Pope Francis: Yes, dogs can go to heaven

[Devils' Advocate]

DA,

I see animals souls as being just as eternal as human souls. Would you agree?

Yes I would agree with that. And even more than that. I limited my view of cosmology to stay on point of this discussion, i.e. humans versus animals. In truth my view is that everything in the universe is soul. Soul is not a separate thing that resides within us. Soul is us, and everything else as well. Again, though, I am not using the term 'soul' in a traditional theological definition.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I love authoritative discussions of the unknown.

Don't you think it's an authoritative discussion on what the Catholic church holds as true.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

You're right! I should have said 'animal', or perhaps 'created'... I thought it was!


Not exactly.

I'm saying that anything created, including the soul, is not eternal, but that the soul can enter into a union with the Uncreate, and by this enter into eternity.

So it's not the soul as such, it's the quality of that which lives and moves in the soul that determines its possibility of realising its potential.

The Hebrew tradition observes these distinction, of qualities that are inherent in the soul – nephesh, the soul acording to its nature – and qualities that are not inherent but indwelling – neshamah – and which transcend the nature of the soul.

Christians follow the same distinctions, and I would have thought Moslems do also. I think all three traditions hold that plants, animals and man have souls. I would say minerals do, too.

Whether animals have transcendent souls is open to question, but it's not one that bothers me.

I rather think the question says something about the idea of heaven as an anthropomorphic ideal.

I know in Islam humans and animals have souls, although animal souls aren't specified as to a reward in the Quran, probably due to the fact they cannot communicate in our speach and therefore wouldn't understand the words. Although I've never heard of anything but eternal souls from the point they were created forward. Not sure about that one, however, if there is no eternal soul for those who do not adhere to God, how is there a punishment after this life for those who disobey.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

DA,

You said,

"Soul is not a separate thing that resides within us. Soul is us, and everything else as well. Again, though, I am not using the term 'soul' in a traditional theological definition."

--> The word you are looking for is consciousness.

I once took a tour of the large Buddhist temple in Los Angeles. The tour guide told me how he often gets the question, "What is consciousness?" because he uses the word a lot in his narration, and he was having a hard time defining it.

I told him that everything in the universe is consciousness. I tapped on a nearby brick wall and said that even a brick wall is consciousness, what I call "standing-still consciousness".

In order to define consciousness, we would need something that is not consciousness, so that we could compare the two. But it is impossible to find something that is not consciousness, so it is impossible to define consciousness.

 

[wil]

I know in Islam humans and animals have souls, although animal souls aren't specified as to a reward in the Quran, probably due to the fact they cannot communicate in our speach and therefore wouldn't understand the words. Although I've never heard of anything but eternal souls from the point they were created forward. Not sure about that one, however, if there is no eternal soul for those who do not adhere to God, how is there a punishment after this life for those who disobey.

Why should there be?

Why would any G!d worth his salt have an ego so large he needed to be obeyed?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

In order to define consciousness, we would need something that is not consciousness, so that we could compare the two. But it is impossible to find something that is not consciousness, so it is impossible to define consciousness.

Then I don't think it's the word consciousness you're looking for, because that actually have a definition.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

But you don't believe in definitions! Or so you've said.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Why should there be?

Why would any G!d worth his salt have an ego so large he needed to be obeyed?

He doesn't NEED to be obeyed. He has no needs. But in most faiths he has given you a choice to obey or not. Obey and be rewarded, or disobey and be punished. It is entirely your choice. He created all of this and you, and if you would like to go on and be rewarded, you must give him what he asks (AKA obey). If you don't, He gave you life, and you didn't appreciate it. Why would he reward you.

I hope it is obvious that I don't mean you specifically wil. You is referring to anyone. And this is (hopefully) obviously just my opinion according to my beliefs.

 

[wil]

Why would he punish anyone or reward anyone if (s)he didn't have any needs?

Sounds pretty passive aggressive to me.

give him what he asks? obey...pretty needy...low self esteem...

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

But you don't believe in definitions! Or so you've said.

The difference here is that words can be defined, I can define consciousness. What you're referring to is me including wider definitions then the one sentences definitions given in most dictionaries. The wiki article on consciousness for example is about ten thousand words and I'm sure more could be said.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Why would he punish anyone or reward anyone if (s)he didn't have any needs?

These are unrelated. He has no needs, doesn't mean he has no wants. He loves you, and wants you to succeed in the test of life, but he is also just. You must earn the reward or you deserve punishment. In my faith, there are differing levels of hell. All are a punishment, but some are not as severe as others. The deepest and worst punishment is reserved for those who are hypocrites and believe in Allah and choose not to do what he commanded.

Sounds pretty passive aggressive to me.

give him what he asks? obey...pretty needy...low self esteem...

by doing the commands he gives you are you giving him anything? If he says don't eat Pork, and you don't, has he gained anything? No. But by doing that you have gained his favor. If you do eat it, has he lost anything? No. But you have lost his favor. Can these losses be reconciled, yes. He has given a path to reconciliation for almost all sins. That is his Mercy.

 

[wil]

gained his favor.... he wants....but not needs...that is different?

why does (s)he want us to jump through hoops?