Did he die for our sins?

muhammad_isa

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...
3. Do you think that the understanding of all Christian denominations of some things in their Bible is wrong?

4. Do you think that the understanding of all branches of Islam of some things in the Quran is wrong?

3. Well, as I think that the Bible is not entirely accurate, it is difficult to be "spot on", but I agree with many Christians
on the major points.

4. Mankind is imperfect. Again, I agree with many Muslims on the major points.

I haven't given much away, have I.. ;)
 

seattlegal

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All the prophets had "authority from the Father"..

..I don't particularly like dogma, be it Christian or Islamic.
It is a source of division.

What practical difference does it make whether you believe that "Jesus died for our sins" or not??
We can still pray to G-d .. still ask for forgiveness.
If you want forgiveness, you must be willing to forgive others as well, because hatred does not overcome hatred--it only propagates more hatred. Hatred is overcome by non-hate. When you are full of hatred, you are in a living hell. The only way out is to stop hating. If you need god's help to stop hating, by all means, ask for the help you need.
 

muhammad_isa

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If you want forgiveness, you must be willing to forgive others as well, because hatred does not overcome hatred..
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us;

...

Don't you think I know? :)
 

dattaswami2

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A thought was posed....

First of all G!d of all eternity spends 33 years on earth....not he, but a physical representation of he.... 33 years a blink of an eye to eternity...

Then he dies for our sins...

Well he was gonna die anyway right? 66 years, 33 years...he was gonna return...

But then he didn't die... death had zero effect on him.....

And then he returned from whence he came....



So where is the sacrifice?


Serious question.
Holy Jesus suffered for the sins of the real believers of God only. One of the basic ideas of the human incarnation is to suffer for the sins of deserving devotees. The human body is selected for incarnation for this very purpose. The human body of the incarnation suffers like any other human body. Then alone is the real transfer of sins fully justified. The incarnation can avoid the pain during suffering devotees’ sins by using the super power of God. But God never deceives justice. Therefore Jesus really suffered all the punishments of deserving devotees as any other human body suffers and fulfilled the justice in the transfer of sins. This is the real reason why God selects a human body and gets identified with it. If it is an inert statue, such transfer of suffering cannot take place.

Although the Son is suffering on the Holy Cross, actually it is the Father who pervaded all over the Son that suffered. This is the essence of saying that Father and Son are one and the same.

The Father does not suffer the sins of wicked people who will not change at all. Those who are the real devotees and those who have served the Lord without aspiring for anything in return are only liberated from their sins. Such devotees never pray to the Lord for liberation from their sins because they never desire that the Lord should suffer for their sins. Therefore, they never agree to the liberation from their sins. If they come to know, they will object to such a transfer of sins because they are the real devotees of God. Hence the Lord suffers for their sins without revealing it to them. If you do not turn to the Lord, you have to carry all your sins with you and go to hell. If you turn towards the Lord, He will liberate you from all your sins provided you change and continue the rest of your life in His divine service.

His work is to bring peace in this world and see that every human being gets salvation. He wants hell to be permanently closed. But you should turn towards God without aspiring for liberation from your sins. You must participate in His service and yet you should be ready to undergo the punishments of your sins as per the rule. You should not ask Him or even desire for such liberation from your sins. Once you desire for such liberation, you are indirectly asking the Lord to suffer for your sins. In such a case, you are not His real devotee. He takes your sins and liberates you only when you serve Him without any aspiration for such liberation.
 

Longfellow

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Holy Jesus suffered for the sins of the real believers of God only. One of the basic ideas of the human incarnation is to suffer for the sins of deserving devotees. The human body is selected for incarnation for this very purpose. The human body of the incarnation suffers like any other human body. Then alone is the real transfer of sins fully justified. The incarnation can avoid the pain during suffering devotees’ sins by using the super power of God. But God never deceives justice. Therefore Jesus really suffered all the punishments of deserving devotees as any other human body suffers and fulfilled the justice in the transfer of sins. This is the real reason why God selects a human body and gets identified with it. If it is an inert statue, such transfer of suffering cannot take place.

Although the Son is suffering on the Holy Cross, actually it is the Father who pervaded all over the Son that suffered. This is the essence of saying that Father and Son are one and the same.

The Father does not suffer the sins of wicked people who will not change at all. Those who are the real devotees and those who have served the Lord without aspiring for anything in return are only liberated from their sins. Such devotees never pray to the Lord for liberation from their sins because they never desire that the Lord should suffer for their sins. Therefore, they never agree to the liberation from their sins. If they come to know, they will object to such a transfer of sins because they are the real devotees of God. Hence the Lord suffers for their sins without revealing it to them. If you do not turn to the Lord, you have to carry all your sins with you and go to hell. If you turn towards the Lord, He will liberate you from all your sins provided you change and continue the rest of your life in His divine service.

His work is to bring peace in this world and see that every human being gets salvation. He wants hell to be permanently closed. But you should turn towards God without aspiring for liberation from your sins. You must participate in His service and yet you should be ready to undergo the punishments of your sins as per the rule. You should not ask Him or even desire for such liberation from your sins. Once you desire for such liberation, you are indirectly asking the Lord to suffer for your sins. In such a case, you are not His real devotee. He takes your sins and liberates you only when you serve Him without any aspiration for such liberation.

