What does prayer do?

[Dan0813]

Wil expressed an interesting thought in another thread:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/how-to-pray-and-get-17198.html#post289961

I don't believe prayer changes the situation...it changes us...it allows us to change our perspective and grow through our trials.

This is a viewpoint I've heard before, but don't fully understand.

How exactly do you think prayer changes us?

Is it a supernatural effect that requires Divine assistance?

Is it a form of meditation that merely focuses the physical and mental resources that we already have? In this case, is it accurate to call it "prayer"?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is it a form of meditation that merely focuses the physical and mental resources that we already have?

That is it. Suggest an alternative word.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

What people call prayer really does vary a lot.

 

[Gordian Knot]

Prayer is a form of meditation. It differs form other forms of meditation only in that one is focusing the mind on a divine being and requesting assistance from it. Whereas if one is meditating on something other than a divine being it would not be considered prayer.

That is, the act of focusing the mental/spiritual forces we have is the same process whether we are focusing on a divine being or on our big toe!

 

[wil]

For some folks prayer is talking to G!d, and meditation is listening.

for me a prayer like, "I need an A on this spelling test, please Jesus, Mary and Joseph help", or "I pray for a Rolls Royce, better job, better family relationship, more rain, bumper crops, new bicycle, world peace, father in hospita...l" is a prayer that says... "Yo G!d, the creator of the entire universe and all that is...fine job you've done here...and say there omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent being that can handle everything all at once...not trying to be critical, but this lowly human over here as noticed you have made a mistake, just sayin...and if you corrected this one thing today...all would be well in the world...and yeah, that war in the middle east that has been raging since your book was written...you may be busy with that...no MISSION ACCOMPLISHED over there yet....but anyway, once you get this done...I'll get a hold of you next time I spot a problem."

How do we change our perspective?? Take a breath, realize it all ain't about you, let it go, learn to be one with this world as it is one with you.

 

[Thomas]

Is it a form of meditation that merely focuses the physical and mental resources that we already have? In this case, is it accurate to call it "prayer"?

Meditation is not necessarily prayer, any more than by meditating do you become Buddhist. But it is a step along the way, if prayer is what you seek.

There are many 'structures' of prayer and they are, of course, all human structures. It depends where you look and when ... but it's a useful process, as it does help towards understanding.

What should be understood is the way of prayer, like anything else, is a discipline. Sadly, for many, the idea of self-discipline is regarded with some skepticism, so I don't think you'll find many proponents of that viewpoint. But then I don't think you'll find as many adept in prayer, or meditation, as you'll find those ready to tell you what it is and what it isn't.

 

[Thomas]

As I said elsewhere, I don't think prayer is about 'answers' or 'remedies'.

It's about communion.

 

[Gordian Knot]

What does prayer do? Have to say I do not know, as I do not do prayer. My suspicion though is that, like meditation, prayer is not about any one single result. There are many forms of prayer based upon each individual's beliefs, needs, desires and so forth. Put simply, various people pray for various reasons.

Some are looking for an answer to a question. Some are looking to connect with a divine power. Some are praying for support in areas of their personality that they perceive they lack. Such as self confidence, anger management, etc. Some are seeking an understanding to an event or events that seem to have no good purpose. Some pray much like mediation. To achieve a stillness in the mind as a relief from the day to day chaos of our minds.

 

[progettoecumene]

Prayers have different kind of ways it works. We can talk of worshipping or asking for something.
When we pray, we use words. If you have read Plato's Timeo, you know that words are not simple sounds, yet they're as strong as the thing they represent. As anything in the Universe, words have something that Plato calls ideal shape. The ideal shape of a book is the meaning of its words, so that books like Bible and Koran are very important, and the ideal shape of a word is its meaning. This has been proved by the experiments of prof. Masaru Emoto on water. In the same way, worship prayers are important because the real essence of them is their meaning. Thinking that we have to worship God because He needs it sounds like absurd.
Then we have meditation prayers, the mantras. They are always connected to the ideal shape I have told you about. When someone concentrates on the meaning of a phrase, not systematically but as if you just look at them, you can acknowledge its ideal shape.
When we pray for something, on the other hand, we use both the ideal shape of the words and the power of the law of attraction. In this case, we need absolutely to have faith in God. What does Torah say? Abraham had faith in God and for that he was considered righteous. What does Torah Lords prayer say? THY will be done. And what does Islam mean? Acceptation of God's will.

 

[Thomas]

If you have read Plato's Timeo, you know that words are not simple sounds, yet they're as strong as the thing they represent.

Well said! This is the essence of traditional 'symbolism'.

But it stands contrary to the common Western mindset, which chooses rather to see the power of words as being purely what the speaker invests in them.

The ideal shape of a book is the meaning of its words, so that books like Bible and Koran are very important, and the ideal shape of a word is its meaning.

Oh, bravo! When I studied theology, there was great importance placed on the 'shape' of things, rather than their materiality.

