What to do `In Remembrance'

Quote:
Originally Posted by b.finton
Y'shua's real name was probably Yahuchannan/John, the Essene teacher of righteousness, who predated the time period attributed to the gospels. This understanding goes far to explain the teaching in the epistles, "We preach the Anointed in a mystery: as liars, but true."

Thomas wrote:

I don't think that one flies. The Teacher of Righteousness spoke for an extreme separatist sect who observed strict rules of ritual purity. Our Lord broke all those rules and contended with those who observed the letter rather than the spirit of the law. The consensus among scholars is, I think, He was more likely a Pharisee.

If, as I believe, the ritual purity taught by the Essenes was spiritual, not carnal, you might find reason to reconsider. There are numerous statutes and ordinances in Torah that could not possibly be observed literally by a sect that had to hide their teachings from orthodoxy for their preservation. The law of Moses requires temple access and the participation of the priesthood, divided at that time between the two primary sects. The Essenes had no where to lay their heads.


Splitting hairs, as you said elsewhere in your reply, is what it's all about.

b.
 
I would add one thing, Thomas:

The man that said, "This is my body, blood: eat, drink," also said, "The words I speak to you are the Father's words."

b.
 
I was unclear when I wrote:

The law of Moses requires temple access and the participation of the priesthood, divided at that time between the two primary sects. The Essenes had no where to lay their heads.

I ought to have written, "Carnal/literal observance of the law of Moses..." etc.

No doubt from the time of the earliest biblical patriarchs, there are those who understood that Torah, in its highest sense, is spiritual; and that it's observances must also be spiritual to satisfy HaShem.

b.
 
It was a seder....you know that...prepare the room for the feast...the only question is was it the third cup of wine or the fourth?
Well as there's no mention of that, there's no reason to assume it's a seder, is there?

Wine and bread accompany every meal, therefore I don't jump to conclusions, I look for the evidence.

None of the elements of a seder are there.
Seder plate
Main article: Passover Seder Plate
The Passover Seder plate (ke'ara) is a special plate containing six symbolic foods used during the Passover Seder. Each of the six items arranged on the plate have special significance to the retelling of the story of the Exodus from Egypt. The seventh symbolic item used during the meal—a stack of three matzot—is placed on its own plate on the Seder table.
Where is the does Scripture speak of the Maror and Chazeret, Karpas, the salt water or vinegar, the roasted lamb or goat, the hard-boiled egg?

Where are the prayers and contemplation of the Exodus?

Instead, He talks about nothing but Himself! This isn't a seder at all, a Seder is all about the Exodus, not about 'me'.

We know what man said Jesus said...that is not in question.
Well it was when you started this dialogue. Have you come round to my way of thinking now? ;)

What is funny is I simply ask questions and state what I believe. What you believe is upto you.
No, I'm sure you imagine you do ... but if you retrace this thread, you questioned my beliefs, and then sought to show me I'm wrong.

You're still telling me I'm wrong, Wil. Just look at the seder comment above. You're the one wearing the 'my way of the highway' hat here.

You have issues with my beliefs....I don't care.
I have no interest in what you believe Wil. All I'm doing is pointing out that the evidence suggests there is no reason nor logic for why I shopuld be persuaded by you.

You started this Wil, it's your issue, not mine. I'm clear on what I believe.

I don't need to step on your beliefs to prop up mine.
Yet you have to try and knock them down.

I do appreciate your knowledge of your beliefs and scripture...and love that it supports and enforces my understandings.
Tautology ... sophistry ... this is tiresome, old chum.
 
If, as I believe, the ritual purity taught by the Essenes was spiritual, not carnal, you might find reason to reconsider.
I believe carnal practices are founded on spiritual rules, and that a spiritual rule that is not embodied is no rule, in my book.

I do accept that many of my assumptions about the Essenes have been shown to be unreliable, and probably false. Too much faith in Josephus on my part.

But we know so little about this sect to make any definitive statements, and I find not enough evidence to conflate Our Lord with the Teacher of Righteousness. Scholars agree it's impossible to say who he was, and I find it odd that as the title 'Teacher of Righteousness' is of Scriptural origin, and that if Our Lord was, then Matthew at least would have mentioned it, as yet another prophecy fulfilled in Christ.
 
