The Ultimate Evidence of God

[Shibolet]

The Ultimate Evidence of God

In 1922 the Theory of the big bang was the gift Science needed to break up with Aristotle that the universe was infinite. It was the gift of a Theist, George Lemaitre: The universe did have its beginning.

Now, the point is to demonstrate what or who caused the universe to begin because from the logical point of view, the universe could not have caused itself to exist. Simply because being the universe composed of matter and matter cannot cause itself to exist, the Primal Cause has ultimately become obvious.

Now, to all atheists, I have the following message: I am ready to give you the benefit of the doubt and probably even my word that I am ready to change my views about the uiverse if there is one that believes the universe caused itself to exist. If the answer stands the screening of Logic, my proposal is as good as gold that I'll be no longer a theist.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

The assumption here is that there was nothing before the Bang?

 

[Marcialou]

The Ultimate Evidence of God


Now, to all atheists, I have the following message: I am ready to give you the benefit of the doubt and probably even my word that I am ready to change my views about the uiverse if there is one that believes the universe caused itself to exist. If the answer stands the screening of Logic, my proposal is as good as gold that I'll be no longer a theist.

Shibolet,

I agree that common sense dictates that the universe couldn't create itself, so I imagine that something created it. But theoretically, that something could simply be a force, like gravity, and as sentient as a rock. We don't have to assume it has the traits usually associated with God.

So how did the Big Bang occur and why? My answer is that I don't know.

 

[wil]

one of the theories of the big bang is the growing and shrinking universe continually rebanging....

 

[Gordian Knot]

Shib. You have made a determination that 'the universe could not have caused itself to exist'. Your determination is based on lack of knowledge, or faulty knowledge. This is an all too common problem with theists. They don't (or won't) take the time to learn the science, then make broad claims, like yours, that are based on ignorance.

Bizarre as it may sound, in quantum physics, subatomic particles seem to be able to pop into existence out of nothing. They do not exist, then they do. In theory therefor, it is not impossible for the universe to pop into existence from nothing with the Big Bang.

No one is saying that IS what happened. Cosmologists are saying it is a possibility. That it doesn't seem to make any sense is not the fault of the cosmos. There are many things that don't make any sense that are never the less proven to be true.

Secondly, what on Earth (or any place else for that matter) does atheists have to do with the discussion????? You think only atheists believe in a self propagating universe? Again your information is faulty.

So you are now ready to give up being a theist? I have given you proof that something can come from nothing. And please do not take my word for it. Do the research and you will see that what I have stated here is current thinking amongst quantum physicists.

 

[Shibolet]

The assumption here is that there was nothing before the Bang?

Does it mean that the hat of the magician was too full and the birds and rabbits had to jump out and fly all over? I know, rabbits don't fly but they took advantage of the scarring birds and found a way out of the hat in several directions. Embarrassing isn't it?

 

[Shibolet]

Shib. You have made a determination that 'the universe could not have caused itself to exist'. Your determination is based on lack of knowledge, or faulty knowledge. This is an all too common problem with theists. They don't (or won't) take the time to learn the science, then make broad claims, like yours, that are based on ignorance.

Bizarre as it may sound, in quantum physics, subatomic particles seem to be able to pop into existence out of nothing. They do not exist, then they do. In theory therefor, it is not impossible for the universe to pop into existence from nothing with the Big Bang.

No one is saying that IS what happened. Cosmologists are saying it is a possibility. That it doesn't seem to make any sense is not the fault of the cosmos. There are many things that don't make any sense that are never the less proven to be true.

Secondly, what on Earth (or any place else for that matter) does atheists have to do with the discussion????? You think only atheists believe in a self propagating universe? Again your information is faulty.

So you are now ready to give up being a theist? I have given you proof that something can come from nothing. And please do not take my word for it. Do the research and you will see that what I have stated here is current thinking amongst quantum physicists.

And probably you have never taken the time to learn Logic because it is a logical fact that the universe could not have caused itself to exist. Some thing cannot cause itself to exist. For some thing to cause itself to exist it had to exist to do so and, once it existed there would be no need for it to cause itself to exist as it already existed. Do you understand the Logic here? There is no religion involved. Simply Logic.

 

[Shibolet]

one of the theories of the big bang is the growing and shrinking universe continually rebanging....

The name is "expansion" Wil. When Einstein was doing a researching on the expansion of the universe, he was asked from the audience if he believed in God. For an answer, he said that all his life was trying to catch God at His work of Creation. (from his book "Out of My Later Years") It is only obvious that he related the expansion of the universe to God's Creation. Take it as a joke or not but he didn't laugh at himself.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Does it mean that the hat of the magician was too full and the birds and rabbits had to jump out and fly all over? I know, rabbits don't fly but they took advantage of the scarring birds and found a way out of the hat in several directions. Embarrassing isn't it?

I don't understand what your trying to say here.

And probably you have never taken the time to learn Logic because it is a logical fact that the universe could not have caused itself to exist.

Logic is based on known or given facts, the our understanding of matter has evolved a great deal since we first asked the question. Sticking to 50 year old theories doesn't give you the points on this one.

The name is "expansion" Wil.

