What makes you think you are right about belief?

I believe the current thought is we are big banging unis out in the multiverse 'all the time' and that we've probably expanded and collapsed more than once...

but just because we don't know how it happened doesn't mean we have to make up some story with an invisible hand that has always been here to explain it...

it ain't 4,000 years ago anymore... unknowing is ok...
 
Sorry it's taken a while for me to get back here. :)

Yes, and most things concerning modern findings in physics are in micro or macro cosmos and thus outside our experience.

In the direct way, yes. We don't normally see bacteria lying around us. But we can see them, if we have a microscope and a dye to stain them with (so they stand out against the background). A telescope enables one to see objects normally too far or not bright enough for the unaided eye. Similarly, quantum effects in physics can be "experienced" indirectly, via a lab setup.

Sometimes it can be fairly simple. Wave/particle duality can be demonstrated with Young's double-slit setup, done by college freshmen with an ordinary light bulb and the metal foils with the slits. Of course, it does involve interpretation - we see a banded pattern when both slits are open to the light, a pattern which disappears if one of the slits is blocked. But even our everyday experience requires interpretation. The difference is that our brain interprets the data from our natural sensors automatically.

So, we seem to "see" things, like a car on the street, effortlessly, but there's actually a great deal of computation and interpretation inside our head, to recognize the eye input as representing a car. We're not aware of what our brain is doing in vision; we just "see" the final results. Somehow, we take this sensory experience as "real," while assuming data that has to be interpreted explicitly - because we lack a built-in sensory organ for it - is "less real." But that is a bias in our thinking, to privilege information from our senses over other kinds of information, such as what we get from an instrument. The latter is every bit as real as the former.

Of course I admit that scientific interpretation can be wrong - it has been wrong lots of times. What shows it wrong, however, is a better interpretation made later, perhaps when better information is available. Eyes can be wrong, too. That shimmering lake on the street on a hot day is an image of the sky, a mirage.

1) Whatever of the meanings you take for the "Putative beginning of time" ...

2) Now, I do not understand how the concept of Causality cannot be applied to the universe as a whole when all parts of it have been caused to exist...

3) If you read the book "Cosmos", Carl Sagan claims loud and clear that the big bang caused the universe to begin.

1) I used the word "putative" since, as far as I know, no one was around back then, to rule out the possibility that time extends back forever, with no beginning to it. Even the Big Bang theory, which is descriptive rather than causal, doesn't go back to time t = 0. Instead, it assumes a beginning, but only goes back to a time t = 10E-43 seconds it calls the "Planck Era." 10E-43 seconds is indeed very short, but it's still finitely long and not zero.

2) As for applying causality to the universe as a whole: My best understanding is that a causal relation is always between two events. If event A happens now, and then event B happens later, we say that A might cause B, although B cannot cause A. This is only a minimum condition, but it's the only one causal logic supplies. In other words, it's easier to disprove a cause than to prove one.

When we go to the universe as a whole, we run into a problem. By definition, the universe contains all events that have ever occurred. So, if we call the universe B as above, then we have no outside event A to compare it with.

3) All I remember from 1980 was Sagan intoning, "billions and billions of years..." Maybe 1980 is too close to the Planck Era for me. :D
 
In the direct way, yes. We don't normally see bacteria lying around us. But we can see them, if we have a microscope and a dye to stain them with (so they stand out against the background). A telescope enables one to see objects normally too far or not bright enough for the unaided eye. Similarly, quantum effects in physics can be "experienced" indirectly, via a lab setup.

Sometimes it can be fairly simple. Wave/particle duality can be demonstrated with Young's double-slit setup, done by college freshmen with an ordinary light bulb and the metal foils with the slits. Of course, it does involve interpretation - we see a banded pattern when both slits are open to the light, a pattern which disappears if one of the slits is blocked. But even our everyday experience requires interpretation. The difference is that our brain interprets the data from our natural sensors automatically.

So, we seem to "see" things, like a car on the street, effortlessly, but there's actually a great deal of computation and interpretation inside our head, to recognize the eye input as representing a car. We're not aware of what our brain is doing in vision; we just "see" the final results. Somehow, we take this sensory experience as "real," while assuming data that has to be interpreted explicitly - because we lack a built-in sensory organ for it - is "less real." But that is a bias in our thinking, to privilege information from our senses over other kinds of information, such as what we get from an instrument. The latter is every bit as real as the former.

Of course I admit that scientific interpretation can be wrong - it has been wrong lots of times. What shows it wrong, however, is a better interpretation made later, perhaps when better information is available. Eyes can be wrong, too. That shimmering lake on the street on a hot day is an image of the sky, a mirage.