No doubt from the time of the earliest biblical patriarchs, there are those who understood that Torah, in its highest sense, is spiritual; and that it's observances must also be spiritual to satisfy HaShem.
And not find their carnal expression? I don't think so. At least, that wouldn't have satisfied Our Lord.

When He speaks of those who are His flock, it's not because of their insight into spiritual matters. The Beatitudes testifies to that. And the parable of the widow at the temple, or the publican in the synagogue ... Christ is the Shepherd of 'The Little People'.

Those who understand 'in its highest sense' are called on communicate it to those who do not have the capacity to do so. To 'walk the walk', as they say, as well as 'talk the talk'.
 
No terribly-lengthy replies from me, I hope, wil. A few paragraphs, maybe, before they either get squirrelly, or just plain take too long ... :p

Of course, now that I've included a few things which we know Thomas will find superfluous, I will add the caveat that IF something has no relevance for you, it's probably best just to ignore it. After all, that's what we ALL do, either witting and awares, or simply by default. We simply DO NOT SEE the large, unfamiliar ships on the horizon, but it's not because they aren't there, let alone waiting full of smallpox to wipe us out upon contact. Fortunately, most of the space ships don't carry such disease, or intend any such conquest, nor do they intend to wipe away Earth['s] religions with one swift motion. But as I invoke the dates and `alternate presentations' of facts below, try and at least consider - yes, I might be correct. And yes, that WILL MEAN that you [some folks especially] will have some quick rewriting, and re-editing to do. No sweat, folks. I hear some of you - are pretty good at it, even make a living that way! ;)

Yes, I did mention the word liturgy, since most Christians do know something about covenants and sacraments ... but that's not really what was occurring to me as the rhyme came to mind. It's not that all of that isn't relevant. It's just that I think what Christ had in mind was - a wee bit simpler. Thomas, of all people, should understand this ... since you were emphasizing it on the Trimurti-Trinity thread a few days ago.

St. Paul's words to the people of Corinth do ring true, from the St. Augustine excerpt. Also note, Paul speaks of a progression in our learning, in our understanding, whereby having been *unprepared* and fed upon milk, we then become able to digest the real MEAT of the issue.

Nevermind that I like transposing letters and arriving at META. That's just me having a bit of fun and being - squirrelly. Still, Paul did remind us that we presently know "through a glass darkly," only to later understand `face to face.' And that goes hand in hand with the Sermon on the Mount, wherein we are told that "the pure of heart shall SEE God." Well it sure as heck changed - I mean literally changed Moses, whose visage was radiant after this encounter ...

Yes, it does seem that the `Teacher of Righteousness' was none other than Jesus. The time period is right [born ~105BCE, which is already 150 years INTO the Piscean Era of Dagon, Oannes, the `Fisher of Men'] ... and the various records support it. Alexander Jannaeus would have been in power, being the true Herod upon which the Biblical Herod is based - rather than either Antipas or his old man, `The Great.' Is that title sorta like Philip LE BEL, being so *fair* as to burn the Knights Templar at the stake? Methinks so ... along with a few undeserving titles that got associated with Popes [Pious, Clement, etc.]!

But of course, we must draw our own conclusions. The sincere, level-headed and earnest, truth-seeking scholar or aspirant cannot do herself a better favor than to borrow or procure a copy of Cyril Scott's `The Vision of the Nazarene' [1933] from Amazon. In this book you can do some catching up, and get a closer glimpse into the heart and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, the Galilean Master. You will, if you are astute, find several things which will confirm that the author is indeed, Jesus of Nazareth. Moreover, you will see mention of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were discovered in 1946 & '56 - as predicted in this book - only AFTER the book had been published. And sure enough, you will see that the `experts' and savants have, as predicted, only quibbled and harangued about the true nature, origin and significance of those texts, virtually rendering them useless save for the few with the `keys' to their understanding.