The story of Textual Criticism – and it extends into every sphere – is too often the story of an investigation that becomes so engrossed in the material forensic detail that the shape of the thing is lost altogether. The old adage says 'the whole is greater than the sum of its parts', but the materialist view tends just to examine the parts rather than appreciate the sublime towards which they point.

In the end words, actions, deeds etc., lose all meaning.

In the same way, worship prayers are important because the real essence of them is their meaning.

People are too ready to criticise others for what they see as 'naive' or 'superstitious' ... in their judgement it never occurs that the essence might well be far more profound than anything they had in mind.

Thinking that we have to worship God because He needs it sounds like absurd.

It is absurd. Yet how easily many ascribe this absurdity to the other's Deity.

Then we have meditation prayers, the mantras. They are always connected to the ideal shape I have told you about. When someone concentrates on the meaning of a phrase, not systematically but as if you just look at them, you can acknowledge its ideal shape.

At which point 'contemplation' transcends 'investigation'.

What does Torah Lords prayer say? THY will be done. And what does Islam mean? Acceptation of God's will.

Absolutely ... But again, in the West, 'my will', or 'my desires' seem to take priority over God. It's what works for me that matters, not what the Deity, or the Cosmos, wills.

Have you studied symbolism at all? You seem to be there in essence so I just wondered.

 

[Gordian Knot]

Progetto said "The ideal shape of a book is the meaning of its words, so that books like Bible and Koran are very important, and the ideal shape of a word is its meaning."

Welcome! There is a lot of good philosophy backing up your words. This one about Plato though, is not quite right. Plato believed that for everything in this reality there was a 'perfect form'. All books in our reality are but imperfect reflections of the perfect book. Plato's forms reside outside our reality of space and time.

So far so good. Where we part ways is whether the content of any book makes it closer or farther from the 'perfect book'. Nothing in Plato's writings (that I am aware of) suggest there is any such concept. All books are but faulty reflections of that perfect book beyond our reality. Whether it be the Bible or a Danielle Steele novel, any physical book in this reality is but a distorted form of the perfect book.

 

[Gordian Knot]

Thomas said
"Well said! This is the essence of traditional 'symbolism'.

But it stands contrary to the common Western mindset, which chooses rather to see the power of words as being purely what the speaker invests in them."

There is no denying that the common Western mindset has a distorted view of the power of meditation and prayer. At least in the sense that they are ignorant of both traditional symbolism and modern understanding.

I am going to suggest an alternate possibility to your comment that the ideal is necessarily the symbolism of a God(s).

The essence of meditation and prayer, from my point of view, is to first understand the nature of reality as we see it. Science moves more and more towards the concept that we live in a vibrating universe. Everything in our reality is vibration. Scholars such as Plato described it as sound. Not a bad analogy since we know sound is nothing more than vibrations that our bodies translate into said sound.

When one concentrates on the vibration of everything, one can begin to understand the power of such, and perhaps begin to manipulate it.

These vibrations, from a religious viewpoint, can be said to emanate from Gods. But that is not the only possibility. The vibrations of our reality may be simply the substance of our reality. No divine presence required.

In the end I don't think it matters where a person defines the vibrations as coming from. That it is about the vibrations is the key. Scholars from the past (and present) have varying definitions of this fundamental aspect of reality. To have read and know of these theories is important to come to a personal understanding. One never knows which definition will be the key that unlocks an individual's way of 'getting it'.

The flaw of the West, and I would propose all of humanity, is that too many have no interest or respect in what has come before. We have this incredible database of human wisdom and folly that has been recorded going back at least 5,000 years. And most people don't care about anything older than yesterday.

 

[wil]

While in general we don't care about anything older than tomorrow....

The common western mindset...is not quite so common.

And I wouldn't be quite so quick to judge materialism...without which this multi continental conversation would not be occurring.

 

[Gordian Knot]

Was I judging materialism? If so, how so? Anywho, I have no complaint with the reality as we understand it through our physical senses. We see reality this way because it is how we can see it.

My point was that underlying the common reality we walk through every day, there is a completely different reality that underpins the one we use. Similar to machine code upon which computer languages are built. The machine code of reality is that everything is a form of vibration.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

And I wouldn't be quite so quick to judge materialism...without which this multi continental conversation would not be occurring.

I encourage judging the society around us. Materialism isn't good in itself it has just produced some good stuff for us today. We must be aware, I think, of where we are heading, and there is plenty bad with materialism, no?

 

[Thomas]

I am going to suggest an alternate possibility to your comment that the ideal is necessarily the symbolism of a God(s).

Not sure I said 'necessarily', but go on ...

... Science moves more and more towards the concept that we live in a vibrating universe. Everything in our reality is vibration. Scholars such as Plato described it as sound. Not a bad analogy since we know sound is nothing more than vibrations that our bodies translate into said sound.