That's a different theory all together. Look up Big Crunch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[wil]

The name is "expansion" Wil. When Einstein was doing a researching on the expansion of the universe, he was asked from the audience if he believed in God. For an answer, he said that all his life was trying to catch God at His work of Creation. (from his book "Out of My Later Years") It is only obvious that he related the expansion of the universe to God's Creation. Take it as a joke or not but he didn't laugh at himself.

Misquotes and out of context remarks of Einstein on G!d are rampant...Eintsein quotes are like the bible....you can find a passage to prove your point...both sides of it.

I believe the old boy wasn't much of a believer... Wanna try something fun? Put his quotes in order over time and you get to see the Evolution of his thought....do the same for Paul...that is interesting as well.

 

[Shibolet]

I don't understand what your trying to say here.

Perhaps you are better off not to.

Logic is based on known or given facts, the our understanding of matter has evolved a great deal since we first asked the question. Sticking to 50 year old theories doesn't give you the points on this one.

First fact: The universe is composed of matter;
Second fact: Matter cannot cause itself to exist;
Resultant fact: Therefore, the universe was caused to exist.

Now, what could it have been to have caused the universe to exist other than the Primal Cause?

That's a different theory all together. Look up Big Crunch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think it is your duty to look up in the Wikipedia in order to learn the answer you want to give me.

 

[Shibolet]

Misquotes and out of context remarks of Einstein on G!d are rampant...Eintsein quotes are like the bible....you can find a passage to prove your point...both sides of it.

I believe the old boy wasn't much of a believer... Wanna try something fun? Put his quotes in order over time and you get to see the Evolution of his thought....do the same for Paul...that is interesting as well.

Okay, fair enough. So, let us set aside both of them and bring up from yourself an answer to my logical question if the universe caused itself to exist or not. Since I am sure you don't have an answer, what then caused the universe to exist?

 

[wil]

LOL....you are freakin hilarious!!!

Since I am sure you don't have an answer, then what caused the universe to exist?

Really?? You are sure I don't have an answer, but then you insist on one?

I don't know is fine with me. I am even pretty sure you don't know, but think you know, just like the others that differ from you but also think they know...

Just because you have an answer doesn't make it the right one....just as you discount everyone else's answer.

What caused G!d to exist?? And if G!d always was....why couldn't the universe always be?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Perhaps you are better off not to.

What is it you want to say here?

First fact: The universe is composed of matter;
Second fact: Matter cannot cause itself to exist;
Resultant fact: Therefore, the universe was caused to exist.

Now, what could it have been to have caused the universe to exist other than the Primal Cause?

You don't need to spam this, part to of your facts are under question, either we discuss that or not. Reposting the entire thing en every thread doesn't work in your interest.

I think it is your duty to look up in the Wikipedia in order to learn the answer you want to give me.

This I don't understand at all. Are you playing games because I'm not interested in that.

 

[wil]

You don't need to spam this, part to of your facts are under question, either we discuss that or not. Reposting the entire thing en every thread doesn't work in your interest.

I thought I was seeing this... wasn't willing to back track and check it out


but it would be nice if we didn't see that same cut and paste again... we are looking for thought shibolet, not a chevrolet assembly line spitting out the same NOVA repeatedly...

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

but it would be nice if we didn't see that same cut and paste again... we are looking for thought shibolet, not a chevrolet assembly line spitting out the same NOVA repeatedly...

Agreed, we want to share thoughts and ideas.

 

[Shibolet]

LOL....you are freakin hilarious!!!

Since I am sure you don't have an answer, then what caused the universe to exist?

You are not following me. Perhaps just looking for the punch lines of jokes. I meant to be sure that you did not have an answer to the logical fact that the universe could not have caused itself to exist. But an answer to what caused the universe to exist is totally different. There is a big difference between those two questions.

Really?? You are sure I don't have an answer, but then you insist on one?

You continue out of order. Remember that we are discussing Philosophy and not religion.

I don't know is fine with me. I am even pretty sure you don't know, but think you know, just like the others that differ from you but also think they know...

Are you sure? Do you think a teacher would ask a question he does not know the answer? He would not take too long to lose his job.

Just because you have an answer doesn't make it the right one....just as you discount everyone else's answer.

Well, as long as people do not acknowledge the works of Logic, my answer is right at least by default it is.

What caused G!d to exist?? And if G!d always was....why couldn't the universe always be?

If God was caused to exist, He would not be God. For something to be caused to exist it must be composed of matter. God is not. God is a Spiritual Being. (John 4:24) Then again, if God was caused to exist, what had caused Him to exist? Since the universe is not constitute of only things caused to exist, some thing by necessity would have to exist to have caused the first thing.

 

[Shibolet]

What is it you want to say here?

You don't need to spam this, part to of your facts are under question, either we discuss that or not. Reposting the entire thing en every thread doesn't work in your interest.

This I don't understand at all. Are you playing games because I'm not interested in that.

If you are not interested in what I have to say, you might as well ignore my posts and, no hurt feelings.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I was interested, but I don't feel this is going anywhere so I'll just bow out.

 

[Shibolet]

I thought I was seeing this... wasn't willing to back track and check it out

but it would be nice if we didn't see that same cut and paste again... we are looking for thought shibolet, not a chevrolet assembly line spitting out the same NOVA repeatedly...

What's the matter Wil, do I scare you? I thought you had what it takes to discuss the Truth with a Jew who has read your book.