Did he die for our sins?

[Shibolet]

He also forgave sin, offered His own addenda to sacred texts, and did all manner of things that were clear indications, to His audience, that He was claiming His divinity. Only God can forgive sin, and yet Jesus forgives ...

No Thomas, he did not. The opposite is rather true that once he instructed his audience that whoever went to the Temple to plead for the forgiveness of his sins and, all of a sudden, remembered to have offended some one else, he was to leave all behind and go set things right with whoever he had offended, and only then, return to proceed with his prayers. Otherwise, God would not even listen to what he had to say. (Mat. 5:23,24) All other references to Jesus forgiving sins, in the NT, is not about Jesus the Jew but the "Christ" of Paul. Don't forget that the NT is the gospel of Paul, although I did find 20% of it about Jesus and his gospel.

Jesus never claimed divinity or that he was son of God. He knew as a Jew that the son of God is Israel. So, as part of Israel, yes, he was son of God.
"Israel is My son; so let My son go that he may serve Me." (Exo. 4:22,23) The idea that Jesus was divine or son of God on an individual basis was fabricated by Paul which was what almost caused Paul to be killed for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (Acts 9:20)

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

So basically you're here to tell all the Christians here that their religion is invalid and false? Not very interfaith of you.

 

[Shibolet]

So basically you're here to tell all the Christians here that their religion is invalid and false? Not very interfaith of you.

What is to be interfaith COT, to agree with every thing every one says? Listen my friend, knowledge is all that life is about. There is no learning in the chit-tattering of common beliefs. The only method to learn is through controversy. The wealth of Judaism has come as a result of the controversy between Hillel and Shamai, two famous Rabbis of the First Century who produced the Talmud.

You must not worry because what I am bringing is no different from what Jesus taught. I hope you agree that he was a Jew whose Faith was Judaism and that he came to confirm his Faith down to the letter, even the dot of the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

What is to be interfaith COT, to agree with every thing every one says?

I think there is a middle ground.

Listen my friend, knowledge is all that life is about.

Not for me.

There is no learning in the chit-tattering of common beliefs. The only method to learn is through controversy.

Not for me.

I hope you agree that he was a Jew whose Faith was Judaism and that he came to confirm his Faith down to the letter, even the dot of the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

I understand that he was raised as a Jew, I don't know the details separating Christianity and Judaism very well so I don't have an opinion on that. I know several Christians that agrees that he confirmed what previous prophets thought but also added new revelations. I don't know that one precludes the other.

 

[Thomas]

No Thomas, he did not.

Yes, Shibolet, He did. The Gospels say so, and record the fact that he was accused of blasphemy because of it.

All other references to Jesus forgiving sins, in the NT, is not about Jesus the Jew but the "Christ" of Paul. Don't forget that the NT is the gospel of Paul, although I did find 20% of it about Jesus and his gospel.

I am always amazed at how people find what they're looking for.

Jesus never claimed divinity or that he was son of God.

Oh, tosh. Again ... then why did His audience seek to stone Him for just that blasphemy?

 

[Thomas]

What is to be interfaith COT, to agree with every thing every one says?

No. It's the effort to understand the other.

Listen my friend, knowledge is all that life is about.

I rather think 'being' is all that life is about.

The only method to learn is through controversy.

That may be your experience, but that's unfortunate. There are other, less confrontational and combative ways.

I hope you agree that he was a Jew whose Faith was Judaism and that he came to confirm his Faith down to the letter, even the dot of the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

I do indeed. I also believe His faith is in the Spirit of the letter. Not in the letter of the letter.

That Love balances the Law.

 

[wil]

What is to be interfaith COT, to agree with every thing every one says? Listen my friend, knowledge is all that life is about. There is no learning in the chit-tattering of common beliefs. The only method to learn is through controversy. The wealth of Judaism has come as a result of the controversy between Hillel and Shamai, two famous Rabbis of the First Century who produced the Talmud.

You must not worry because what I am bringing is no different from what Jesus taught. I hope you agree that he was a Jew whose Faith was Judaism and that he came to confirm his Faith down to the letter, even the dot of the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

he argued the letter...working on the sabbath... change in dietary restrictions...

 

[Shibolet]

I understand that he was raised as a Jew, I don't know the details separating Christianity and Judaism very well so I don't have an opinion on that. I know several Christians that agrees that he confirmed what previous prophets thought but also added new revelations. I don't know that one precludes the other.

Jesus was not only raised as a Jew but also he was born a Jew. To be Jewish is to be born of a Jewish mother, circumcised on the 8th day of life and to live as a Jew.

As a loyal Jew, Jesus could not have added any thing extra to the Scriptures he always referred to as the Word of God. He would have contradicted Deuteronomy 4:2 not to add or to diminish from it.