And in the Bible God 'said', and then we have 'Aum' ... I'm not saying the Ancients were aware ... actually ... perhaps what I am saying were the ancients comprehended, in perhaps an inchoate and naive way, what science has taken thousands of years to discover for itself ... but that's just a contemplation, not a statement ...

When one concentrates on the vibration of everything, one can begin to understand the power of such, and perhaps begin to manipulate it.

Well the idea of manipulation is, I suppose, from the scientific side, although there are plenty here who 'manipulate' sacra doctrina to suit their own designs.

The traditional idea is, as I'm sure you know, to 'attune' oneself to 'the music of the spheres'. The modern notion is that the spheres are obliged to listen to my 'music'.

These vibrations, from a religious viewpoint, can be said to emanate from Gods. But that is not the only possibility. The vibrations of our reality may be simply the substance of our reality. No divine presence required.

Quite. I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I have argued against 'Intelligent Design' as a poof of God, whilst I regard classical ID as a statement of faith.

Scholars from the past (and present) have varying definitions of this fundamental aspect of reality. To have read and know of these theories is important to come to a personal understanding. One never knows which definition will be the key that unlocks an individual's way of 'getting it'.

I agree, with the proviso that consumerism has tricked people into believing that, on the basis that there are many keys ... invent your own.

The flaw of the West, and I would propose all of humanity, is that too many have no interest or respect in what has come before. We have this incredible database of human wisdom and folly that has been recorded going back at least 5,000 years. And most people don't care about anything older than yesterday.

Oh, so true!

I stand in awe of the Greek philosopher who stuck two sticks in the ground, and worked out from the angle of their shadows that the world was round and roughly 24,000 miles in diameter. I am in awe of Euclid. I'm in awe of Einstein and Dirac and many many others.

Today, people assume that because they have knowledge at their fingertips, they are better than their forebears. They are 'more advanced'. They have 'progressed'. They are dazzled by the glamour of the tech at their disposal.

But has anything changed, really?

Read the comedies of the Greeks. The satires. The tragedies. The love poetry. The eulogies. Can we say it better today?

No. It's timeless.

Nothing has changed essentially. We are exactly the same. We have more facts to hand, more things on mind, more distractions. More diversions. And so we're more lost and confused than ever.

 

[Thomas]

While in general we don't care about anything older than tomorrow....

You've said as much, often.

The common western mindset...is not quite so common.

Go on ...

And I wouldn't be quite so quick to judge materialism...without which this multi continental conversation would not be occurring.

No, that's the 'common western mindset' speaking! That's not what we criticise when we criticise materialism.

The point is, we do not decry modern medicine, computers, etc., etc. ... we decry the mindset that assumes that's all there is.

 

[wil]

And in the Bible God 'said', and then we have 'Aum' ... I'm not saying the Ancients were aware ... actually ... perhaps what I am saying were the ancients comprehended, in perhaps an inchoate and naive way, what science has taken thousands of years to discover for itself ... but that's just a contemplation, not a statement ...

And I believe they did....they grocked but couldn't fully describe that in the beginning there was a tear in the space time continuum, a vibration or some such happenstance they and I clearly don't understand so explain to others... and so as others tried to tear apart what they divined...they kept adding things to the explanation to satisfy the masses and an invisible sky being did just that.

Wanna change your perspective, change your future, change your vibration.

See that, see the vibrational change? No? That is just it, you can't see the change, you can't see the vibration, you can only see the result...the response... wait for it.

 

[Thomas]

And I believe they did....they grocked but couldn't fully describe that in the beginning there was a tear in the space time continuum...

Didn't have to, all that's 'local' stuff. Scripture isn't a science manual.

And, actually, there wasn't a tear in the space time continuum. That's just you making stuff up. There was no space, no time, no continuum, that all came after.

See? Today you're doing exactly what you're accusing them of doing, which is making stuff up in the face on not knowing.

And again, 'an invisible sky being' is most offensive and, frankly, points to your ignorance rather than theirs.

 

[Thomas]

... for me a prayer like, "I need an A on this spelling test, please Jesus, Mary and Joseph help", or "I pray for a Rolls Royce, better job, better family relationship, more rain, bumper crops, new bicycle, world peace, father in hospita...l"

What am i not surprised that you think that way? I remember some minor celeb on TV extolling the wonders of Buddhist chanting: "I wanted a new Porsche, so I chanted for it, and got one!" I'm sure the Buddha was pleased. Unity seems to preach the same message, contrary to what Christ actually said.

"Yo G!d, the creator of the entire universe and all that is...fine job you've done here...and say there omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent being that can handle everything all at once...not trying to be critical, but this lowly human over here as noticed you have made a mistake, just sayin...

I wish you'd read Scripture instead of just rubbishing it.
You think you'd make a better job of being God than God, eh?

How do we change our perspective?? Take a breath, realize it all ain't about you, let it go, learn to be one with this world as it is one with you.

Now you know you don't believe that for a moment. You've declared here the opposite, that it is all about you, and you've defended that.