Thomas, it isn't MY opinion or MY prejudice or MY belief.
It is a fact, written in the newspapers, carried in signs, touted on street corners with bullhorns....folks here like the old white man father figure that Michelangelo painted on the ceiling of the chapel.
I am NOT arguing that G!d isn't a being..I BELIEVE G!d isn't a being.
I believe you are reading your prejudices against me into my words. Which is a shame, I so enjoy discussing stuff with you.
I only disagreed with your 'without a doubt' as many folks have doubts and different opinions...5 or more denominations of Judaism, 70 for Islam and over 3,000 for Christianity....there are some doubts and differences ..... and each has argued their point enough with the one sitting next to them in the pew to get up and write a treatise, nail it to a door and start a new group.
It is a fact, written in the newspapers, carried in signs, touted on street corners with bullhorns....folks here like the old white man father figure that Michelangelo painted on the ceiling of the chapel.
I am NOT arguing that G!d isn't a being..I BELIEVE G!d isn't a being.
I believe you are reading your prejudices against me into my words. Which is a shame, I so enjoy discussing stuff with you.
I only disagreed with your 'without a doubt' as many folks have doubts and different opinions...5 or more denominations of Judaism, 70 for Islam and over 3,000 for Christianity....there are some doubts and differences ..... and each has argued their point enough with the one sitting next to them in the pew to get up and write a treatise, nail it to a door and start a new group.
Devils' Advocate
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Have been following the discourse between you two for a little while now. For what it is worth, and it may not be worth anything, but for what it is - the two of you seem to be perpetually talking at each other rather than with each other.
You both come from your own POV and you both seem to base your arguments on your own POVs. Little wonder that the outcome is that you both reject what the other says out of hand. Little actual communication is taking place at all.
I'm not trying to be a dime store psychologist here. My comments are what came to me as I read your broadsides back and forth at each other. Thoughts?
You both come from your own POV and you both seem to base your arguments on your own POVs. Little wonder that the outcome is that you both reject what the other says out of hand. Little actual communication is taking place at all.
I'm not trying to be a dime store psychologist here. My comments are what came to me as I read your broadsides back and forth at each other. Thoughts?
Yup, we are on the opposite side of the pond often...
and yes I have issues allowing bold assertions to sit uncountered...
and I'd also like to say that not only have appreciated many of your posts, but appreciate this one as well...
and yes I have issues allowing bold assertions to sit uncountered...
and I'd also like to say that not only have appreciated many of your posts, but appreciate this one as well...
A Cup Of Tea
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These two have been at it since the beginning of time, for this forum, I have also comment on the same facts but I doubt things will change any time soon. I think both carry valid arguments but direct them past each others points.
In my own defence I would say I do keep trying to get passed subjective rants about how awful Americans are, and back on topic ... I do not accept that negative examples should not set the measure by which everyone should be judged.
Perhaps it's a cultural thing, but it seems to me that negative stereotypes are considered 'ad hominem' and quite often offensive. I do not endorse 'Political Correctness', but I admit I do rise to the challenge when presented with offensive stereotypical assumptions about others.
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
Da, you said,
"I'm not trying to be a dime store psychologist here..."
--> Sometimes it IS a good idea to be a dime store psychologist. This is one of those times. Your dime store analysis of what is happening is right on the money.
"I'm not trying to be a dime store psychologist here..."
--> Sometimes it IS a good idea to be a dime store psychologist. This is one of those times. Your dime store analysis of what is happening is right on the money.
S
Shibolet
Guest
Almost all ancient peoples had a flood to talk about. Perhaps a flood of some sort did happen somewhere. The Jewish People as any other ancient people had its version of a flood too. The garden was an allegory, the big fish was in a dream which becomes perfectly possible that way, and so forth.
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
I know this is a discussion on Christianity, but those 3 events are recorded in Islam as well, so I figured I would give a different option of explanation.
The garden, likely could have been paradise (or heaven as defined in Christianity). God knew the outcome beforehand but couldn't cast them out of paradise for a test without them knowing their reason. (I know the Bible makes it sound like God was surprised they ate it, but pretty sure most if not all Abrahamic faiths believe he is omnipitent, omnipresent, and free of the restriction of time.
The Flood, Miracles are not required to follow the laws of everyday life. Or it was a flashmelt/flash refreeze of icecaps. Or it was Local and percieved as all over.
Jonah (PBUH) and the fish/whale: again not required to follow physics because it is a miracle. Or a divine premonition (SP?) of what might happen if he disobeyed God's commands to him.
Anyone who has seen flyovers of floods of the Mississippi, Phillipines, or Bangladesh knows that it sure seems like the water is everywhere....and yeah, due to this a lot of folks have their flood stories (mountainous folks don't)
And the big fish is known to be a op ed piece much like Gulliver's Travels...speaking of and mocking the ruling party with impunity, yet also with 'what me? I didn't mean that' out available.
And the big fish is known to be a op ed piece much like Gulliver's Travels...speaking of and mocking the ruling party with impunity, yet also with 'what me? I didn't mean that' out available.
Anyone with a shred of nous knows the Bible is not a history book.
It's only fundamentalists who insist on making this kind of argument: right say yay and the left say nay, and each as wrong as the other.
Some read in search of wisdom, others search for stuff to scoff at.
It's only fundamentalists who insist on making this kind of argument: right say yay and the left say nay, and each as wrong as the other.
Some read in search of wisdom, others search for stuff to scoff at.
S
Shibolet
Guest
1 - In my understanding, the garden was an allegory for the granting of Divine attributes to man like intellect and freewill.
2 - The only reason for the casting away of man out of the Garden of Eden was the fact that the Divine attribute of eternity could not be shared with man and that only God is eternal. (Gen. 3:22,23)
3 - I do believe that God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent but once the attribute of freewill was granted to man He would not interfere with man's choice to do good or evil. (Gen. 4:7; Deut. 30:19)
4 - I am of the opinion that it was local and perceived to be all over.
5 - The case of Jonah was not a miracle but a dream to convey the message that God being a God of the whole world, His mercy reached beyond Israel all the way to Nineveh in Assyria.
Hi BigJoeNobody –
The Fall is the result of human vanity, not a failure of a test.
I would say a paradisical state, but not the final state.
We don't accept the idea of a 'test'.
The Fall is the result of human vanity, not a failure of a test.
Yes, they do.
I think that's the case.
I'm not even sure Jonah in the whale counts as a 'miracle'.
I would further say the garden signifies a capacity to know God, as much as God chooses to reveal Himself to man.
I see it as man assuming the divine attributes are his also ...
Yes. I think everyone conveniently forgets that aspect, as it makes man responsible for his actions, not God.
Yes. Seems that way.
Quite. I think people are too busy looking at Jonah and not God.
S
Shibolet
Guest
1 - And how did you want it to have been, that the dogs also shared the Divine attributes with God? Where living beings are moved by instinct there is no free will or intellect.
2 - That's a very intelligent thought. Otherwise, it would be unjust for man to be punished for his wrongdoings.