Want more Keys? Try `THE IMMORTAL' by J.J. Dewey, first volume free online, 2nd volume together with the first being published by a book of that title, available used - if you hunt around. `The Lost Key of the Buddha' - by the same author - follows in the series, and I am enjoying it, so far. In all of these volumes, the author `John Joseph' meets with John the Beloved Apostle, the Evangelist, and learns from him directly - face to face. John even brings his OWN copy of the Bible, helping J.J. Dewey to understand much which has been misinterpreted by modern Christianity. At the end of `The Immortal,' John has a direct encounter with God - but not surprisingly, cannot see God's face (yet). That particular chapter inspired me especially, and still moves me as I think about it, months later.

I highly recommend `The Immortal,' as well as J.J. Dewey's other works. An online discussion group can be perused, the postings being freely available. Folks, it's the real deal - but I must trust your OWN intuition to verify that - and remember: "There are none so blind as those who REFUSE to see." We all have that - umm, `right.' :eek:

So, what I meant by including the word liturgy is just that `in remembrance' is a familiar notion, familiar part of the Sunday service, for most Christians. The "do this" part is where I think people have become confused. Nothing wrong with a blessing at meals, or an acknowledgment of the love being baked into the bread we break. Yet I would submit that Christ enjoined us to do ALL THINGS "in remembrance."

Let me present the same idea another way, as I myself prefer to sometimes consider it ...

In Nov. of 1944 in a letter to a disciple [published in `Discipleship in the New Age, Vol. II'] the `Tibetan Teacher' as he is known to many, had this to say:
Endeavor always to live within the Ashram, which is insulated from glamor, and act "as if" the consciousness of the Ashram was intrinsically your consciousness. Go forth to the service which you are rendering "as if" you remained immovable in the Ashram; live always "as if" the eyes of the entire Ashram were upon you. For the remainder of your life let the esoteric philosophical concept "as if" actuate all you do. It is this constant awareness which the two words "as if" embody that will produce in you a fresh use of the creative imagination.​

If we allow it, the Christ does - truly and literally - GO WITH US ... in whatever we do, under whatever circumstances, so long as we are acting IN SERVICE, with purity of heart, mind and body ... or thought, word & action. One must understand that so to act is to become a mighty reservoir and conduit for the empowering and loving energies of the Master at the heart of the Ashram, which is also to say that we are agents - more or less intelligent & effective - for the distribution of the Living Light and Love of the Christ.

Ashram, used above, refers not to any particular group existing upon the physical plane, or even within the astral and mental spheres of activity. Rather, it is the abstract concept of the Sangha, as related in Buddhism, yet specifically it focuses upon the Buddhic world or plane of the Intuition ... and thus corresponds with true, Perfect Understanding, as invoked by the Christ in the phrase, "There is a Peace which passeth Understanding."

True Understanding, as anyone should realize, transcends the mind - and does not produce dissension or differing points of view, but rather, restores order & balance, eliminates confusion, and opens the door TO the Peace mentioned by the Christ.

"What did the Christ DO?" is a rhetorical question. Either we are focused, in meditation and contemplation, upon the living, loving acts of the Christ ... or else the Christ remains at best symbolic - and therefore, has not `taken incarnation directly' within our lives. The First Initiation is the result of this taking birth, and to such a great event, ALL MEN ARE CALLED. Our world itself, as a whole, is experiencing this Christ-Birth even as we live, and move, and have our being within IT ... within GOD. The Bible, of course, is one of many books which `says it's so' in plain English, since by Goodness, we all know that the words in red are the preserved, actual English spoken by the Son of God, etc.

Truly though, if some of the more impressive miracles are a bit beyond us at present, maybe we could just aim true - Sagittarius-like - for the confirmation [Initiation] in Capricorn, the pouring forth to our fellow men of the `Water of Life' in Aquarius, and trust firm that eventually, even the "turning back and Saving" of Humanity - as Christ illustrated in Pisces - WILL OCCUR, even for each of us, as we render in Loving Service all that has been asked of us and of our Christ-Nature ... for our Fellow Man.

Again, the focus on what Christ DID ... is rhetorical. We, none of us, will be done asking this question - and seeking to put our answers into greater practice - on the day we transition to the next world. And I'll suggest that even then our journey will be different in terms of scenery, while the mission itself evolves, holding to a central *theme*.

That's all that comes to mind at the moment ...

