The binding/sacrifice of...

[wil]

I like that Donnann....but back to scripture....to me using an example doesn't translate the scripture...if we want to have something we can use in life...we need to read, interpret litterally...and then look for the allegory, metaphor and metaphysic

A literal read of numbers 31 says that G!d not only told them to kill all the Medianites, but then go back because they didn't kill all the old men, and the women and children...G!d told them to kill them all...but keep the virgins for themselves...

Donnann, Shibolet, I'll ask again, how do you interpret that?

 

[SherryOfAsia]

So coming back to the topic.....What is the moral of the story.

If you think the story never happened please state why you think so?

One more thing : In which scriptures has the story been stated. e.g Bible (Old or New please State), Book of Moses, Quran e.t.c.

Thanks

 

[Shibolet]

Provide you interpretation of this please...

Numbers 31 King James Bible
Vengeance on Midian

Sorry, but you must provide the verse too. We two are not the only ones posting in this forum.

 

[Shibolet]

Provide you interpretation of this please...

Numbers 31 King James Bible
Vengeance on Midian

That was a time of migrations of peoples looking for a place to settle themselves in a more sedentary life and, as all migration groups would do, they killed all to prevent further insurrections against themselves. The Israelites were not alone. There were many other groups replacing and being replaced among themselves.

Midian was one of the states on the road of the Israelites to Canaan and Balak the king was afraid to stand to the Israelites in the open and fight. So he called for Balaam a prophet to curse Israel in the hope they could successfully fight the Israelites. Balaam refused on the basis that it would be a waste of time due to the fame of the Israelites but, he suggested to use the women to make the Israelites go berserk. The Israelites went right for the bates and Moses got suspicious that all his work to bring the Israelites from Egypt to Canaan would be lost. A few died as a result of their relation with the Midianite women and their almost conversion to their pagan cult of Baal Peor. The bottom line is that Moses had come to the conclusion that the only way was to exterminate the Midianites. Of course he embellished his orders with being from God Himself but, the truth is that it was all a decision of Moses. I would not blame him as if fact, the danger to lose the People and have the whole work destroyed was eminent. (Numb. 25 and 31)

 

[wil]

Provide you interpretation of this please...

Numbers 31 King James Bible
Vengeance on Midian

Its a gross misinterpretation to say god ordered anyone to be killed literally. A holy killing would be the destruction of the sin but not the sinner. Its just like a beheading. It really means in the HOLY book to remove the carnal mind and to replace it with the divine mind, It doesn't mean you should actually chop someones head off. Jesus is the perfect example of what god is and does. He raised the dead he never killed anyone. If you think with a divine mind you come out with the correct interpretation, but it you interpret the scriptures with a carnal mind it comes out sounding like god is a sinner and hes not.

Numbers 31 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

31 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. 3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian. 4  Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war. 5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand. 7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. 14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. 17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

G!d is telling us to slay the evil thoughts in our mind...

Midian is contention and strife....kill all the men...kill all thoughts of contention and strife in your mind...kill all the women, kill all contention and strife in your heart. G!d wishes man to empty the cup so it can be filled...

Go back and kill all the women and children...except the virgins??

Sure, kill all ideas of contention and strife....except those thoughts that have not been infected by contention and strife (laid with a man) keep the virginal thoughts to build upon.

Metaphysical Bible Dictionary | TruthUnity

 

[Shibolet]

G!d is telling us to slay the evil thoughts in our mind...

Midian is contention and strife....kill all the men...kill all thoughts of contention and strife in your mind...kill all the women, kill all contention and strife in your heart. G!d wishes man to empty the cup so it can be filled...

Go back and kill all the women and children...except the virgins??

Sure, kill all ideas of contention and strife....except those thoughts that have not been infected by contention and strife (laid with a man) keep the virginal thoughts to build upon.