Source: https://www.speakingtree.in/blog/holy-jesus-suffered-for-his-devotees-only/m-lite
 

Longfellow

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My own personal belief is, that you can pray to God, ask to be forgiven and receive salvation. I'd even take it a step further and say, it may well be possible in certain cases to receive forgiveness without even asking or believing in God for that matter. However, I also believe it was Jesus dying on the cross that made all that possible.

Consider, Jesus' decent into hell afterward. Yes, many schools of thought on that too, but many believe he was there to save lost souls having departed prior. If that's true, evidently that wasn't an option before. Consider too, Jesus telling the repentant thief crucified next to him, that he would see him in heaven.

The impact of the crucifixion and subsequent resurrection, is far reaching, well beyond religious belief and perspective, IMO.

I'm not sure what to think about the death of Jesus as a sacrifice for the sins of all people. I'm thinking that might have been invented by Paul, and not a part of the gospel of Jesus at all. Even so, I do think that the way Jesus died plays some kind of unique role in salvation, that applies only to the Jesus of the gospels and not to any other prophet or messenger. I just don't think that anyone has to believe that, or believe that He was resurrected, or believe that He is God or the Son of God, or even believe in God, to be saved.
 

wil

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a figment of your imagination
Can you please read my reply and comment on the content of the reply the we can have a good discussion ...kindly consider this...
Really? You cut and paste and regurgitate old material as a response to a post and expect us to respect that?

I say start your own forum with your devotees bud.
 

Thomas

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... the whole work of creation ...
OK. Got you now.

The above statement is OK, nothing wrong with it.

...as do I thinking about "a single common operation of all three divine persons" ...
That's easy. One mission, three undertakings. The Father owns the mission, if you like, the Son undertakes the mission, the Spirit vivifies the mission ...

it isn't rational that one divine person prays to another divine person, but it is a single common operation.
It is just gobdigook.
He's human and divine ... we've discussed this, and you know it. This, then, is spoken from the aspect of His humanity. Why? To show us something ... we need lessons on how to pray, He doesn't.

I can't believe in irrational concept.
Oh, don't be ridiculous, you're a Muslim, of course you can!

It's just that you defend Islam as rational, where as others see it quite otherwise.

I mean, Islam believes in the Virgin Birth; believes that Jesus was born to Mary by the will of the Lord ... and then when we say, 'But d'you think, because Jesus was born without a human father, from a virgin mother, by the will of God, that perhaps that makes Him unique?' You say 'Nope.'
How irrational is that? :rolleyes:

+++
 

muhammad_isa

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He's human and divine ... we've discussed this, and you know it..
Yes, I know you think he's human & divine.
..but what do you mean by "divine" .. made of the "same substance" as God [the Father} ?
..and what "substance" is that, pray tell? :)

Oh, don't be ridiculous, you're a Muslim, of course you can!
I'll ignore that, if I may..
 

muhammad_isa

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That's easy. One mission, three undertakings. The Father owns the mission, if you like, the Son undertakes the mission, the Spirit vivifies the mission ...
That I can understand, and is not irrational.
..but..

"The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" are not names for different parts of God, but one name for God because three persons exist in God as one entity. They cannot be separate from one another. Each person is understood as having the identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.
-wiki Trinity -

If they are not separate from one another, a whole load of contradictions arise..
..such as:
36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
- Matthew 24 -
 

Thomas

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...but what do you mean by "divine"
He is God.

.. made of the "same substance" as God [the Father} ?
..and what "substance" is that, pray tell? :)
The correct technical term is 'consubstantial' (as per the Nicene Creed). The original Greek term is ὁμοούσιος (homoousios) and means "same substance." This contrasts with the term ὁμοιούσιος (homoiousios), meaning "of like substance" – the distinction is that the simple English 'same substance' could be misread to mean two substances of equal nature, that is, two gods, whereas the word "consubstantial", means one and the same.

The Council of Chalcedon (451) went on to declare: "consubstantial with the Father in respect of the Godhead, and the same consubstantial with us in respect of the manhood".

Furthermore the Holy Spirit is also consubstantial with the Father and Son.

No doubt you'll find that illogical, but don't sweat it, it's not easy, but then neither is particle physics, even with proof and evidence.

I'll ignore that, if I may..
Too tricky for you? :rolleyes: It's a simple question.

My point: There are elements in every Faith that outsiders will find illogical ... indeed, many find an Abrahamic belief in God illogical, irrational, etc.

If you think Islam is entirely logical, that's a statement of faith – others find its fundamental premise to be irrational – you can't prove the logic, because it rests on Revelation.

+++

I get that you don't believe in what I believe.

Please don't offend our beliefs or insult our intelligence by insisting they're illogical or irrational, and I'll refrain from showing how your argument cuts both ways.
 

Thomas

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If they are not separate from one another, a whole load of contradictions arise...
OK ... they do for you, they don't for me, nor for the rest of Christendom.

This is just more of the same. Please see the last elements of #116
 
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