Namaskar :)
 
Originally Posted by wil
Not being Catholic, I am not allowed to take communion in your churches (or so I was instructed in my youth by Catholics).

Originally Posted by Thomas: Well that's not the case today. But we still ask that those who come forward don't treat it as lightly as you do. Don't regard it as nothing much at all.
________________________________________________________________________

Actually, Thomas that IS still true today. One of my dearest friends had his younger brother die quite suddenly. My friend's family is Italian and very Catholic. He asked if I could come to the service to support him. Of course I did so.

The service was very wonderful and I went into it intending to honor the service to honor my friend. I immersed myself into the experience as much as my limited experience allowed me to.

When it came time for the Eucharist I was fully prepared to come forward and take the wafer. Imagine my shock when the priest told the congregation that only those who serve Christ as a Catholic would be allowed to take of the Eucharist. That his faith did not allow non-Catholics to partake.

He did offer to give us a blessing instead if we desired to come forth. One had to cross one's arms over one's chest to signify that we were not of the faith. So I went for it. When it came my turn, I crossed my arms across my chest. The priest in the act of handing me the wafer stopped dead in his tracks, clearly perplexed.

Apparently either people go for the wafer or they just stay in their seat. But he recovered quickly and gave me a blessing of the Lord and I thanked him with a nod of my head, and the service continued onwards.

I was and remain shocked of this outcome. This is a huge Catholic church and community. Very modern. To be told I was not worthy really surprised me.
 
This is normal in every American Catholic church I have been in. Episcopalians have no issues, they encourage all to take communion.

In my church I regard communion...a statement of being in community, communing with others toward a common goal... peace on earth.... deeper understanding... knowing oneness with all.... I don't regard that as nothing at all.
 
The following seems logical to me:

Once we start deciding what Jesus did and didn't do ... or rather, that Jesus didn't do some of the things that Scripture said He did, then there's no logical reason to believe that He did any of it.

The first analogy that sprang to mind derives from my reading of Scripture: That the New Testament is a 'seamless garment', a rather symbolic way of saying 'all of a piece', it all points to the one primary conclusion: That Jesus Christ is the Son of God. How we interpret 'Son of God' is, of course, a whole other ballgame.

But my point is, once we break the integrity of the whole, then it starts to unravel, until we're left with nothing. Or the bit we choose to hold on to. Then we declare our 'bit' tells us the whole story!

But to continue in symbolic mode, this 'seamless garment' makes two appearances, first at the Transfiguration, and then at the Crucifixion.

Of the former, the tradition holds that the garment, white as snow, is the Law and the Prophets – the totality of the Revelation made known to Abraham and his seed – the 'outer form' of the Logos.

The same is said of the second garment (in all four gospels), if figuratively – it was after all a material garment with spiritual significance (the miracles attached to merely touching the cloth), whereas the Transfiguration garment is a spiritual garment with a physical significance – He didn't appear nude – but the point is, His garments are taken and He is abandoned to the Cross – we lose interest in knowing Him, fixated on possessing the bit that 'suits' us.
 
Thomas, that seems to be a nuclear approach....if some of it isn't true, none of it is true...

How many Miracles in Mathew Mark and Luke? vs John?

We know the story of the prostitute and him doodling in the sand was new....because we have older copies, we know some of Paul wasn't written by Paul.

The question is...are we seeking for truth and knowledge or simply trying to support something....

The rug isn't pulled out from under you when you discover the books are NOT historical fact but metaphor, myth, allegory, parables, metaphysics meant to be interpreted...quite the opposite....they come alive. Who cares what happened or didn't happen in relation to our belief of what is possible?
 
For me there is no importance in the facts of Scripture. it's a classic Schrodinger's cat for me, so I have to lay the importance where it doesn't matter what is fact. Did he raise the dead? It seems impossible, but it's suppose to be miracle and I sure wasn't there. But the fact that it says he did, allegorically or no, and that a lot of people believed and believe that he did says a lot about Christianity. I see no reason to dismiss any off it.
 
Thomas, that seems to be a nuclear approach....if some of it isn't true, none of it is true...
Sorry, perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough.

I'm not looking at the conclusion, I'm looking at the process.
 
