Did he die for our sins?

muhammad_isa said:
My sins aren't automatically forgiven ..
Click to expand...
Of course not. Where did you get that idea? I still have to invite and surrender to Christ. But Christ can and does forgive sin, by his sacrifice. No other 'prophet' forgives sin
 
muhammad_isa said:
Prophets don't forgive sins .. only G-d alone can do that. [or "Our Father"]
..and in my understanding, G-d is not a person. He is not a soul etc.
Click to expand...
Christ forgives sin. He has authority from the Father (from before time began).. Do you dispute that Christ forgives sin? Muhammad (pbuh) does not forgive sin
 
Last edited:
RJM said:
Christ forgives sin. He has authority from the Father (from before time began)..
Click to expand...
All the prophets had "authority from the Father"..

..I don't particularly like dogma, be it Christian or Islamic.
It is a source of division.

What practical difference does it make whether you believe that "Jesus died for our sins" or not??
We can still pray to G-d .. still ask for forgiveness.
 
muhammad_isa said:
All the prophets had "authority from the Father
Click to expand...
Did they all sacrifice their lives as the lamb of God, to take away the sins of the world, and to end blood sacrifice forever? Do you deny that's how the gospel tells it? Or is that gospel passage corrupted -- because you don't like it?
muhammad_isa said:
.I don't particularly like dogma, be it Christian or Islamic.
It is a source of division.
Click to expand...
Then why do YOU harp on dogma all the time?
muhammad_isa said:
What practical difference does it make whether you believe that "Jesus died for our sins" or not??
Click to expand...
There is more to the incarnation and crucifixion and resurrection than just that. There are ever deeper levels of understanding Christ. Great people have spent their lives considering the mysteries.

The problem is you don't want to know or understand any deep wisdom of Christ; you don't want to have to bother about thinking deeply about Christ -- you just want everything nice and simple, cut and dried, binary black or white, yes or no, a set of rules to follow or get punished -- told what to eat and what to wear -- just like a child. I refuse to engage further on your level. Nobody cares whether or not you want to believe in the orthodox Jesus Christ. It's your own life. It's nobody else's problem that you don't like their beliefs.

The problem is that when people try to explain the depth and mystery of their beliefs, you toss it out as gobbledegook, and tell them they should believe as you do. It's pearls before swine. Others do not treat your own depth of belief with the same lack of respect.

We've been down this road too many times @muhammad_isa
No more answers to posts directed at me
 
Last edited:
RJM said:
I refuse to engage further on your level.
...
No more answers to posts directed at me
Click to expand...
Calm down, my brother :)

I do not tell anybody to believe as I do.
I just explain what I believe and why..

..and I assume that, as you haven't answered it, there is no difference between
believing that "Jesus died for our sins" or not..
..G-d can forgive anybody He wants to, and punish anybody He wants to.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Calm down, my brother :)

I do not tell anybody to believe as I do.
I just explain what I believe and why..

..and I assume that, as you haven't answered it, there is no difference between
believing that "Jesus died for our sins" or not..
..G-d can forgive anybody He wants to, and punish anybody He wants to.
Click to expand...
It's been explained. It's just not the black or white answer you want. If you want to rubbish Christian belief you at least need to read the gospels instead of pasting instant answers from Wikipedia, so you know a little bit what you're talking about -- if you want to understand the depth of Christ. Pearls before swine.

You would expect someone to know the Quran before challenging your deeply held beliefs? Yet you want to debate the depth of Christian mystery. It's insulting of others' intelligence.

It's about discussion and learning, not about preaching and insulting the beliefs of others. You should get it by now
 
Last edited:
RJM said:
It's about discussion and learning, not about preaching and insulting the beliefs of others. You should get it by now
Click to expand...
I got it a long time ago, but I'm not sure that you have..

Christianity does not belong to anybody. I find the majority [ trinitarians ], often don't accept that.
We are all entitled to believe what we like.
We can discuss these things in a reasonable manner.

If I say that something is nonsense or gobldigook, then that it is how I see it.
If you think otherwise, you can either ignore it, or explain to me why it isn't.

Jews insist on Moses being special
Muslims insist on Muhammad being special.
Christians insist on Jesus being special.