Hello again, Hat!
By "outside our experience" I'm referring to how we are used to to forces around us. Gravity, friction, light, heat and physical objects. Some argue that we are biologically programmed to deal with these things around us in a way that is different from the micro/macro worlds.

When we reason as to the nature of light we think that it is a wave or it's a particle because in our experience we are either hit in the face by a beachvolleyball or the waves in the water. Not both.

In the micro/macro many of our forces do not exist and other rule the day, so even if we try to liken some phenomenons to something relatable (like volleyballs and water waves) it is really something different and will behave quite differently to what we might expect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feynman_diagram said:
Feynman proposed an interpretation of the positron as if it were an electron moving backward in time. Thus, antiparticles are represented as moving backward along the time axis in Feynman diagrams.

This is not intuitive and quite foreign to our understanding of the natural world.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that even though you didn't respond precisely to what I intended, it was all very relevant and I'm glad you posted it.
 
I'm really not sure. Beyond the veil or not though I am having a difficult time accepting that "THE TRUTH" is beyond words and conceptual thoughts. Of what use is a truth if it is beyond comprehension. And how would one identify this truth if one is not capable of using any process to understand it.

Hmm! Is the "THE TRUTH" something to be used? I, myself, never assumed it was ever comprehensible to our minds. It might be but that would say something about the nature of "THE TRUTH".
 
What we do not know is if causality breaks down when we are discussing the very beginning of this version of reality. To suggest that because causality works for everything we understand should mean that causality must also work for what we do not understand is a leap of logic that is spurious.

When we reason as to the nature of light we think that it is a wave or it's a particle because in our experience we are either hit in the face by a beachvolleyball or the waves in the water. Not both.

Both the above are perceptive, suggesting human thought comes with serious limitations. I don't doubt it. I have a hard time imagining an electron to begin with, much less one whose clock is running backwards. :p

There's nothing wrong with Shibolet's idea of "something ultimately behind everything." Except that it's untestable - The Oregon State classroom thing on theories strikes me as a bit pedantic, but there's a point to it. A theory is a guess, but not just any guess will do. It has to make a testable prediction.

So, I had a "theory of boiling frogs" that said their heat sense wouldn't detect changes in water temperature if these were too gradual. Someone told me it has been tested, and disproved (in favor of the frogs).

It may be where faith comes in. You can believe Shibolet's idea is "true" in some sense, and I admit it's attractive. Knowledge of that kind is probably outside the purview of science, though. :)
 
".....suggesting human thought comes with serious limitations".

Would it not be more to the point to suggest serious limitations of our senses? Humanity seems to have been short changed in this regard. Many other species have far superior senses to our own. A dog's hearing and sense of smell. An eagle's sense of sight. And so on. Humanity is barely average in all five of our senses.

What we lack in our senses - is perhaps balanced by our ability to think better than most other mammals?
 
There's nothing wrong with Shibolet's idea of "something ultimately behind everything."

Nope, I don't think any one of us have suggested he's wrong, just that he simplifys matters because he doesn't understand the science behind it. Neither do I so no better or worse.

What we lack in our senses - is perhaps balanced by our ability to think better than most other mammals?

As I understand it, much of our ability to sense is made up by the sense parts of the brain. Humans simply have less brain mass dedicated to senses (as well as less evolved sensors) then a lot of other animals. Compared to the total size, that is. That brain size and IQ levels isn't parallel is also interesting to the subject (which is way off topic now)
 
I believe the current thought is we are big banging unis out in the multiverse 'all the time' and that we've probably expanded and collapsed more than once...

but just because we don't know how it happened doesn't mean we have to make up some story with an invisible hand that has always been here to explain it...

it ain't 4,000 years ago anymore... unknowing is ok...

It does not matter the story you make up. If it proves to be logical, the benefit of the doubt is granted.
 
1) I used the word "putative" since, as far as I know, no one was around back then, to rule out the possibility that time extends back forever, with no beginning to it.

2) As for applying causality to the universe as a whole: My best understanding is that a causal relation is always between two events. If event A happens now, and then event B happens later, we say that A might cause B, although B cannot cause A. This is only a minimum condition, but it's the only one causal logic supplies. In other words, it's easier to disprove a cause than to prove one.

When we go to the universe as a whole, we run into a problem. By definition, the universe contains all events that have ever occurred. So, if we call the universe B as above, then we have no outside event A to compare it with.