Bottom line COT, you still have to learn quite a lot of both the Tanach and your NT to make sure you are speaking the truth. "The Law and the Prophets, if you don't speak thus, there is no truth in what you say. (Isa. 8:20) Stick around; I have read your book more than several times.

 

[Shibolet]

Yes, Shibolet, He did. The Gospels say so, and record the fact that he was accused of blasphemy because of it.

I am always amazed at how people find what they're looking for.

Oh, tosh. Again ... then why did His audience seek to stone Him for just that blasphemy?

No Thomas, he did not. The gospels were written by Hellenists former disciples of Paul about 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. And they wrote by hearsay and the intent to enhance the Church of Paul. (Acts 11:26)

The kind of people who usually find what they are looking for are those who teach the Truth according to the Law and the Prophets. (Isa. 8:20)

Jesus' audience never sought to stone him. Paul was the one who even almost got killed for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (Acts 9;20; 29) The Apostles of Jesus were headquartered in Jerusalem. How could they be allowed to preach the gospel of Jesus without being stoned? You have to seek for sense where it makes.

 

[Shibolet]

No. It's the effort to understand the other.

Yeah, I do understand you but I don't have to agree with you.

I rather think 'being' is all that life is about.

Being without knowledge is not different from the irrational animal.

That may be your experience, but that's unfortunate. There are other, less confrontational and combative ways.

Controversy does not have to be through combative ways.

I do indeed. I also believe His faith is in the Spirit of the letter. Not in the letter of the letter.

Whatever you mean by that, read Matthew 5:17-19. Jesus fulfilled and confirmed all the Law and the Prophets down to the letter, so that we all could do the same. This is to live according to the Spirit of the letter and how we all do. Sorry but, "letter of the letter" makes no sense.

That Love balances the Law.

That love confirms the Law.

 

[Shibolet]

he argued the letter...working on the sabbath... change in dietary restrictions...

Not Jesus Wil, but Paul. He was the one responsible for the changes in God's Law and the gospel writers years later added from Paul to make of Jesus the responsible for the changes. Read Romans 14:5,6 and Colossians 2:16,17.

 

[wil]

So you are saying Jesus did not argue about what is work on the sabbath?

 

[Shibolet]

So you are saying Jesus did not argue about what is work on the sabbath?

No, Jesus was a Jewish man and not a Hellenist Gentile. The problem with the Jewish Sabbath was an argument related to the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. Paul hated Judaism and, his main intent was to vandalize it with the antidote of his gospel.

 

[wil]

So you are saying the quotes of Jesus in Mat, mark luke and John are Pauline shills?

This could be where you had walled garden issues previously....

 

[Thomas]

Oh, this is interesting ...

One person who cherry-picks Scripture, and makes up a backstory that coincides with his presuppositions, in dialogue with another person who cherry-picks Scripture, and makes up a backstory that coincides with his presuppositions ...

Knowing both, looks like the irresistible force has met the immovable object.

 

[wil]

and a third who cherry picks scripture and has a backstory created in whole cloth kabittzes.....

Now I will be told how i should not take what was said as any kind of insult, but should refrain from using that same sword...

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

and a third who cherry picks scripture and has a backstory created in whole cloth kabittzes.....

Now I will be told how i should not take what was said as any kind of insult, but should refrain from using that same sword...

Aren't you very open that you cherry-pick, I was under the impression that you thought that was a good thing?

 

[wil]

Oh, I've got no issues....I've just yet to meet the person that doesn't.

If you quote one scripture, they'll gladly quote another and discount the first, all while getting hypocritically pissed at you for cherry picking...

I rather like cherries, quite flavorful, dealing with the pits and stains are another matter altogether.

 

[Thomas]

Oh, I've got no issues....I've just yet to meet the person that doesn't.

Er ... I don't. I don't think Catholics do, or Orthodox ... N.T. Wright's Anglican, and he doesn't. Nor does the Lutheran Bonhoffer.

In fact, I can think of a long list of names of those who don't.

Once again, Wil, you're judging everyone by your own standard: 'I do, therefore everyone does'.

If you quote one scripture, they'll gladly quote another and discount the first, all while getting hypocritically pissed at you for cherry picking...

See, that's precisely what you do, and we don't. Now I know this really pisses you off, but if you could provide evidence, rather than just running everyone down ... I can list your favourite picks, if you like, and demonstrate lack of context, literal interpretation ... all the things you accuse others of doing to validate you're doing it yourself.

I rather like cherries, quite flavorful, dealing with the pits and stains are another matter altogether.

Yeah ... whatever ...

 

[Shibolet]

So you are saying the quotes of Jesus in Mat, mark luke and John are Pauline shills?

This could be where you had walled garden issues previously....

Yes, based on the Logic that Jews would not write against Judaism.