But the fact that it says he did, allegorically or no, and that a lot of people believed and believe that he did says a lot about Christianity. I see no reason to dismiss any off it.
Quite. And I see no reason why, if you choose not to dismiss it, that you should become a Catholic. I think a lot of people here are frightened of accepting the logic of my argument because they think I'm trying to convert them. I'm not.

I was told on my degree course that a 'foremost authority' on Thomas Aquinas was an atheist! My course director, who was no mean philosopher himself, met the guy and asked: 'Why Thomas?' 'Because,' the guy said, 'there is no better exemplar of the Aristotelian method than Thomas. But just because the man argues his case brilliantly, doesn't mean I am obliged to believe in his God.'
 
Quite. And I see no reason why, if you choose not to dismiss it, that you should become a Catholic. I think a lot of people here are frightened of accepting the logic of my argument because they think I'm trying to convert them. I'm not.

I was told on my degree course that a 'foremost authority' on Thomas Aquinas was an atheist! My course director, who was no mean philosopher himself, met the guy and asked: 'Why Thomas?' 'Because,' the guy said, 'there is no better exemplar of the Aristotelian method than Thomas. But just because the man argues his case brilliantly, doesn't mean I am obliged to believe in his God.'

No, I have never feel that you have even encouraged me, or anyone else, to join any church or accept everything you believe as a whole. I think you reason within a certain set of parameters leaving all else for other discussions. This makes it much easier for me to follow your logic, because you make the parameters so clear.

Cheers Tomas
 
... it's a classic Schrodinger's cat for me ...
Synchronicity!

D'you know last night I was thinking about this discussion, and the analogy I used was just that one.

Take one of the seven 'signs' recorded in John: the man born blind. The miracle and its discourse occupies two whole chapters (9 & 10). It starts off with Our Lord performing a miracle, and ends up with His doubters trying to stone Him.

The testimony of the man himself, as reported by John, is lucid:
"They (Our Lord's accusers) said then to him (the man born blind): What did he (Our Lord) to thee? How did he open thy eyes? He answered them: I have told you already, and you have heard: why would you hear it again? will you also become his disciples? They reviled him therefore, and said: Be thou his disciple; but we are the disciples of Moses. We know that God spoke to Moses: but as to this man, we know not from whence he is. The man answered, and said to them: Why, herein is a wonderful thing, that you know not from whence he is, and he hath opened my eyes." (John 9:26-30 my emphasis).

The meaning of this discourse is in Schrodinger's box. It is either materially true – the man was blind in every sense, but now is healed in every aspect of his being, or metaphorically true – in which case his understanding is enlightened but his being, his actuality in the world, (and by extension the whole material Cosmos) remains unaltered. Nothing has changed materially, only psychically. But man is both spirit and matter; 'a living (that is, in the world) soul'.

(And we must allow other realities: such as none of it is true. The whole thing's a myth. There never actually was a man born blind who had his sight restored, spiritual or otherwise. It's a construct. And a 'gnostic' reading. Or that the man, or John, was lying ... and so on.)

But the discourse asserts the literal is true, as well as the spiritual.

The difference is, in Schrodinger's case, we're discussing the material of the cat. The question is: It is alive, or is it dead. We have to hold both views. There are two possible states for the cat. We don't know until we open the box.

In John's case, we're discussing the meaning, not the materiality, of what is in the box. The question is then, will we allow the possible states outlined above. (There are others, but that's not the point.)

It seems reasonable to me to say that if pre-suppose to disallow one or more possible states, without sufficient reason (the cat can't have died this quick, it was alive just a moment ago, or that there was a toxin in the box), then we are inventing 'reasons' and have pre-supposed the outcome either way, and missing the whole point of the exercise.

By the same token, it seems reasonable to me to say that if we allow all possible states – then the principle of Ockham's Razor suggests that the literal meaning of the text is the most likely and that we have to produce sufficient reason to dismiss it. If we allow a miracle, then that means God can heal the body as well as the soul. God can heal the whole person. One's whole being. We are not whole beings in a body, our bodies are the actual (material) presence of our being in the Cosmos. Without a body, we don't 'exist' to this world, ad are incomplete. Men are not angels.

So what one believes, determines what one can know, and that determines an outcome of a completely different order.
 
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