Metaphysical Bible Dictionary | TruthUnity

I do enjoy to interpret the Scriptures as much as I can metaphorically but, I am afraid you have gone too far with your interpretation. As far as I am concerned, Moses did order the killing of all Midianites except for the virgins because obviously the Jewish concept of Jewishness being derived from the mother was not in effect yet. Probably it became with Ezra/Nehemiah after the return from exile in Babylon. (Ezra 9:32)

 

[Tikkun Olam]

KORAN DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE MOST HOLY TORAH. koran does not say that it was ishmael who was supposed to be offered.

koran states in several places that it is only a confirmation of the previous scriptures.

example, sura 46:12, 28:43, 10:90-94

So muslims have too, an obligation to support and affirm the torah.
just becuz they follow this doctrine, it doesnt mean it is correct.
Allah desired that Arabs would respect the jewish torah, and support jews returning to their promissed land, ex. sura 5:21, 7:137, 17:104.

just bcuz todays' muslims are against jews and america, doesnt make it right according to muslim scriptures.

 

[Shibolet]

KORAN DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE MOST HOLY TORAH. koran does not say that it was ishmael who was supposed to be offered.

koran states in several places that it is only a confirmation of the previous scriptures.

example, sura 46:12, 28:43, 10:90-94

So muslims have too, an obligation to support and affirm the torah.
just becuz they follow this doctrine, it doesnt mean it is correct.
Allah desired that Arabs would respect the jewish torah, and support jews returning to their promissed land, ex. sura 5:21, 7:137, 17:104.

just bcuz todays' muslims are against jews and america, doesnt make it right according to muslim scriptures.

And we can see how obedient they are to Sura 5:21, 7:137 and 17:104 with their struggle to get rid of the Jews from the Middle East.

 

[mehdi I]

Shibolet,

Muslims don't "hate jews." However muslims have a very negative view of jews due to the ethnic cleansing and segregation laws forced down the palestinian throats by Israel's zionist government.

I must correct you bro Tikkun,

The person the verse is concerning as far as the sacrifice is Abraham's first born (Ismael) as he was childless. Ismael fled with his mother hagar to the valley of becca to escape sarah's wrath see below. After Elohim(Allah) tests Abraham's belief and loyalty by seeing whether or not he would execute his dream, he brings him Glad tidings of his son Isaac as a reward:

My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous.(Abraham speaking)"

So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy.

And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."

And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,

We called to him, "O Abraham,

you have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.

Indeed, this was the clear trial.

And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice,

And We left for him [favorable mention] among later generations

Peace upon Ibrahim

Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.

Indeed, he was of Our believing servants.

And We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous."

this is the reason Muslim's sacrifice rams on Eid day.

 

[Shibolet]

Shibolet,

Muslims don't "hate jews." However muslims have a very negative view of jews due to the ethnic cleansing and segregation laws forced down the palestinian throats by Israel's zionist government.

I must correct you bro Tikkun,

The person the verse is concerning as far as the sacrifice is Abraham's first born (Ismael) as he was childless. Ismael fled with his mother hagar to the valley of becca to escape sarah's wrath see below. After Elohim(Allah) tests Abraham's belief and loyalty by seeing whether or not he would execute his dream, he brings him Glad tidings of his son Isaac as a reward:

this is the reason Muslim's sacrifice rams on Eid day.

You are completely wrong about the Palestinian Arabs versus Israel at the time the State was proclaimed in 1948. Just prior to it when the white paper was pushed unto the Jews to divide the region between Palestinians and Israel, the Jews agreed and the Palestinians rejected. For the Palestinians there was only one choice: The Jews out of the Middle East. Then in 1948 when the Jewish State was proclaimed, almost immediately the Arab neighborhood attack the State of Israel with the intent to push the Jews into the sea... and this with armies much more numerous not only in personnel but also in armory. This was no cleansing or segregation but extermination. And now you say they the Arabs don't hate the Jews. The baby Jewish State fought back and won the war against six Arabic States. It only means that, as usual, at the end of Jewish exiles, the Lord wants the Jews back in their Land and there is nothing any one can do.

 

[wil]

lol...then the lord caused hitler to kill the jews....as that is the only reason the state of Israel was created...


the lord...sheesh... wonder why we have religious wars?? People believe this crap.

