universe fits itself to our expectations. For example, measurements of the speed of light during the course of the last century gradually got closer to the currently accepted value. This was unlikely to be just a matter of more accurate measurement, because the early figures were not "all over the place": there's been a distinct trend in one direction. The biologist Rupert Sheldrake is the man to read here.

But even if there were rules, if God made them, he could alter them. Anthony Bloom, a Russian Orthodox Archbishop, said that a miracle is not really a breaking of rules, but a fallen world being brought back into line with how it ought to be. C. S. Lewis's Miracles is a good read, even for a non-Christian.

There are certainly well authenticated miracles. For example, the Catholic Church will not officially accept any cure at Lourdes unless
1. the patient's medical records show that they had a specific condition properly diagnosed by reliable doctors.
2. the condition was not one to undergo a spontaneous cure.
3. the cure could not be explained by any medical treatment being received.
4. the patient stayed cured over the next couple of years.
 
Namaste Jesus said:
Good point! ;) I wasn't really trying to debate though. I was just a bit puzzled by a statement he made. Just me I guess.
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I know... but that's how it starts... you ask a question, and let's see what happens if you disagreed with his answer...:rolleyes: One thing you might want to keep in mind is that when he comes back with a strong rebuttal, he's trying to get his points across, and not trying to force his views on you, though sometimes people mistake that and take offense. [whispering in your ear] Don't tell him I said this, because I don't want to feed into his ego, but he's one of the best (if not the best) debaters I've seen on forums.

Namaste Jesus said:
I don't think being well read and having a large vocabulary necessarily implies high IQ nor does a high IQ necessarily imply intelligence. It's a little like a poker player winning a game with a bad hand simply because he can out raise the other players. No offense intended just a general observation I've made over the years. :)
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I think being able to digest many books of highly complicated concepts and philosophies requires high IQ and that puts one into the category of being intelligent (or intellectual may be a better word). But I know what you're saying. I'd say it this way though, being intellectual doesn't always mean being wise, and vice versa. Take Forrest Gump for example, his IQ was much lower than average, but he was one of the wisest in the sense that he knew what's important in life. He had his value system right. That's what counts imho. It's not intellectuality by itself that makes the world a better place, it's wisdom, and it's my observation that he has both. (I know, I'm totally buttering him up! in hopes that he'll take it easy on me next time I debate him. :D)

Tad
 
Hi David, I think it's my first time talking to you, so welcome to the forum :)

I enjoyed your post, especially this:

"But even if there were rules, if God made them, he could alter them. Anthony Bloom, a Russian Orthodox Archbishop, said that a miracle is not really a breaking of rules, but a fallen world being brought back into line with how it ought to be. C. S. Lewis's Miracles is a good read, even for a non-Christian."

This is something I need to keep contemplating on. I only read Lewis's Mere Christianity. I'll try reading others as well in the hopefully near future.

I look forward to reading more of your posts. ;)

Tad
 
Hi Tad, Point taken. As I said, I was just speaking in general terms about observations I've made over the years. I was not talking about anyone in particular. It's just that, time and time again I've seen very wise and spiritual individules lose ground to those with much less insight, that were better able to express themselves.
 
Namaste Jesus said:
I do have a question though. What do you mean by, 'making ourselves known to God'.
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Well for two things to communicate, there must be some common ground, a medium in which the communication can talk place.

What do we have in common with God? A few here would say 'our divine nature', but I don't see it. Human nature does not possess those qualities that we ascribe to the Godhead.

Both God and man, it would seem, can say 'I'. But our 'I' is finite, contingent, ephemeral ... nothing like God at all.

We regard prayer as 'something we do' or even 'something we are taught to do' or 'something we are obliged to do'. I tend to think of prayer as something God does in us.
 
I look at it this way. God already knows us. After all, we're his creation. It is us, that do not know him as Christian and Hindu scripture states.
 
Namaste Jesus said:
I look at it this way. God already knows us. After all, we're his creation. It is us, that do not know him as Christian and Hindu scripture states.
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Indeed, the purpose of prayer is to know God.
"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings" (Romans 8:26).

In the Christian tradition, prayer is the desire to be united to the Father, in the Son, by the Holy Spirit. When the prayer comes from the heart, that is when we pray with the whole of our being, we already are.
 
Earlier in this thread I expressed my belief in miracles and that God could indeed change the laws of nature if he so desired. I stand by that, but on reflection, something occurs to me. The term, 'Laws of Nature' is merely a way for man to define the parameters set forth by God for life to exist. As the creator however, God falls well outside the boundaries of these parameters and is not governed by them. Therefore, there would be no need to alter them in order to facilitate a miracle.
 
In some my writings I focused upon Miracles and our relationship with God.

To paraphrase what I wrote:

When you look into your eyes in a mirror,
and realize your looking into the eyes of God,
Enjoy the goosebumps!

Infinite: Before the collapse of the quantum wave function all possibilities exist.
Definite: During the collapse the possibilities become probabilities.
Finite: At the collapse the experience occurs.

Just before the collapse starts exists a GAP in which we can place our Intention.

When you focus you projection,
Instead of projecting your focus,
What you would seek is what you have,
And where you would go is where you are.
Intention, not miracles.

Aloha.. Allen
__________
Know of any Living Bliss Masters, Please contact me
 
While I do pray, I don't believe that it effects anything other than my state of mind...and the states of mind of people who know I'm praying.

Let's consider praying for someone gravely sick to get better. Aside from the fact that tests have shown that it doesn't work, it brings up the question "Doesn't God already know that your loved one is sick?" Does God make these decisions based on how many people pray for an individual? If that's the case, a sick movie star would have a much better chance than a friendless, homeless man. Doesn't sound like a God who "keeps faith with those that sleep in the dust."

OTOH, it helps you emotionally. And if the sick person knows you're praying for them, it may improve their frame of mind as well.

I actually consider it a sin to pray for victory in a competition. To pray that your team wins the football game, or to pray that you get a job that several people want, is asking God to pick favorites.
 
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