Me? I think Almighty God is special. :D
 
muhammad_isa said:
Jews insist on Moses being special
Muslims insist on Muhammad being special.
Christians insist on Jesus being special.
Me? I think Almighty God is special
Click to expand...
But belief in Muhammad (pbuh) is the correct belief, and all his words are the true word of Almighty God? Where others differ, they are wrong?

@muhammad_isa
Just answer the question. You like simplicity: yes or no should be enough.

Just be honest that in your world the Quran HAS TO BE TRUE, and so it does not matter what responses you get, you have to disregard them -- not because you cannot grasp their meaning, but because your own religion forbids you to ...
 
Last edited:
RJM said:
But belief in Muhammad (pbuh) is the correct belief, and all his te cl
@muhammad_isa
Just answer the question. You like simplicity: yes or no should be enough.

Just be honest that in your world the Quran HAS TO BE TRUE, and so it does not matter what responses you get, you have to disregard them -- not because you cannot grasp their meaning, but because your own religion forbids you to ...
Click to expand...
No ! That is not how my mind works. I do not believe something because I have to.

I do not see "belief in Muhammad" as the correct belief.
I respect all three .. Jews, Muslims and Christians.

.."born again" effectively means that one "wipes the slate clean",
and without any preconceived ideas or tribal affinities, decides on what to believe,
and what not to believe .. without any thought of worldly gain.

I accept the Bible AND Qur'an as being true.
I have been opening the Bible every week on my prayer meetings at the ecumenical centre.

I know you don't think you can believe both to be true .. but that is because you don't agree with
the Qur'an. I know you have your reasons .. and Almighty God knows what is in our minds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM
muhammad_isa said:
I know you don't think you can believe both to be true .. but that is because you don't agree with
the Qur'an.
Click to expand...
I think the gospel Jesus goes outside the box of the Quran Jesus. I believe the Quran Jesus is limited, perhaps in the same way Newton is limited compared to Einstein.
 
muhammad_isa said:
I accept the Bible AND Qur'an as being true.
Click to expand...

I have four questions.

1. Is there anything that today’s Jewish and Christian Bibles say, that you think is not true?

2. Is there anything that today’s Muslim Quran says, that you think is not true?

3. Do you think that the understanding of all Christian denominations of some things in their Bible is wrong?

4. Do you think that the understanding of all branches of Islam of some things in the Quran is wrong?
 
Last edited:
Longfellow said:
I have three questions.

1. Is there anything that today’s Jewish and Christian Bibles say, that you think is not true?

2. Is there anything that today’s Muslim Quran says, that you think is not true?
Click to expand...

1. Yes .. the Bible is a collection of scrolls [writings] of various ages.
They are basically true, but not always accurate.
Hence there are a few contradictions, imo.

2. I believe that the Qur'an is the literal word of God. Translations are problematic.
Knowledge of classical Arabic is an advantage, but not absolutely necessary.
 
muhammad_isa said:
We can still pray to G-d .. still ask for forgiveness.
Click to expand...
My own personal belief is, that you can pray to God, ask to be forgiven and receive salvation. I'd even take it a step further and say, it may well be possible in certain cases to receive forgiveness without even asking or believing in God for that matter. However, I also believe it was Jesus dying on the cross that made all that possible.

Consider, Jesus' decent into hell afterward. Yes, many schools of thought on that too, but many believe he was there to save lost souls having departed prior. If that's true, evidently that wasn't an option before. Consider too, Jesus telling the repentant thief crucified next to him, that he would see him in heaven.

The impact of the crucifixion and subsequent resurrection, is far reaching, well beyond religious belief and perspective, IMO.
 
muhammad_isa said:
1. Yes .. the Bible is a collection of scrolls [writings] of various ages.
They are basically true, but not always accurate.
Hence there are a few contradictions, imo.

2. I believe that the Qur'an is the literal word of God. Translations are problematic.
Knowledge of classical Arabic is an advantage, but not absolutely necessary.
Click to expand...

Okay, thanks.:)

I added two more questions to my post.
 
Namaste Jesus said:
My own personal belief is, that you can pray to God, ask to be forgiven and receive salvation. I'd even take it a step further and say, it may well be possible in certain cases to receive forgiveness without even asking or believing in God for that matter. However, I also believe it was Jesus dying on the cross that made all that possible.
Click to expand...

Wow. More good news for me, that you can believe all that at the same time. I wasn’t sure I would ever find anyone else besides me who could think that way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top