 

[mehdi I]

You are completely wrong about the Palestinian Arabs versus Israel at the time the State was proclaimed in 1948. Just prior to it when the white paper was pushed unto the Jews to divide the region between Palestinians and Israel, the Jews agreed and the Palestinians rejected. For the Palestinians there was only one choice: The Jews out of the Middle East. Then in 1948 when the Jewish State was proclaimed, almost immediately the Arab neighborhood attack the State of Israel with the intent to push the Jews into the sea... and this with armies much more numerous not only in personnel but also in armory. This was no cleansing or segregation but extermination. And now you say they the Arabs don't hate the Jews. The baby Jewish State fought back and won the war against six Arabic States. It only means that, as usual, at the end of Jewish exiles, the Lord wants the Jews back in their Land and there is nothing any one can do.

While that's a nice romanticized account of history it is not a remotely accurate depiction of what happened. The Brit mandate made it illegal for palestinians to have any arms. Meanwhile the mandate and the U.S heavily armed the Israeli's and proactively took part in policies to ensure their well being. That of course led to an ethnic cleansing campaign by Israel post mandate, where palestinian village folk were lined up and killed to clear way for european jewish settlers (no different from cowboys and indians). While neighboring arabs cried foul for years and eventually took up arms, heavy intervention by the world police (U.S), insured that it would never materialize (due to the threat of using nukes etc...).

To this day Israel carries out policies of mass segregation, and economic bullying of palestinian territories, and its illegal settlers kill and torture adolescent Palestinians without any repercussions. This is not to mention that they illegally use chemical weapons like white phosphorus on docile Palestini populations.

Unfortunately my friend Israel represents God's good work as much as Nazi Germany or colonial Britain does.

 

[Shibolet]

lol...then the lord caused hitler to kill the jews....as that is the only reason the state of Israel was created...

the lord...sheesh... wonder why we have religious wars?? People believe this crap.

And you are giving yourself as a good example of an anthropomorphic god just like any common Christian. Neither did the Lord cause Hitler to kill the Jews nor was the Holocaust even the main reason the State of Israel was created.

 

[Shibolet]

While that's a nice romanticized account of history it is not a remotely accurate depiction of what happened. The Brit mandate made it illegal for palestinians to have any arms. Meanwhile the mandate and the U.S heavily armed the Israeli's and proactively took part in policies to ensure their well being. That of course led to an ethnic cleansing campaign by Israel post mandate, where palestinian village folk were lined up and killed to clear way for european jewish settlers (no different from cowboys and indians). While neighboring arabs cried foul for years and eventually took up arms, heavy intervention by the world police (U.S), insured that it would never materialize (due to the threat of using nukes etc...).

To this day Israel carries out policies of mass segregation, and economic bullying of palestinian territories, and its illegal settlers kill and torture adolescent Palestinians without any repercussions. This is not to mention that they illegally use chemical weapons like white phosphorus on docile Palestini populations.

Unfortunately my friend Israel represents God's good work as much as Nazi Germany or colonial Britain does.

All anti-Jewish lies and verbal juggling of nonsense. The opposite is true that the British mandate made it illegal for Jews to carry weapons; not the Arabs. On the contrary, just prior to their leaving the Land of Israel they trusted all their weapons to Jordan, knowing very well that they would fall in the hands of local Arabs as they, the British, knew that the job to exterminate the soon to rise State of Israel would be unavoidable. At least, they, the British, would not be charged with the slaughter of what remained from the Holocaust.

However, the time was for the Jews. The beloved aka the Land of Israel, could not stand any more to live without her lover, the Jewish People. We were so pauperized as weaponry was concerned to defend ourselves from being pushed into the sea that hundreds of Jewish volunteers in line to get some rifles to fight were told to fight with their own hands and take possession of arms left behind by Arabs running away for their lives. That's how we took possession of thousands of the enemy weapons and carried out the war to our advantage.

Now, here only in the last two months of July and August, we had about two thousand missiles shot into our Land by Hamas in Gaza as I eyewitnessed some of them crossing the skies of my place here in Ramat Gan. Were not for our "Kippat barzel" (defense missiles) God knows how many more of our People would we have lost. All for one reason only: Because they want the Jews out of the Middle East.

Well, I think that's enough and I suggest we should stop this discussion not only because it is a total deviation from the original thread but also a reason for a moderator to happen by and banish both of us.