3) All I remember from 1980 was Sagan intoning, "billions and billions of years..." Maybe 1980 is too close to the Planck Era for me. :D

Time cannot extend back forever because matter was caused to exist and time is an accident of matter in motion. For the scientist, matter began with the big bang. Hence the beginning of time. Since the Primal Cause is neither subject to time or space, there is nothing else to report to from before the big bang but to the Primal Cause since there is no caused without a cause.

You say above that it is easier to disprove a cause than to prove one. I can easily prove that you have been caused. Can you disprove that or any thing else you have in mind? I don't think so. Not logical.

The universe is all that there is; and this rules out the possibility of the theory of a multiverse. Since the universe is not eternal and the big bang becomes a fact, the probability of another universe could happen in a serial manner and not concomitantly.
 
Good grief, did you ever take a course in logic? Your concept of how to use logic is deeply flawed. Take a class. No offense intended here. Truly. Take a class.

Yes, I did it in my major on Philosophy but, according to your startling question above, you must be the one in need of such a course because you seem to be completely alien to the concept of Logic.
 
Okay Shib. I think we should allow each of us to have our own version of what logic is and leave it at that. Our two realities are never likely to align on this particular topic.

No! You don't have to jump off the wagon that fast. Just share with me your way to stare at Logic. Perhaps I am wrong to think that Logic, like truth, is only one. You have left me with the impression that there are different kinds of logic. Would you care elaborating on the issue?
 
1) Time cannot extend back forever because matter was caused to exist and time is an accident of matter in motion.

2) The universe is all that there is; and this rules out the possibility of the theory of a multiverse. Since the universe is not eternal and the big bang becomes a fact..

3) You say above that it is easier to disprove a cause than to prove one. I can easily prove that you have been caused...

All three items above may well be true. But only the last one is subject to more or less conclusive verification - we know that people start as fertilized eggs. I can be considered a continuation of my parents' cell lines. :)

Statement #2 is a matter of definition: the word "universe" is defined to include everything. Yet that doesn't mean that all of the universe is accessible to us. It may have domains from which no information can reach the Earth - and there's no easy way to know whether this is so.

With statement #1, we're in for rough sailing, since we don't really know what time is. Or what matter is. The only things we do know about them is that they are not independent of each other (Einstein, 1915), and that clocks and scales can be used to measure them quantitatively. But note that a quantity of time is measured only relative to another quantity of time - runners on the track versus the stopwatch, say. No absolute standards for either time or mass are known. I see no a priori reason to think that time must have had a beginning. The first principles needed to infer this aren't there yet.

In other words, the Big Bang is a theory based on best available information and understanding. It's accepted as "sound," but never as "proved." At least that's what I'm told by the physics majors. :)

".....suggesting human thought comes with serious limitations". Would it not be more to the point to suggest serious limitations of our senses?

I wouldn't underrate human sense organs. True, eagles can see mice on the ground from a mile up, and dogs can hear some high-frequency sounds we can't. Overall, our eyes and ears are still pretty good, better than the average in the animal world. Perhaps our sense of smell sucks - but then, you can't have everything. :)

As I understand it, much of our ability to sense is made up by the sense parts of the brain...

Ahh...the mystery of consciousness. All those correlations with neural activity are there. But why is "neural activity" privileged with awarenesses denied other kinds of activity, say that in liver cells?
 
Nice post, Hat. (Definition of nice post - the posterer agrees with the postee. Hah!).

Your points do follow the doctrine of logic, at least the way I was taught it. Shib's if/then statements are not a valid logical argument. He does not believe that though. So I'll let that be.

Actually I will disagree with you on our senses. They are really not very good at all. That they function as well as they do is due to some amazing interpolation that our brain does.

For instance there is a blind spot in the middle of our eyes. But we never actually see it under normal conditions. The brain does some mental juggling between the two eyes to 'fill in the information' that we cannot actually see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_spot_(vision)

To be specific though my comment was referring more to our inability to sense more than just a tiny sliver of the range of information that is around us. For instance our eyes can only perceive 0.0035% of the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

We do a bit better on sound. Humans on average can hear a little over half the sound range. On the other hand, we are dismal at being able to locate the distance of a heard sound.

And don't even get me started on the current cosmogical theories that suggest that we can perceive 5% of the matter that supposedly makes up the universe. Dark matter and dark energy being the bulk of the universe of which we can never perceive.

If there are Gods, they sure were stingy in entrusting us with capable senses to understand the reality in which we live.
 
We get what we need to survive and prosper, we've just grown a bit greedy now that we know that there is more. Sounds very human to me.
 
I guess everyone is different...I have way to much crap....way to much to survive...

Been waiting for my kids to graduate college so I can empty these storage sheds...whatever they don't want...you can have.
 
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